TroyorTakoda
Jan 4, 2009
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Brother,
Before I begin my post, my response, I pray you "feel" my words, which are gentle and soft. Though I disagree and utterly refute every statement issued by "Amnesty International", etc. I do so with gentleness towards you, I beg you, understand this.
I am a Jew who follows Jesus, who confesses Jesus as Messiah.
There was a time in my life, in the early 80's when I was going to "make aliyah", that's what we term emigrating to Israel, but I never did, just because I "fell" back into the comfort of America after having served in the military in a very tense part of the world, the only part of our empire where we are in a constant state of readiness. I dont really regret because Gods Will and Mind is unsearchable, I might have never come to Messiah, while living in Israel, and the Riches of Jesus are so precious. But when I hear of such as is happening now, my soul is torn in two, that I'm not there, serving.
That might sound bad to you, or cast me in the light of a craven warmonger, and I disagree neither to argue with you, or to persuade you to turn from your position, or to denigrate your position, but I know this, the destroyer, you know him as satan, or some call him the enemy, others call him the 'god of this age' has endevoured since the time that Jesus was nailed to the tree, to kill off ALL the Jewish people, he used hitler and his minions, and almost succeeded, 6 million Jews...gone, and now he uses the arabs.
I know you disagree with me, and thats okay, no rancor here, but I ask you this, if you could, just view this presentation, and pray over it, and consider it all in the light of what has been prophesied by John, .....by the way, I am no neo-con, nor right or left wingers, just hiding up under God's wing (read Psalm 91)
and please just know, that my heart is so heavy, so full of grief, I can barely make it thru today. natan
[url=http://fun.mivzakon.co.il/flash/video/2664/2664.html]Israel and the Arabs
May God bless you and fill you.
This has got to be the worst piece of journalism I have ever read. Hardly would it make one mad if it wasn't so carelessly stitched together.
Trying to navigate through a myriad of wrong headed assumptions will be difficult but here goes nevertheless.
I do not know that there is a collective support that neatly divides that which Israel as a modern nation does as carte blanche is always deemed right or responsible in the eyes of those of us who call ourselves Christian. Now to say the obvious will surely be misinterpreted but there is something very ... odd - That anytime Israel defends itself they are seen as the aggressor, the math does not add up. When the rockets come launching in from Hamas there is not a peep, not from the International community, not from Amnesty, not from anyone lest they be those in harms way. Is this a defense of their retaliation? Or the other issues surrounding the suppressing of the Palestinians? No. Definitely not. At the same time and too complicate the matters is the fact that these are terrorists to begin with ... it is just not that simple and this idea of just suddenly opening the gates is foolhardy and illogical.
If it was a matter of my personal opinion I find the whole thing very grievous indeed and wouldn't with a knee jerk reaction instantaneously support Israel when it is obvious that they are very complacent in creating the situation that is suppressing the people of Gaza. But if anything, we ought to get our facts straight, which leads to;
A brief history of the United States, according to Howard Zinn
Brief would be an understatement. It's sloppy and incoherent. What does Africa have to do with America in this context and what does any of this have to do with the situation in Gaza? Trying to draw a poor parallel?
I have only one question for American Christians who think we should support Israel no matter what: Would the real people of God persecute citizens of their own country just because they are a different race and/or religion?
Is this really the issue? When Israel itself lives with the very tensions of Muslims, Christians and Orthodox Jews in something as oft contested as the Temple Mount? No. It is not the issue and making it one is to add needless fuel to a powder keg.
I do not agree with the tactics of Israel and I certainly do not agree with idiots who strap bombs to themselves and blow up innocent bystanders thinking they are doing a service to 'god'.
This is a lot of rhetoric.
I do not know which part of this is yours and that which is someone else's or where they blur so yes, I am a bit off put by it as a whole. Didn't intend to be unduly harsh.
I can see upon rereading this where the parallels could be drawn after all and would try and hedge it off before it gets further misconstrued. There is no denying everything that has gone on in American History and likely part of my ... slight indignation has to do with a great piece I read recently on History in general, hopefully I will obtain permission to re-type it here someday.
If I also must be brief, it would amount to parsing aspects and making them stand on all fours when it comes to History. There is a great deal to be said in the little pamphlet I read about how the school systems (college included) and teaching of all matters of academics have been contorted towards a certain view, a certain agenda ... am getting well past myself here. But it does center around a certain man by the name of Dewey. When History comes into play, if it does at all, it too is squeezed through a funnel to produce the desired effects.
What struck me here as it has elsewhere in the reporting is this 'numbers racket' if I could put it that way. It comes across like it is some sort of sporting event, lopsided by numbers of casualties as the deciding factor. How many unnecessary deaths on either side does it take to cause an outrage ... So crass and depleting.
A world away though 'greater numbers' if I must use the same disgusting logic is a foot and has been ongoing for quite some time. It just usually tends to slide off the radar since it doesn't have the same sort of ... what is it really? "Entertainment value"?
though I utterly refute and disagree with Troy's offering, why the tenor of your post to him?
and I'll say what I said to him, I make my post to you in utter meekness and soft of voice, and I ask this as a Jew who follows Jesus, why is it, that some Gentile Christians, who are ingrafted Children of Abraham, just don't get the utter torment of the Jewish people, who are so close, yet so far.
and my torment TODAY is so tremendous upon my heart, I cant even hardly type these words.
and my torment multiplies, because I know that many within the Church are the physical and/or "spiritual" offspring of those who rampaged thru Europe and thru the Middle East hundreds of years ago , even decades ago, with the cry, "kill a Jew for Jesus"....that is what happened, as well as the later hate-filled writings of Martin Luther, which absolutely break my heart in two .....and I don't mean to be contentious, or divisive, or argumentative, but just give me the word, and I'll delete my link to that presentation, and if you so desire, feel free to delete my account, because when I read what you wrote:
I do not agree with the tactics of Israel
I have to ask, what would you do?
I remember a time on this very forum, late 2002 to 2003, when many many believers supported a pre-emptive invasion of Iraq, and it was all based on lies.
Rockets and missiles flying into Israel proper are facts. Venomous "sermons" from muslim clerics are facts, what should Israel do?
What should I do? vis-avis this forum? as I feel that many many brothers and sisters just dont get the torment of the Jews.
I've already "de-friended" from facebook ,a dear sister in Jesus, a Gentile, because when I posted that presentation, her comments led to me believe that she has no idea the torment of the Jews, and the tragic fact they are "so close yet so far" from Messiah, and what Israel means to THIS Jew, who is a fellow follower of Messiah, and rather than "torment" her, I'd rather walk away from fellowship, albeit cyber fellowship.
and you have no idea how today, I want to lay on my face, and weep, and how wrecked I am, so please, feel free to close my account, or tell me to take that presentation link down.
natan, known as neil
Neil,
One of the great problems here is in making things personal when they need not be, it confuses everything.
What I am taking umbrage with is making complicated matters seemingly simplistic by the use of sheer rhetoric, which is what far too many do, Amnesty not the least nor the last. If you re-read what I have stated it is just as largely aligned with a befuddlement over just what is it about Israel that has the nations gnashing their teeth at them, even if I didn't put it in so many words. It is, at the very least peculiar ... Indeed just what is it they are supposed to do? I don't know, but are not those in Gaza still being cut off from all sorts of normative necessities nevertheless? And that even before all this started up?
To begin to tie this into prophetic utterance, to what Israel represents today as to an equivalent biblical past ... I stand unbiased or better slightly on the side of err best I can tell. The real answer is I just do not know one way or the other. Nowhere is there any mention one way or the other of the plight of the Jews, that is your insertion - does that mean I have no concern or just no mention?
And you might be surprised about Luther, it may not pacify everything, explain everything but it is worth at least a consideration - It surprised me a bit. I will dig up the link and post it at bottom.
That little piece I think also speaks volumes about where we can go very much wrongheaded on scant information. It's not everything and it just seems to me we ought to be more ... factual, considerate of all the intangibles in complex situations. It is in no way so cut and dried as we might have it. The suffering is spread about, even if it is not seen as equal. Too often these things even in discussing them turn into hotbeds of contentious argument built on emotion, politics, rhetoric ... but are they so? Is this really a 'religious' issue only or is it as I stated having to deal with terrorists which complicates the whole matter. What is there to the very idea that they know full well what they do by provoking and then turning it around to make it all look like Israel 'brought it on themselves'. But again, as true as this tactic is likely to be, how much of it is, in a sense partially true? Right or wrong - there it is nevertheless.
[url=http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/libel_againstluther.htm]Libel Against Luther
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Hello Neil,
Thank you for the link to that presentation. It was illuminating. Since all my facts have been learned from the American TV so called 'world' news, I always knew something was not right about what they say.
I never knew it was a lie about the Jews pushing the Palestinians out of their Country. It is not a Country they want. Not only do they want death for Israel but for America, as well.
More than ever I feel the need to get as close to Jesus as I can and not leave His side. There is only safety there.
Kindest regards,
white stone
(said in a loving friendly voice:)
I'm just having a terrible awful day, and at the top of that list is the situation in Israel, followed by a father dying in the hospital, and a mother who doesnt have it together to get the medicine she needs, and missing a beloved son, only a week after being with him at Christmas, and...and...and....
so What is left is Jesus Messiah, and He is enough, more than enough to comfort me, if only I would let Him.
sorry bro for any drama.
neil
Your words make weep with gratitude.
After Jesus, my hero of the Bible is King David. And I should be in Israel now, in uniform, ready to serve, but I'm not, and I feel impotent and weak.
the reason I didnt emigrate back then, was truth be told I didnt WANT to kill arabs, and I can assure you not one solider in the IDF does, but that was weak kneed reasoning on my part. Hence my guilt.
Golda Meir told Anwar Sadat (and I paraphrase) "we dont despise you for your sons killing our sons, but for the fact you turned our sons into killers".
God bless you for the balm of your words, neil
Dear Neil,
Of course my brother, I understand. Forgive my overbearing commentary ...
I will be in prayer for you and for yours.
Just a thought. Perhaps if HAMAS stopped lobbing missels into Israel, from Gaza, Israel would not have to go and stop them with deadly force. Just how many missels would I have to fire across the Canadian US border before you would want the US military to react?
Blessings Greg
Hello Smokey,
Hamas is not one individual firing rockets.
If you were firing on the US from across the border and you were a very large, well trained band with backing from our avowed enemies, I imagine the response would be large. If you were one man, acting on his own, it would not take an army.
We are not there. Did you follow the links posted by Natan4Jesus? It is not as the news people present it to be.
I will be praying for Israel.
white stone
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I realize full and well, that governments, per se, are just that, governments, but if you were a policy leader in Israel, what would you do?
Hamas and Hizbo'allah have no intention of negotiating peace with Israel, no intention of negotiating a two state solution, their clearly stated goals are the destruction of the State of Israel.
You might counter with, its disproportinate, this counterstrike, but the reality is, its not for lack of effort that Hamas has not killed more Israeli's with their missiles, its because they are militarily incompetent. Israel didnt close the crossing or build the wall to be meanies, it was because the military and defense structure had to do something about the suicide bombers that were hitting civilian targets within Israel, causing mass casaulties, bombing crowded buses, crowded cafes. It didnt suddenly stop because Hamas and Hizbo'allah decided that that tactic was WRONG, its because they couldnt get in, and because the IDF got proactive about hunting down the leaders of these two organizations, because said leaders dont want peace, and there comes a time, when enough is enough.
Israeli forces will divide Gaza into 5 sectors of operation, and destroy the tunnels that smuggle weaponry into Gaza, destroy the missiles that are stockpiled, maybe up to 30,000 of them, and lay siege to Gaza City, and send in focused special forces teams to take out the leadership of Hamas, this leadership that not only is a client of Iran, but is devoted to the destruction of Israel.
Further complicating the whole rubric of the region is the fact that Iran labors away to construct two elements that are a clear and present EXISTENTIAL danger to Israel, they are working on sophisticated 3 stage military grade IRBM's, and they are feverishly working on nuclear weapons, and to wed this weapons to the missile tech, all buttressed by free lance Russian and Pakistani scientists who are well versed in these technologies and eager for either a paycheck, or jihad. The Iranians have demonstrated that they are not a "grown-up" enough nation, to enter the nuclear club. Neither is Pakistan, but that cat's out of the bag, and exporting this vile technology thruout the Islamic "caliphinate".
Jews ignored "Mein Kampf", they will not make that mistake again, what you are seeing is an existential battle for survival, the war stops when Hamas can't launch rockets at Israel, and Israel will not sit down with Hamas at the UN, as Hamas is not recognized by the UN as a coherent nation state, but a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel, who can reason with such men as these?
Who?
please accept this post in the calm tone I write it, I have no rancor towards you, I just disagree, thats all.
neil
It is more than naive for us here in this country to try to make judgments against Israel when we have no idea the psychological, physical, and yes spiritual warfare that they endure 24/7. To take the exaggerated numbers of "innocent citizens" killed by the IDF and make them victims when men women and children from the time they are able to walk and talk are indoctrinated in hatred for Israel, and are willing to die, killing one Jew, or to sacrifice husband, wife, or children in what they are taught is the surest way to their heaven, is ludicrous to say the least. It shows gross ignorance and I do not say that to be unkind, just to challenge everyone in this country to walk in moccasins of the side that has given every concession that can be given and still gets the most negative press around the world. Every day the whole purpose of the Palestinian side is to kill or maim civilians, and yet when in the course of trying to wipe out the source of that continual attempt to wipe them into the sea, civilians are killed, we have these self-righteous condemnations that use as their source one of the most prejudiced history revisionists you could find on the planet. Our zeal for TRUTH ought to be higher than that.
We are coming down to those days that have been prophesied for all these centuries and to look at what is happening in Israel as if it were not precisely what God said it would be is to fail to see the thousands of scriptures that tell us of the perpetual hatred of them, and the main reason for that is the God is called "the God of Israel". We can say that we do not support the government but support the people but that is disengenuous because they are a democracy. They are in an existential struggle. And we had better be careful in making such artifical distinctions between people and policy. God allowed Babylon to take Israel captive when there was still a king in Israel, but that nation was punished because of the pride and hatred with which they did it. The same was true with Assyria, and I assure that it will be that way till the end. God is not through with the people, and it will be a dreadful thing in the days ahead to see us abandon a people to the will of people who have repeatedly vowed to wipe Israel into the sea.
The sad truth is that this thing is playing out precisely as so many have foreseen, and as our Lord said it would also, with all the world hating those people who have yet to endure a worse than the holocaust. And we as Christians certainly are not obligated to take the sides of Israel’s politics, but on the other hand it is absolutely wrong, to justify the perpetual hatred (spoken of in Ezekiel 35) and wickedness of vowing and trying with every breath to totally wipe out a people that has made effort after effort to simply live in peace.
Not to worry, this country is going to go along with all the rest of the world as they turn against Israel… are more specifically the Jews… again, and what is happening already in our streets is points to that fact.
Check out this video of what just happened in edit Ft. Lauderdale, Florida http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Xl68kP4wo
Please do not take this as a personal attack, but simply as a defense of truth that can be easily documented by those who have been there. One such person is Bridgette Gabriel.
A second thing that would be extremely helpful for this country and every Christian is to learn as much as you possibly can regarding Islam, from the sources... the Koran and the Hadiths, rather than from the propoganda. The article on this site from the young son of the Hamas leader should open some eyes.
I have been witnessing to the local imam in this area for several years since right after 9/11. Unless God changes their hearts we are in for more shocks than we can possibly imagine in this country.
In godly love,
Clint
edit: I am sorry that I did not say what I intended to say to you Neil... and that is I am so sorry to hear about the personal tragedies in your family. I lost a love one this week. I assure you that I will be praying for you this night.
Clint
God Bless Israel
Land that He loves!
People that He loves!
Genesis 12:1 ¶Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
As a gentile American, I have certainly been blessed by God's chosen people Israel.
May God richly bless them today tomorrow and forever!
May God have mercy on any Christian who might be in danger of God's curse.
What does it mean to curse? We must be careful about any language that we use that might be against God's chosen people.
Main Entry: 2curse
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): cursed; curs·ing
Date: before 12th century
transitive verb
1: to use profanely insolent language against : blaspheme
2 a: to call upon divine or supernatural power to send injury upon b: to execrate in fervent and often profane terms
3: to bring great evil upon : afflict
intransitive verb
: to utter imprecations : swear
MAY GOD RICHLY BLESS ISRAEL!!!
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