Why was John the Baptist not chosen as a disciple

As I am sensing the Lord is stirring me to begin a ministry that will involve a number of people, my mind is a little more sensitive than normal to the process of finding the right people to begin this ministry with. I think of people who have proven themselves and of people who have the same heart for what I feel the Lord is leading me to do.

As I have been reading in John where Jesus is chosing His disciples, the thought occured - why didn't He choose John. He definitely had proven himself and definitely had the same heart to reach the lost.

The thought had never occured to me before. I've thought about it all day and thought I would post it to see if anyone else had ever wondered the same.

Dear Brother MJones,

Certainly more knowledgeable members will follow my post but just consider John the Baptist said

Jn:3:30: He must increase, but I must decrease.

Regards,
white stone

White_Stone wrote:
he was already doing God's will.

That is it in a nutshell. He already had a ministry. I would not ask a pastor to enter this ministry with me; they already have a ministry.

I was not thinking of it from that standpoint. I was coming from the mindset of looking for those who had the same passion for, or at least could see the vision of, what I sense the Lord is leading me to do. It was in that mindset that I wondered why Jesus didn't choose John who definitely had the same passion and vision.

As much as anything, I had just never had the thought before.

I guess another aspect of this, if anyone would care to respond, are personal experiences of God bringing certain people together for ministry.

Good question. I will give you my opinion, but that is all it is.

I would think that John was not called/asked because he was meant to be the one crying out in the wilderness. If he was following Jesus as a disciple, he would no longer be in the wilderness crying out.

I could be wrong, but if John followed Jesus (as a disciple) it may not have fullfilled the scriptures completely.

Just a thought.

Its only speculation, but maybe it has to do that John the baptist was the very last OT prophet so to speak, "put new wine in new wine skins" maybe?

Johns calling and ministry was not to be one of the twelve that followed but rather preparing the way.

just short thoughts :-)

MJones wrote:

As I have been reading in John where Jesus is chosing His disciples, the thought occured - why didn't He choose John. He definitely had proven himself and definitely had the same heart to reach the lost.

John was chosen for another reason which he fulfilled. To then be chosen as a disciple would not have been of the will of God.

Jesus said "The Law and the prophets were until John." John name means grace and with his ministry God began a new dispensation the dispensation of grace, in which the Law of Moses would not fit.

John prepared the people to accept the Messiaah he came as a witness to the light that was coming.

He also knew that once the messiah came that he must decrease and he the Messiah must increase.

In affect the end of his ministry.

It's all about God and his will hope that helps you.

Mat 11: 7As John's disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: "What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 8If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings' palaces. 9Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10This is the one about whom it is written:
" 'I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.'[c] 11I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. 13For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15He who has ears, let him hear.

John was the last prophet in the OT before it came to the end. He was the Elijiah that was to come. Elijiah's turned the heart of the people back to the Lord and them his ministry was cut short and he was taken into heaven. John faced a similar fate. Jesus established the new covenant.

I think his death was also profoundly prophetic. His death was brought about by Herodes who is an archetype of a compromiser. The much needed call to repentance is frequently opposed by the compromisers of all ages.

narrowpath wrote:

"I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you."

John was the last prophet in the OT before it came to the end.

Then you say that John was the last OT prophet what does the scriptures tell us.

Matthew 11v13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Luke 16v16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Scrpiture tells us that the Law and the prophets were until John. So the last OT prophet was Malachi not John. John is the first messenger of the new covenant.

John came a and started to preach repent the Kingdom of God was at hand (Matt3v2). The people where going out to the wilderness and being baptized in the Jordan as they confessed there sins(Mat3v6) Was that new or old testement teaching. Jesus himself had to be Baptized by John

Matt 3v13-15 Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” But Jesus answering said to him “Permit it at this time for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he permitted Him.

John was the forerunner of the Messiah but with the coming of the Messiah there was going to be a change in the way God was going to do things. What was it it well even John name tells us what it would be. John meaning the Lord is Gracious.

Lets go back to Elijah what did his name meaning "the Lord is my God"

In his day Elijah had to confront the worship of Baal. Baal means Lord. So God sends a man to confront the apostasay of the day the mans name meant what God wanted the people to know. That the Lord is God (Elijah) not the Lord is Baal.

So with John we find the same pattern his name meant what God wanted us to know about himself and about he was going to do on the earth John "The Lord is Gracious".

Jesus established the new covenant

Jesus and his obedience to the will of the Father
established the new covenant.

Luke 22v42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

It was the Fathers will that Jesus should die on the cross and the age of Grace would come.

John the prophet sent by God to declare what God was going to do and the very meaning of his name declared it to us.

"As I have been reading in John where Jesus is choosing His disciples, the thought occur ed - why didn't He choose John. He definitely had proven himself and definitely had the same heart to reach the lost."

It would have been impossible for john to be a disciple of Jesus.
Johns role had purpose. It was he that passed on the priesthood to Jesus.
That is why Jesus was baptised.
The priesthood HAD to change.
John was the representation of the Levitical priesthood.

In order for Jesus ministry to begin the priesthood had to change.
From levitical ,aronic.........to judah,davidical,melkesidic

The priesthood could possibly be the greatest study in all the word.

psalm1 wrote:
"As I have been reading in John where Jesus is choosing His disciples, the thought occur ed - why didn't He choose John. He definitely had proven himself and definitely had the same heart to reach the lost."

It would have been impossible for john to be a disciple of Jesus.
Johns role had purpose. It was he that passed on the priesthood to Jesus.
That is why Jesus was baptised.
The priesthood HAD to change.
John was the representation of the Levitical priesthood.

In order for Jesus ministry to begin the priesthood had to change.
From levitical ,aronic.........to judah,davidical,melkesidic

The priesthood could possibly be the greatest study in all the word.

Psalm1 where in scripture does it tell us this that John represented the Levitical priesthood and where he passed on that priesthood to Jesus.

Psalm1 where in scripture does it tell us this that John represented the Levitical priesthood and where he passed on that priesthood to Jesus.

5THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

7And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.

8And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course,

Caiaphas was a roman appointee. The priesthood at the time was corrupted. And John was a legitimate levite by birth.

OK, now notice the priesthood of Jesus

11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

So one could possibly argue the exact change or time of change(of the priesthood)

But notice "a change in the law" and the Jordan has over time been a place of change.

Note also it is consistent,or proper that the Romans whipped our Lord,crucified him,beat him,tried him,and pierced him.And now with a corrupted preisthood and that 'office' suffering further the tearing of ciaphus' robe left the needed dilema.......no way to officiate the passover.
Israel and its priesthood were under roman control and the priesthood's need,established by Adams sin,HAD to have a point of change.

The seamless robe of the priest could not be torn.
It disqualified the priest from service.
How exciting Jesus' robe was NOT rent.

Scrpiture tells us that the Law and the prophets were until John. So the last OT prophet was Malachi not John. John is the first messenger of the new covenant.

This is impossible because John was Pre-Pentecost. The New Birth places people in Jesus Christ and hence the New Covenant. No man could be in Christ until Christ ascended.

[color=000066] For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. (Luke 7) [/color]

Why is that? Because John was not 'in' Christ in the same sense that believers post Pentecost are 'in Christ'. John was the best that the Old Covenant had to offer. He was the highest expression of spiritual attainment while still in Adam. Nevertheless, [color=000066]but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.[/color]

John stood at the edge of the Old Covenant with the New Covenant in sight. He was beheaded before Christ died leaving Him under the Old Covenant.

Jesus and his obedience to the will of the Father established the new covenant.

[color=000066]For a testament is of force [u]after men are dead[/u]: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. (Hebrews 9)[/color]

Jesus had not yet died and the New Covenant was not in force in John's lifetime. There is not middle covenant either. It is either Old or New.

Had John lived to experience Pentecost we might say He was part of the New Covenant. It was Jesus that said, "Ye must be born again." And it was Paul's revelation of the Gospel in Romans and the other epistles that brought much of the new Covenant to light. So it is impossible that John even understood the New Covenant because he did not experience New Birth. He might of pointed the way- but he was still as back of it as was Abraham in terms of experience.

RobertW wrote:

Scrpiture tells us that the Law and the prophets were until John. So the last OT prophet was Malachi not John. John is the first messenger of the new covenant.

This is impossible because John was Pre-Pentecost. The New Birth places people in Jesus Christ and hence the New Covenant. No man could be in Christ until Christ ascended.

I will not deny that John was pre-pentecost but you can't ignore scripture and scripture tell us that since the time of John the Kingdom of God is preached.

Luke 16v 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Reading the above scripture could you agree that the laws and the Prophets where until John and with John something new was started. So if the Law and the prophets were until John then John was not under levitcal law.

John message was one of Grace. God's unmerited favour on you that he would send his Son the Lamb of God that would take away the sins of the world. This message God wanted you to get so much that the prophets name meant want God was going to do. John meaning Grace to you. Gods unmerited favour, something you don't deserve to get. But God in his Goodiness gave it to us and that started with John as the forerunner of the Lamb that would take away the sins of the world and not at Pentecost.

Quote from Psalm1:

It would have been impossible for john to be a disciple of Jesus.
Johns role had purpose. It was he that passed on the priesthood to Jesus.
That is why Jesus was baptised.
The priesthood HAD to change.
John was the representation of the Levitical priesthood.

In order for Jesus ministry to begin the priesthood had to change.
From levitical ,aronic.........to judah,davidical,melkesidic

The priesthood could possibly be the greatest study in all the word.

My Comment:
This is right on track, thank you....And if I might add another scripture that we must also think about.
Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

LarryD

notice also that when Jesus' authority was questioned he referred them to John

'1And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,

2And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?

3And he answered and said unto them, I will also ask you one thing; and answer me:

4The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?

Reading the above scripture could you agree that the laws and the Prophets where until John and with John something new was started. So if the Law and the prophets were until John then John was not under levitcal law.

If John was [u]not[/u] under the Old Covenant and not under the New Covenant then what covenant was he under?

As you start out in ministry it will probably be God bringing individuals to join with you as God brought together King David's mighty men of valor, probably more so than you going out and finding individuals by saying follow me, as Jesus did. Rember He was God and knew what was in the heart of man Jn 2:24-25, we don't, except as the Lord allows. The puritans used an expression about our desires being so strong sometimes that they bribe our sense our ability to discern properly. So probably as you start on your ministry the Lord will join people to you with tghe same burden He has placed within them as within you. :-)

dohzman wrote:
So probably as you start on your ministry the Lord will join people to you with the same burden He has placed within them as within you. :-)

There are times I feel I know a little bit, and then after reading a few posts, like here in this thread, I realize I haven't scratched the surface. For those who have the propensity for these deeper things, you must surely thoroughly enjoy that you have found others here with whom you can converse.

This all started as a simple question that ran through my mind one morning as I was reading where Jesus was choosing His disciples. Since I am in the same mode, and thinking more on how all that would come about in my situation, I couldn't help but to think, as 'dohzman' also suggests, that I would look for those who had the same heart and passion.

Before I could think of the obvious reason that 'white stone' quickly pointed out, which was that John already had a ministry, I simply thought, why didn't He pick John. Who had more of the same heart and passion than John?

For what it is worth, my answer comes in these two relatively simple thoughts. One could say that since Jesus didn't pick John, who had the same heart and passion, that that is not adaquate criterea, which was my immediate thought.

But I believe it is adequate criterea, it was just that in John's case, he was already involved in a full time ministry. As I said in an earlier post, I would not approach a pastor to help me in this ministry. He already has a ministry. But I do think, as 'dohzman' suggusts, the Lord will connect me with the ones who have the same heart and passion, as He is already doing, and who have room to add ministry to their life.

For those of you who are enjoying the deeper side of this thread, don't let me stop you. You seem to be having too much fun.

RobertW wrote:

If John was [u]not[/u] under the Old Covenant and not under the New Covenant then what covenant was he under?

Matt 11v12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Matt 11v13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Before the above verses Jesus was talking to the multitudes concerning John. He eventually makes the statement in the above verses. In verse 11 we can read that that from John until know the Kingdom of God suffers violence. So since John the Baptist something has started things where done differently.

When we look at verse 13 Jesus says that all the Prophets and the Law Prophesied until John. It does say until the cross or until Pentecost but until John.

What does it mean when Jesus says "Until John" and "From the days of John"

I take it to mean that things where done this way until this time and know your going to do it another way from that time. In all of the OT I cannot find one instance of being filled with Gods Spirit. I can see where the God's Spirit came on people but no record of being filled please correct me if I am wrong.

Luke 1 v5 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Something new God Spirit is operating in a way that never happen before again correct me if I am wrong. John was differnt from any other man before or the greatest man that was born of woman as Jesus said.

So why the change from the time of John because John was the forerunner of the Messiah the promised Messiah who is going to set up his Kingdom who is going to take away the sins of the world. It was a new time in Gods perfect will the promise (covenant) that God had told them about in the OT was here in flesh on the earth The Lamb of God, The King of Kings and The Lord of Lords Jesus Christ.

Jesus the Messiah is the new covenant he is the promised saviour way no one gets to Father expect through him, He is the way the truth and the light.

Now I did see mentioned ealier that someone wrote that the New Covenant started at Pentecost. I would disagree with that by that time(Pentecost)everything was in place for the birth of the church where we see another important man stand up Peter with the other disciples.