Individual Church Visions and the Bible...your thoughts.

Well I am restless in my own thoughts trying to make sense of what I see.

For those of you who love Jesus and try everyday to follow his Word....Has anyone been noticing that the people of God are starving for a fellowship of Genuine believers walking in faith? Willing to do what the Bible says Everyday?

My thoughts ...correct me please.

I have been fellowshiping with the non-denomination-denomination. I have grown so tired of praying for the "New" building, listening and trying to praise the Lord to "this is the air I Breathe" till everyone is emotionaly spent, and watching everyone trying to make the Cut in being the Good Looking minister/Hireling suck ups to a "Klicky" leadership. How far are we from the Mark and how badly are we missing it?

The (My) Heart is decietfully wicked right...Am I just a Bitter believer in sin, not submitting to a church's vision. Or is this what the Church in America is today? Is it men following men with ideas of How it all should be done? Waiting for approval from one another in order to do what they KNOW is already right? Is the Worship leaders new les paul with a Marshall half stack more important then some 90 orphans in Pena Blanca Honduras getting atleast one meal a day served by someone wanting to show the Love of God and point them to Jesus?

Some body please slap me! Then pray I dont get an Isaiah complex and start some zealous home fellowship.

Note : I am limiting my Brother Ravenhill sermons to 2 a year....if that much.

Thanks for your encouragement or exhortation in advance.

I think that's some good advice, Brother Tom. I've been through that myself, and I also have friends who have been there, wondering if we can't find a decent church because we're maybe being too picky. A good thing about being in transition between churches, though, is that you have to learn how to stand on your own for a season, and it can strengthen you if you choose to see it as an opportunity to do so, but still we were not meant to walk alone all the time.

Your brothers may have their focus off. Your brothers may be trendy. Your brothers may play lots of games. But they are still your brothers just the same. Wherever God has planted you, blossom there.

Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed. (Hebrews 12:12-13)

There are some weak, feeble, and lame brethren out there. Indeed, there are many whose lives are out of joint and they have rendered themselves lame. But tend to them, love them, and take care of them. Build them up in the most holy faith, that was once and for all delivered to the saints. Be patient, and remember that you yourself have probably been in their very same predicament before in your own life. But the Lord was patient with you, and had mercy on you. Therefore, show mercy to them.

Withdrawing fellowship from your weaker brethren so you can form a small group of Ravenhill's simply is not the will of the Lord. He never did that nor would He do that today.

"And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." (Revelation 18:2-4 KJV)

Hello KingJimmy,

Withdrawing fellowship from your weaker brethren so you can form a small group of Ravenhill's simply is not the will of the Lord. [b]He never did that nor would He do that today.[/b]

Can you quote me the scripture for that? It sounds more like a personal assumption of what you feel He would say. I trust you do not intend putting words in our Lords mouth. If I am in error here, please show me.

regards,
white stone

Thanks Brothers....appreciate it.

Some body please slap me! Then pray I dont get an Isaiah complex and start some zealous home fellowship.

--well that's how it started out "Believers meet house to house"

An organism of cooperating cells submitting to the direct headship of Christ, rather than a religious business corporation where the directors raise up a vision in Jesus' name.

The corporate model is easier to control by men, the the former much harder.

The head of every believing man is Christ not the local Church. He has an individual plan/vision for each believer. And as long as it supports the corporate church's vision they'll support yours-(maybe). When the Lord leads you in a different path than the corporate vision then suddenly your a divisive brother; not submitting to the headship their church.
"Who's your covering?"-- a catch phrase of man's control. Christ is my head and the presence of the Holy Spirit my covering.

cordially Ron J.

White_Stone wrote:

"And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." (Revelation 18:2-4 KJV)

Hello KingJimmy,

Withdrawing fellowship from your weaker brethren so you can form a small group of Ravenhill's simply is not the will of the Lord. [b]He never did that nor would He do that today.[/b]

Can you quote me the scripture for that? It sounds more like a personal assumption of what you feel He would say. I trust you do not intend putting words in our Lords mouth. If I am in error here, please show me.

regards,
white stone

Yes, please show me as well.

I am one of those you speak of that has started a House Church. Have you been involved in many???? Any???

Blessings my friend.

""Can you quote me the scripture for that? It sounds more like a personal assumption of what you feel He would say. I trust you do not intend putting words in our Lords mouth. If I am in error here, please show me.""

The only time the Scriptures ever encourage us to disassociate ourselves with other Christians is in the case of those who persist in open sin, and shun the discipline of those in the church who show them their sin. Read Paul's letter to the Corinthians. Or read five of John's seven letters to the churches in Revelation. Or read our Lord's command in Matthew. Never will you find a verse in the entire New Testament that encourages you to leave one church and go to another, or to form a small group of Ravenhill's to protest a large lukewarm churches.

To do so is to create division in the body of Christ, and is just as much sin and carnality as those who are living in adulterous relationships. "Divisions" or "Factions" is listed as a fruit of the flesh in Galatians 6, which ranks with some other gross immorality. There is nothing spiritual about it. "Come out of her My people!" is often the cry of many such individuals. In my opinion and experience, I'm glad to see such people go when they finally do go. That way the church can get on with the business of being the church.

That's not to say I don't sympathize with such a view point. If there is anybody that is jealous for a church that is pure, white, and without spot and wrinkle, it would be me. But that doesn't mean we ignore the fact there are those who are genuine brethren who don't regularly live up to that standard. Indeed, there are brethren who are quite stale in their walk, and have little passion for God. Mere pew warmers on many levels. Oh to God this were not the case, but the fact of the matter is that this is the case. And such excites me and challenges me all the more. God knows I've been there and done that.

I thank God for the people who woke me from my slumber. Thank God they did not break away from the church and have nothing to do with lukewarm people like me. Otherwise, I would not be the man of God that I am today. We must patiently deal with immature and lukewarm believers. It is only so-called brethren who live in open sin that we must disassociate ourselves with. To disassociate from the brethren just because their cold and institutional has no foundation to it in Scripture whatsoever.

As for house churches, no, I've never "formally" been involved with a house church. Every Friday night though, I do open my apartment up for a time of fellowship with other men in the church. There is no formality to it. We show up, we eat, we share, we look at Scriptures, we lay hands on one another, we pray, and we go home. There is no leader. We simply meet under the headship of Christ, and simply as brethren. Some weeks some men have more to share than others. Sometimes our schedules conflict and we don't get together at all.

I believe God has called me to be a church planter here in America one day. He has put it in my heart to plant a church that is as organic as possible, and be house/cell based. But, I'm not opposed to having a larger more formal Sunday morning service so long as its done in the right spirit.

Hello KingJimmy,

Your arguments do not hold water. There is no comparing the practice of worship held by the early Christian's and those of today. There were no mortgages owed on buildings used for the Lord's Supper. There were no 'music programs,' or PA equipment to pay for.

The early Christian's were not set in stone, they may have moved from place to place, just as people do now. They could not have been expected to have been locked into attending the same Church family for life.

If there is total starvation for the Spirit of God how can you prove we must stay or justify the statement below?

To do so is to create division in the body of Christ, and is just as much sin and carnality as those who are living in adulterous relationships.

That sounds terribly judgmental and opinionated to me.

Kind regards,
white stone

KingJimmy wrote:

As for house churches, no, I've never "formally" been involved with a house church. Every Friday night though, I do open my apartment up for a time of fellowship with other men in the church. There is no formality to it. We show up, we eat, we share, we look at Scriptures, we lay hands on one another, we pray, and we go home. There is no leader. We simply meet under the headship of Christ, and simply as brethren. Some weeks some men have more to share than others. Sometimes our schedules conflict and we don't get together at all.

I believe God has called me to be a church planter here in America one day. He has put it in my heart to plant a church that is as organic as possible, and be house/cell based. But, I'm not opposed to having a larger more formal Sunday morning service so long as its done in the right spirit.

Brother, you ARE a part of a House Church.

Welcome! :-)

Your arguments do not hold water.

Can you show me Scriptural justification for refusing to fellowship with other believers on the grounds that they are not Spirit-filled enough in their church services? Remember, Paul said some in Corinth were dividing on grounds that they were of Cephas, Barnabas, Paul... and then there were those who were saying they were dividing on grounds that they were "...of Christ!" Paul condemned all as a fit of carnality and immaturity. That includes those who said they were the sect of Jesus!

"We gather around the headship of Jesus Christ alone!" I submit to you in all humility and brotherly love that this is a lie from hell. It's just as divisive as those who say they are of Cephas, Barnabas, Paul, the Baptists, Pentecostals, Presbyterians or whoever. The believer who is truly spiritual, those who Paul calls "the approved among you," are those who can gather together with any group of brethren, no matter their denominational affiliation and no matter their state of spiritual maturity. It is the spiritually immature who pull away from genuine fellowship with other believers simply because they don't quite add up to the stature they think somebody should i.e. Ravenhill's.

If there is total starvation for the Spirit of God how can you prove we must stay or justify the statement below?

Wherever two or three are gathered, He is there. Just because the movement of the Spirit tends to be on the stagnant side when believers gather doesn't mean He's not there. Biblically speaking, He's ALWAYS there so long as His people are. He's just as much there in an out of control Corinthian gathering where the gifts are abused as He is in a church where there is no demonstration of the gifts. Both churches are just as immature spiritually, though perhaps the stagnant church where there is no one-anothering is more fit, because at least they aren't being competitive and rude with the usage of their gifts, and stepping on one anothers toes in order to display their gift.

Wherever the Lord is, the Spirit is. If there are any who are saved at any gathering, then His presence is definitely there. Whether it be in an institutional setting or a house church setting. His presence is there just the same. This is truth. And if Jesus can fellowship with the people in the stagnant church, and still live inside of them, immature as they are, then there is no reason you should ever leave them. Indeed, it is your duty rather as a Christian to stay, and to strengthen the hands of the weak.

Oh, no doubt, your staying and doing things that are unconventional even as they persist in the status quo will probably bother them, and possibly create some conflicts within that church. But such is a cross one must bear. Simply withdrawing from fellowship is nothing more than cross avoidance. It's a cowardly thing to do. And there can be no Pentecost without going through the cross.

I have a lot of sympathy for what you write. Yet I think it may be over-general. For instance, what would you tell a Catholic who was born-again? Would you tell him to stay where he was and not avoid his cross? What about a Baptist who gets Spirit filled and there is no place for that in the church where he worships?

I believe you are misunderstanding me. I have emphasized throughout my posst that I am assuming that one is gathering with real believers who actually have Jesus living inside of them. People who have actually been saved. As far as a Baptist getting Spirit-filled, he should by all means attempt to continue on at the Baptist church he is in. Unfortunately, many Southern Baptist churches will make no room for him, and will show him the door. It is one thing to be kicked out of a church and have nowhere to go, it is quite another to break away with a contentious "I can do better elsewhere" attitude.

The only reasons I personally can justify leaving a church for are: 1) You move far away 2) God actually tells you to go somewhere else 3) They kick you out.

Leaving a church because they don't play the way you'd like them to play, however, I think is entirely unjustified. Indeed, sometimes its more complicated than this. But, if you've read the rebukes Christ gave 5 of the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3, you'll never once see Christ give any faithful on fire believers the "Come out of her My people!" type call many profess to hear today. What do you find instead? You find Christ warning those churches to get their act together. And these were in churches that had problems much bigger than being seeker friendly! He commends the faithful for their faithfulness, and corrects those who are in error for their error. And as Paul makes clear to the Corinthians, if people are in error, you need to hold them to account for that error.

Lord, seriously. Have we actually read the Bible in all its ugly nakedness? Have we actually read Paul's epistles? We need to clear our minds of all these romantic notions of what the early church was really like. Seriously, consider Corinth. At Corinth you had sectarianism running wild, people living in open sexual immorality of the grossest kind-- and bragging about it, confusion about proper gender roles, people getting drunk on communion wine, people neglecting the poor during the Lord's Supper, charismatic chaos, and if that weren't bad enough, there was a great question mark about if Jesus was really raised from the dead!!!

This is a church Paul ministered to! And guess what? He still opened his epistle to them, greeting them as brethren, and calling this bunch of pigs sanctified! Never once did he encourage the few there who were living right to leave and go start another church down the street. Rather, he called upon the church to correct those who were in error... just as he was doing.

No doubt, many of us, probably including myself, would have been tempted to leave that bunch and write them off. No doubt, they make many of the churches I have been part of look so good. And one might seem justified in quietly packing up their bags and moving on. But, this is not in keeping with the mind of Christ, and contrary to the apostolic pattern that was displayed for us by our brother Paul.

Do what you want to. But I will follow Paul, for he followed Christ.

I can not tell you how much your post has meant to my husband and myself! Even although my response to KingJimmy was critical of his comparing the modern Church to the 'Home Style' Church in the Apostle Paul's day, his passionate argument made us feel confused.

As much confusion and pain KingJimmy's posts have caused I have assurance in these words from Romans 8:28
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Praise Jesus, He is my Lord, and He will give me a
white stone