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Do you "know," Jesus or do you know about HIm?

sermonindex Dec 29, 2008

As a former Catholic, I gave mental assent to the fact that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for my sins. I readily believed that in my head. The fact was, I did not know Him. Its not the knowing about Him or the giving mental assent to abstract truths that save a man, its about actually “knowing,” Him. Trusting Him completely and surrendering your whole life to Him. This is a work of the heart, not of the head. You cannot know Jesus through your intellect, no more than you can know Napoleon. One is dead, the other is alive and must be met, this is a meeting of the heart.


Yet, by merely giving mental assent to a few sentences, can that possibly save? No, and it did not and does not. So how is it that it can have went unnoticed for so long. Most have hidden (admittedly unknowingly) in Romans chapter 7. To me, there are three broad categories of people that can be found dwelling in the world of Romans 7, the world of “oh wretched man that I am.” First there is the man who gave a mere mental assent to abstract truth and is still dead in his sins but does not know it and believes he is having a Romans 7 experience. This man never lost his life for the sake of Christ, was not willing to give up everything and put all of his trust in Jesus.


Second group is the genuine Christian who has taken up camp in Romans 7 and feels safer in his prison of sin, does not reckon himself to be free and looks to himself rather than Christ for his strength(began in the Spirit and is now attempting to finish in the flesh)When he looks at himself he only sees his sin.


Third group, the Christian that is passing through and onto Romans 8. He has struggled with his sin and thrashed and thrashed and is now about to reach desperation. He has rightly concluded that he has a sin nature and will eventually cry out”who will deliver me from this body of death?” This journey is vital for every Christian. For if we, at the beginning, have a head knowledge of the fact that we can never overcome sin, and therefore “sin boldly,’ relying on grace, then that grace is cheap grace and no grace at all.

But, if after having walked the narrow path we eventually come to the conclusion that we can never overcome sin, then we stop looking at ourselves and look to Jesus. It must be pointed out though, that when Paul is writing this, it is the writings of a man very sensitive to the Holy Spirit. What he describes in Romans 7 is not the path of a man who walked about sinning without a care.

The only person who can discover the truth of Romans 8 is the man that has struggled and failed. And when I say struggled, I am not talking about people who are going about murdering or sleeping around or drunks or people who were still in bondage to the sins of their life before Christ, I am talking about the people who , in Christ, overcame all of that and yet still came to the conclusion of the end of Romans 7. To them, lies the glorious freedom of Romans 8. And to them is still the requirement of “abiding continually,” to be intimate.

This intimacy, this presence is the key to all aspects of our Christianity. There is no difficulty in Christendom today that could not be resolved by the presence of God. That is why it all comes back to Calvary. Calvary is the expression of absolute Love, absolute surrender, absolute victory. It is the totality of the expression of God’s love for the world. To understand the cross and its meaning more deeply is to know God more deeply. That can be said in reverse and have the exact same meaning.To know God more deeply is to understand the cross on a deeper level. The more you understand the cross, the deeper you “know,” God, the less you care about yourself, your rights, your agenda and your circumstances.

For on the cross we see the highest expression of “not my will but thine be done.” To understand the cross more deeply is a revelation. To know God more deeply is a revelation, an encounter with the living God Himself. Revelation comes by the presence of God. Therefore all understanding of Spiritual things come by a revelation by the Holy Spirit, and can come no other way. It is impossible for the carnal mind to understand Spiritual things. So, without a revelation, without an encounter, all we have is a head knowledge.
To stand in the light of God, and be totally transparent and for the light of God to penetrate every particle of your being is something that truly defies description.

The English language, in all of its beauty, is at a loss to describe this. The mighty prophet of God cries out “Woe is me, for I am a man undone.” Now this sounds like a negative thing, but of course it is not, it is a penetrating thing. To come to this place we must pass the alter, and the alter is a place of sacrifice. Too long has the Church leaders called out “come forward and be blessed, come forward and get healed, come forward and be prayed for, come forward and get something. You dont get anything from the alter, you bring something, its a place of sacrifice. So, unless the Church as a whole understands this, they are destined to stay out in the courtyards and not enter into(past the alter) the inner sanctum. The courtyard is Cain’s court, this is the place where most of the soulish activity of the church takes place. Its not a bad thing if it leads you to the alter, but more often than not, it leads you deeper into the soul. The soulish experience belongs to the dwellers of of Romans 7, the Spiritual experience, the presence of God, belongs to those who will walk in Romans 8.

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T
tjservant Dec 29, 2008

Too long has the Church leaders called out “come forward and be blessed, come forward and get healed, come forward and be prayed for, come forward and get something. You dont get anything from the alter, you bring something, its a place of sacrifice. So, unless the Church as a whole understands this, they are destined to stay out in the courtyards and not enter into(past the alter) the inner sanctum.

Amen.

Thanks for sharing this brother.

sermonindex Dec 29, 2008

Yes brother, its time to come to the alter, to sacrifice and press on in.....brother Frank

K
kathleen1 Dec 30, 2008

This is a wonderful truth, simply expressed, so anyone can understand. Thanks for sharing the wisdom the Lord has given you.

John 17:3 says AND THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE THAT THEY MAY KNOW THEE, THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM THOU HAS SENT....

That word know implies an intimate and personal knowledge of, as a husband and wife. We cannot have eternal life if we do not join ourselves intimately to Him, through prayer, and reading His Word, and fellowship with Him. If we have no time for these three, then sadly, we will be among those who hear "Depart from Me, I know you not."

G
GodsFire Dec 30, 2008

One again Brother Appolus, you are well informed by our Lord.

We are destined to stay in the outer court as long as we are satisfied with only knowing about God

sermonindex Dec 30, 2008

Since you put the thread in a form of a question I would like to answer.

I would say that you cannot know Him without knowing about Him. I too am a former catholic and I though I believed in God, but did not know Him, I can also safely say that I did not really know anything about Him either. I did not know Him, nor did I know my own sin, until someone taught me who He really is...in context...in His Word. So I can say today that I really know Jesus, and I really know about Him also.

Thanks,

Michael

sermonindex Dec 30, 2008

Hi Kathleen...you write..

"That word know implies an intimate and personal knowledge of, as a husband and wife. We cannot have eternal life if we do not join ourselves intimately to Him, through prayer, and reading His Word, and fellowship with Him. If we have no time for these three, then sadly, we will be among those who hear "Depart from Me, I know you not."

Yes dear sister, its the same "know," as in Matthew 1:25.

sermonindex Dec 31, 2008

Hi Godsfire...I agree with your comments. I think the interesting thing for me is that there are many different categories to those who are dwelling in the outer court. I know that I do not dwell in the presence of God continually, nor could I. Kinda like the "mountaintop," experience, no one dwells there continually. Yet, as with all of our Chritianity, we must strive "to be perfect," not in a legalistic sense, or by our own strength, but we must continually strive "enter in." If it is within our power to forgive, then we must forgive(and remember, when I say "our power," I mean the power that God gave us to overcome) Or if we have the choice to love our enemies, but we choose not to, these and others are examples of roadblocks or an unwillingness to "sacrifice," which often is what unforgiveness is. So, I must continually ask myself, what is stopping me from entering into the fullness of God, today. I cannot formulize it, but I can take steps to do what the Lord has commanded me to do and therefore postion myself correctly....OK, I am rambling now :) God bless....brother Frank

sermonindex Dec 31, 2008

Hi Michael...you write ....

"I did not know Him, nor did I know my own sin, until someone taught me who He really is...in context...in His Word."

Would you mind explaining the above sentence in a little more detail, I think it may be an important point to discuss....brother Frank

P
psalm1 Jan 4, 2009

this is truly the crux of the matter.To know about him or to know him.

Has anyone mentioned worship?
It is being intimate with Jesus.

I was in the spirit on the Lords day said John before his great encounter with Jesus on patmos

sermonindex Jan 4, 2009

Hi Psalm, it says in the original post ..

"This intimacy, this presence is the key to all aspects of our Christianity. There is no difficulty in Christendom today that could not be resolved by the presence of God. That is why it all comes back to Calvary. Calvary is the expression of absolute Love, absolute surrender, absolute victory. It is the totality of the expression of God’s love for the world. To understand the cross and its meaning more deeply is to know God more deeply. That can be said in reverse and have the exact same meaning.To know God more deeply is to understand the cross on a deeper level. The more you understand the cross, the deeper you “know,” God, the less you care about yourself, your rights, your agenda and your circumstances."............brother Frank


P
psalm1 Jan 4, 2009

"This intimacy, this presence is the key to all aspects of our Christianity. There is no difficulty in Christendom today that could not be resolved by the presence of God. That is why it all comes back to Calvary. Calvary is the expression of absolute Love, absolute surrender, absolute victory. It is the totality of the expression of God’s love for the world. To understand the cross and its meaning more deeply is to know God more deeply. That can be said in reverse and have the exact same meaning.To know God more deeply is to understand the cross on a deeper level. The more you understand the cross, the deeper you “know,” God, the less you care about yourself, your rights, your agenda and your circumstances."............brother Frank

amen to this!!

My personal encounter with Jesus came initially as did the apostle Paul.
Not with the voice and the scales but nonetheless an encounter that 'arrested' me.

I learned about the cross later. Our church never had a hymnal. We sang from our bible.
The worship leader would say open your bibles to.........
And me not knowing squat (still dont) would open my bible and think 'what in the world are they doing,you cant sing from a bible'.
This was to begin a strength in my walk spiritually that I still draw on. His presence comes and sometimes it is to just sit with him.
He is real and alive. I know him as where he is today. Resurrected at the right hand of the father. I know as the crucified savior but not on the cross today.........but living and resurrected. I personally dont gather with him at the cross. He got off of it and is now neither there or in the tomb or in the upper room.

Ps 91; He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most high,shall abide in the shadow of the almighty"

This secret place, upon discovering it,has been my place of gathering with him

sermonindex Jan 4, 2009

"I did not know Him, nor did I know my own sin, until someone taught me who He really is...in context...in His Word."

Would you mind explaining the above sentence in a little more detail, I think it may be an important point to discuss....brother Frank

The plot line of all of scripture is God's redemption of His creation, and the context for that story is a fallen world full of men and women who are at enmity with God.

As Jesus himself said -

"O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26(AE) Was it not necessary that(AF) the Christ should suffer these things and enter into(AG) his glory?" 27And(AH) beginning with(AI) Moses and(AJ) all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

The whole of scripture is about Christ and Him crucified: from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Joseph to Moses and the history of Israel...all the way up to the manger, and the cross through the resurection and His return. It's one great big wonderful story of how God, in His infinite wisdom and mercy, has and will redeem His creation. And all those that are included in Christ by faith are partakers of His wonderful work.

It's all about Him.

sermonindex Jan 4, 2009

Hi Mahoney

Thanks for the clarification, although it was specifically this quote I was interested in ..............

Quote:

"I did not know Him, nor did I know my own sin, until someone taught me who He really is...in context...in His Word."

I can say amen to the clarification that you wrote,as I suspect most could. I would just say, and this is the point of the initial post, that you cannot know Jesus pesonally by studying Him. You know Him because you met Him and you have a relationship with HIm. You know about your sin because of conviciton of the Holy Spirit. You can dig deeper into the Word and find out many things about Jesus, who He was, how the OT speaks of Him coming and so on. Yet, the key point is that we are saved because we "know," Him personally and not because we know about Him. Many Christians knew little to nothing about Jesus or the Scriptures until after they came to Christ. Then they dive into the Word because they have been transfored by the relationship that they now have and they learn so much by the reading of the Word. The Holy Spirit they now have opens up the Scriptures to them allowing them and enabling them to understand what they could not when they were in their "carnality."........brother Frank

P
psalm1 Jan 5, 2009

by Mahoney on 2008/12/30 10:47:18

Since you put the thread in a form of a question I would like to answer.

I would say that you cannot know Him without knowing about Him. I too am a former catholic and I though I believed in God, but did not know Him, I can also safely say that I did not really know anything about Him either. I did not know Him, nor did I know my own sin, until someone taught me who He really is...in context...in His Word. So I can say today that I really know Jesus, and I really know about Him also


I agree wholeheartedly,but are you saying to know about him is one and the same as knowing him?

Just asking

sermonindex Jan 5, 2009

I agree wholeheartedly,but are you saying to know about him is one and the same as knowing him?

First off, pitting the two categories (knowing Him and knowing about Him) against each other is really a false dichotomy anyway...but what I am saying is:

You cannot know Jesus without knowing about Jesus and understanding His purpose and work.

Look at Ephesians 3

17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God


Paul's prayer was that the people of God would comprehend and know the love of Christ. There are two parts to knowing the Love of Christ:

We must comprehend His love - lay hold of it with our mind.

We must know His love - experience it in our lives.

The two are inseparable. We must comprehend Christ and His work with our minds and we must experience Him and His work in our lives. We cannot have one without the other.

Feelings come and go. Intense times of prayer come and go, and based upon how disciplined one is prayer times come and go. We must have something more reliable then our feelings and experiences. That thing is His word, and His Word is life...Eternal life.

sermonindex Jan 5, 2009

Quote


"First off, pitting the two categories (knowing Him and knowing about Him) against each other is really a false dichotomy anyway...but what I am saying is:

You cannot know Jesus without knowing about Jesus and understanding His purpose and work. "

We will have to agree to disagree, there is no dichotomy. The post was about salvation itself, you seem to be confusing justification with sanctification. Ephesians three is a perfect example of what cannot be known by the intellect. One cannot know the fullness of God outside of actually experiencing His presence, an actual encounter with the living God. Can one live in the mountaintops? No. Does one walk in the manifest presence of God at all times? No, quite the opposite. You can know almost nothing about Scripture and know Jesus, yet, you can know everything about Jesus through the Scriptures and not "know,' Jesus, not be saved, that was and is the point of the post.......brother Frank

sermonindex Jan 5, 2009

experiencing His presence, an actual encounter with the living God

...and where has God chosen to abide?
...how and where do we encounter the living God?

sermonindex Jan 5, 2009

Quote

"...and where has God chosen to abide?
...how and where do we encounter the living God?"

Are these rhetorical questions Mahoney ? :) I think the first we can all agree that Jesus went to be with His Father but He sent His Holy Spirit, our helper. The Holy Spirit resides in us, He magnifies Jesus in our hearts, He leads and guides us into all truth. Your second question is an excellent one "How and where do we encounter the living God?" What is the difference between having "Jesus in our hearts," and having an actual encounter, a spiritual experience a "God coming down," a shekinah, an actual experience of "His presence." To me, these are the key questions. If one has never experienced any of these, ever, then one would have to question what one has.

This intimacy with the Lord is not through the intellect, nor does it depend upon you knowledge of the Word. If knowledge of the Word was equated with intimacy, then the Pharisees would have been the most "intimate," of believers. Yet, they did not recognize God when He stood in front of them.

So, who out there can give examples of "meeting God," or intimacy?.......brother Frank

P
psalm1 Jan 6, 2009

Quote;
"You cannot know Jesus without knowing about Jesus and understanding His purpose and work".

True,however,the question is coined the other way around.

Some only know about him,but never 'met' him personally.

Do you agree?

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