Sinners in the hands of an angry God

I am reading the sermon by jonathan edwards right now and about finished but a few questions have popped into my mind. God is angry with all sinners or with all unconverted and by his soverign will he will pass over some and choose some to be saved by the drawing of his holy spirit. But he is angry at them even though unless he opens their eyes and they realize they our sinners who need to repent. But still why is he angry at those who have no choice in being unregenerated unless he does something to stop that. Also why would God be angry throughout the Bible at things he wills to happen, have any of these questions popped into anyones minds before, because they do me. Hey if this really is how God is then i will accept that, but why would God be angry at the things he purposes and wills to happen?

I have really struggled with these questions as well. I believe there are no easy answers, any argument I have ever heard around this topic seems to be dismissing scriptures on either side. God is good, and loving, and just. I am finding that holding onto these truths has helped. I will pray for you, that God would reveal more of Himself to you and that you would come to peace about who He is. I would appreciate the same.

Blessings

Please accept my lengthy response. I did not want to gloss over such a weighty subject. Here is my earnest reply, and if you prefer, here is an audio version that I made just now (13 minutes long):

[url=http://www.theopenlife.com/audioblog/20091206_Why%20Does%20God%20Hate%20Sinners.mp3]http://www.theopenlife.com/audioblog/20091206_Why%20Does%20God%20Hate%20Sinners.mp3[/url]

You asked,

"Why is [God] angry at those who have no choice in being unregenerated unless he does something to stop that. Also why would God be angry throughout the Bible at things he wills to happen? Have any of these questions popped into anyones minds before, because they do me. Hey if this really is how God is then i will accept that, but why would God be angry at the things he purposes and wills to happen?"

These are huge questions, and I'm glad you're thinking deeply. You must not expect brief or easy answers to such ponderous inquiries.

The most basic response is that from before time God possessed a perfectly wise plot for revealing His glory and magnifying His Son. He has all the power necessary to accomplish this plan, and the plan included His ordination and allowance of angelic and human sin, in ways that did not impugn His holiness. Though God is not a sinner, He is capable of decreeing the sins of others in a way that does not negate their personal responsibility. We cannot fathom this, but it is plain in scripture.Carefully consider the words of Joseph in Genesis 45,

"I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt. Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for [b]God did send me before you to preserve life[/b]... God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. [b]So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God[/b]: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt."

This fact is even more obviously demonstrated in Peter's proclamation that the crucifixion of Jesus was the foreordained design and act of God, though carried out willingly by men.

"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

A most jarring example is that of Caiaphas the High Priest, who uttered a prophecy, unknown to himself, that it would be better for one to die for the sins of many. John records in chapter 11 , "this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation." Again and again we witness men freely choosing to do specific things because God had sovereignly decreed them beforehand. Each of the events was sinful in itself and the actors were held accountable, yet God is always in the background determining certain people to do certain things. Their hands are called "wicked" and God remains holy. This is called Compatibilism. It is not something to comprehend by intellect, but to receive by faith and adore by experience.

I confess, I hardly understand how gyroscopes can balance on a such fine wires. But I have seen them balancing and accept the fact. Likewise, the testimony of scripture reveals the moral inability of man balancing right upon his moral responsibility.

Now, to explain why this is.

Fallen Man's inability to repent and believe the Gospel is not because he lacks brains or a body with which to consider the options, and utter a heartfelt prayer. His trouble is not because he lacks a will, either. The sickness of natural man lies much deeper than body, mind, or deeper still, than the mere will. No, the issue is with his nature.

What the nature desires, that it wills. We see this best in God, Himself. Would you dare to say God is capable of willing to sin? If you do, you blaspheme and understand little of His holiness. But if you agree that God cannot sin, then you admit there are limits to God's ability to will. What is the limit? Simply that His will is subject to His nature. His nature is only to do right, and therefore will not do wrong.

Perhaps we do better to state it thus, "God will never lie." And why not? Because there is nothing in Him, or shall ever be in Him, which could want to lie. His only desire is righteousness. Having no desire for sin, and too wise to be deceived into seeing some supposed benefit of doing so, He will only do right. His limitation is moral, not physical.

And now we come to consider natural man. What is his state? Natural man has a supreme and suicidal desire to grasp madly upon sin and self-righteousness. This yearning exceeds every reasonable notion to forsake death by faith in Christ. Man wants so badly to clutch sin that he would hold it like an anchor sinking to the seafloor, than to release and find life above. His resolution to die is so extreme that he cannot come to God, simply because he does not, nor will ever want to. The natural man cannot obey God's gospel commands for the exact same reason that the Lord cannot sin: his nature is opposed to it.

But is this idea evident in scripture? Overwhelmingly it is, to all who will see it. Christ heralded the grim truth. "No man comes to me unless the Father draws him!" [John 6:44] "No man" leaves no exception. According to the Omniscient One, none will come unless they are drawn by the Father. One might suppose that this drawing is a universal tugging at the heartstrings by a Cosmic Agent of diplomatic persuasion, but this is butchery of language. The word, "draw", is literally "to drag", and is used singularly to illustrate an external overpowering force. James chose this term to describe criminals being forced to court. [James 2:6] The word is used again when Peter hauls a net onto shore. [John 21:10-11] Paul and Silas were thus "drawn" in Philippi, being thrust forward into the marketplace by their enemies. [Acts 16:19] This is the word our Good Teacher employs when depicting the depth of need required to bring a man to Christ. The Father must carry sinners into the Kingdom.

At this time, one might still be holding onto the idea that John 6:44 refers to a universal drawing which includes all men. In the first place, not all men hear the gospel before dying, and how would this include them? More directly, the verse itself bars any such thought. Read the entirety, which says, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and [b]I will raise him up at the last day[/b]." The 'him' whom Christ raises to life on the last day is the same 'him' whom the Father drew. All and only those drawn receive this resurrection, which corresponds exactly with texts such as, " All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." [John 6:37] In short, those who come were drawn, or else they would not have come. All of those drawn, come.

Going again to the question of why men do not naturally come to Christ, we shall turn to the third chapter of John's gospel, where he writes, "this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one thatdoeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." John confirms what we have already stated, namely that "men loved darkness rather than light," and therefore "neithercometh to it."

The Apostle Paul expresses the same thought, saying, "There is none righteous, no, not one: There is not one that understands, there is not one that seeks after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one." [Romans 3]

These words are not an original thought, but are an echo David's fourteenth psalm, "They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none thatdoeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

The slightest searching after God would be called good, but here we see that none do the slightest good. If natural man seeks heaven, it is only to usurp God's throne. If carnal men desire God, it is for His powers and pleasures, rather then His Person.

Finally, we must ask what hope does the natural man have if he will not submit to God's commands, "repent and believe?" None in himself. And thus it must be, if Christ is to appear truly a Savior. For at this time a man is plowed and prepared for the paradoxical seeds of truth. The soil is freed of stones and vain ambitions, rooted and ready to hear Jesus' promises that, "if any man comes to Me, I shall in no wise cast Him out." "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." "Whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but has everlasting life."

The man who is brought to bear with his burden of guilt, to feel the depravity of his character finds himself bound in chains of sin. Worse still, he knows that his own hands are holding him to it. And yet, something is happening. As he hears the verdict of death and sees the bondage of his heart, he seems to feel something new: a confidence in Christ's promises, which is not based on man's ability but on Christ's power. The man finds in him something not present before. The man says to himself, "How badly I would like to go to Jesus. I know that I am dead in sin, but I want to come. I am unworthy, but Christ has said none are cast out who come." He wonders how a man can come if he is so desperately bound in sin. "I want to come, but... but..." And then he realizes that he has every qualification necessary. Christ has told him to come and be saved, and he believes. He wants to come, and he comes immediately.

What makes him trusting of Christ's promises? Faith, which comes as he hears the truths of the gospel and the message of Christ's Person and redemption. And where does this faith come from? Ephesians 2 says, "it is the gift of God." How is this faith wrought in one so dead in trespasses and sins? Titus 3 explains that the miracle follows a transformation of the nature called regeneration, or new birth. The new nature brings new desires, the first being to repent and believe on Christ for salvation. These new desires free the will to carry out the action. Thus we read,

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." [Titus 3]

We may at last conclude that God's anger towards unrepentant sinners is based on their moral unwillingness to repent. This unwillingness is so concrete that it cannot be remedied by anything less that a new birth by the Spirit, to bring about a new spiritual nature. God gives this to those He has elected in Christ before the foundation of the world, and it is discovered in all who desire to come. And for this we praise God, for to Him is all the glory.

May God bless him that hears these things.

-Michael Spotts:.

So you are saying that God hates all who are not chosen (which is most people) and that they are dammed to hell to be tormented and punished for eternity and they never even have a chance to be saved?
why create them?

Hi i am not a calvanist nor an arminanist, their is wonderfull truth in both camps!
To try and answer the question simply(if such a thing is possible!) and concisely, i would say:
God loves all mankind and wills that non should perish (this is clear from scripture) I dont believe God created anyone for hell. But as a Holy God He must punish sin. God in His infinite love provided His own Son as a sacrifice for our sin. We must recieve Him as Lord and Saviour. As for why some recieve the free gift and some don´t, I believe is behond anyones understanding.
As for predestination etc, God is omniscient and can see the response everyone will or wont make and you could say predestions us accordingly.
Could a just and righteous holy loving God draw some and not others? put the desire to respond in some and not others? I think these questions are beyond mere mans thoughts. all i know is in the final analasis God will be shown to be just and true and fair and holy and loving. And we will all say not just "shall not the God of all the earth do right" but "the God of all the earth DID do right!
Praise His wonderful name.

Thank you michael for your long thoughtful response i really appreciate it, these questions have bugged me a lot. In a way we can look atit as we our all satans children coming into this world and God has chosen the ones who will be made his children, but i am still having a hard time with dealing with the fact that the ones who won't believe or who aren't going to believe because they were not chosen before the foundation of the world our brought into the world our not going to been given grace our still feeling reality as much as us believers will feel torment in hell, and we know they won't choose god and will even hate him but that is because God didn't regenerate them to believe, but they will hate these torments and wish they would have repented if they only knew better. I am not trying to argue here at all because i respect your answer and you made sense but it still sounds better like this. That God sent his son to die for our sins, we all dead our sins need to be awakened by God through his holy spirit which would be his drawing or opening our eyes. So he draws all men some time in their life to jesus and they resist the holy spirit when god draws them or opens their eyes to the truth. THat sounds more logical to me, that we can only come if he draws but we can resist the drawing. I know you might say how can you resist his drawing and your probably right and i actually agree with what you said, but sounds more logical and i guess fair and to most people loving to all that he draws everyone and everyone has the opportunity to be saved of their sins but somehow they simply resist the spirit of god when he draws you. Our response or only chance is only possible by him opening our eyes when he draws us but somehow we can resist that even when he opens our eyes, it sounds more logical but biblically and from what i see around the world i would think that not everyone is really drawn or their eyes will not be opened up by God. I lean more to the calvinistic side from what i see, biblically i think both sides our actually a toss up, their our a few verses that could confirm the calvinistic view or that god only calls who he ordained, not just a few but a small amount i guess around the 10 verses mark but the same goes with God giving everyone a chance, i think it is a toss up, it is kinda like the eternal security or conditional security, their our verses for both sides, i am very unsure but i do lean to eternal security and the calvinistic view slightly more though. Anyways i finished reading the sermon, i liked how jonathan edwards still preached to everyone as if they all mattered still even though some might only believe. Thank you for all your responses.

thanks for the audio, i really appreciate you doing that.I don't want you to see my last response as being rude to the answer you gave me, i just had something else on my mind, but i will listen again to see if my answer is found in your answer that you gave me in case i missed it or misunderstood. But seriously thank you so much for going out of your way like that, we need more christians like you. John

bible1985,
I used to have many of the same questions that you have raised in this thread. For years I battled between what I read in scripture on this issue and what seemed "logical" and "fair" according to my understanding of the situation. In time, I got tired of having to ignore the obvious implications of many scriptures or trying to find a means of explaining them away. I finally concluded I would not try to make scriptures conform to my idea of who God was and how He operates, but rather, I would submit my understanding of who God was and how He operates to what I saw in scripture. Start with the revealed nature of God in scripture and let all of our ideas of how a "fair" God must conduct Himself be thrown out the window, because "He is good and all of His ways are good", even if we don't fully understand what He is doing according to His eternal plan. I pray you find peace and confirmation from the Lord as you continue to seek Him.

somebody i know responded to the question i asked like this

sw: Unwritten rule? Tis common sense. Shall we claim that God ordained that a man would murder and then was upset with him because he murdered?

Tis a laugher, but that's Calvinism for ya.

Responsibility in and of itself proves free will, that God does not cause man's sin in any way. He does not therefore give men a sin nature that makes it impossible for men not to sin. If that were so, they couldn't help it, and are not responsible. And, He does not ordain any single sin ever.

Responsibility for sin means man is the cause of sin, not God. It means man has free will to sin or not. Nothing forces man to sin or he would not be responsible for his sin.

Here's Calvinism for ya: I take the hand of my puppet, put a knife in its hand, and raise that hand and knife so that the puppet kills something. And then, I turn to the puppet in whose hand I put the knife and whose hand I forced to move to kill something, and I say, "You wicked puppet. Now you'll have to be punished." And I throw the puppet into the fire.

That's Calvinism.

Swordsman

Thank you all for patience while I prepared a response. May it be used of God.

To listen to the audio version, [url=http://www.theopenlife.com/audioblog/20090109_Why%20is%20God%20angry%20-%20part%202.mp3]click here[/url].

A number of retorts have come up which I felt worthwhile to confront.

I will begin with the statements of 123, who said,

So you are saying that God hates all who are not chosen (which is most people) and that they are dammed to hell to be tormented and punished for eternity and they never even have a chance to be saved? why create them?

The situation is more nuanced than that. I have answered this question thoroughly in a post for September 1st, 2008, entitled [url=http://theopenlife.blogspot.com/2008/09/does-god-love-all-people-equally.html]Does God love all people equally?[/url]

And now if I may reply to the comments of SimonB, that I appreciate your irenic spirit, however I must confront an error. Are you aware that your statement, "neither a Calvinist, nor an Arminian," is untenable because of the mutually exclusive beliefs of both sets? There is no valid middle ground. You may plead ignorance, or admit a total deviation from even the bare semblance of historic Christian faith, but there is no place for so-called Calminianism. For those interested, I offer an explanation of this in a post for January 14th, 2008, [url=http://theopenlife.blogspot.com/2008/01/neither-calvinism-nor-arminianism.html]"Neither Calvinism nor Arminianism."[/url]

Simon also said,

As for why some receive the free gift and some don´t, I believe is beyond anyone's understanding. As for predestination etc, God is omniscient and can see the response everyone will or wont make and you could say predestinates us accordingly. Could a just and righteous holy loving God draw some and not others? put the desire to respond in some and not others?

The argument that God's election is based on foreknowledge of who would, decisively of themselves, place faith in Christ, is not sound. A full choir of biblical texts sing the sobering notes: natural man does not seek God in any saving sense. Therefore, God could not have "looked ahead" to see men doing what they will not do!

Romans 8:7-8 says of unsaved persons, "the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Colossians 1:21 describes the lives of believers before they were born again. "You were formerly alienated and enemies in your mind, engaged in evil deeds."

Paul teaches that "whatsoever is not of faith, is sin." No unbeliever has true faith in Christ, and for this reason even his otherwise good works are made sinful. His every action is committed upon a usurped throne, like a treacherous despot using his false powers to mask villainy by acts of charity. This continual doing of evil, characteristic of the unbeliever, is what John eludes to when he writes, "Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." [John 3:20] Those who do evil, that is all faithless sinners, do not come to the light.

The heart which seeks God rightly, does so only because God has permitted him an allowance of grace not before enjoyed. Isaiah 65:1 says, "I [the Lord] permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me." This was necessary because, as Isaiah writes previously, "There is no one who calls on Your name, who arouses himself to take hold of You; for You have hidden Your face from us and have delivered us into the power of our iniquities." [Isaiah 64:7] For his sin, man has been delivered wholesale into the power of iniquity. "When they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened." [Romans 1:21]

This darkness and captivity to sin and the devil is so complete that we must pray for a sovereign work of God to undo it. 2 Timothy 2:25-26 instructs believers, "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." Here we see clearly that the will of natural man is subservient to the will of their captor, the devil, who in turn may be foiled by God's almighty will. If God wants them to repent, He grants them repentance and they are instantly freed from their willful enslavement to sin and Satan.

Some persons read Romans 3:10-12, which says "there is none who seeks for God", and interpret the passage to mean that no one would have sought God unless He first revealed Himself through nature, philosophy, or the gospel itself. But after He reveals Himself, lost people change their minds and decide to believe. Such persons seem to think that God comes to us and presents a choice, to have faith or remain in disbelief, but does nothing more internal or effectual. The trouble with this view is that natural man will not place faith in Christ, even if the information is served to him on John's platter. Let us reason about this.

The scriptures divide men uniformly into two categories, natural and spiritual. (1 Cor 2:14, Romans 8:7-8) Natural men are not yet saved. Spiritual men are those who have been born of the Spirit. In this context, those who have genuine faith cannot be called natural. This fact implies that up to very moment before one has true faith in Christ, he is yet carnal. Now reconsider the passage,

"The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor 2:14)

Again, there are only two categories, natural and spiritual. Before one becomes a spiritual man he is a natural man. So long as he is natural he will not receive the things of God as pertaining to himself. How can he choose to become a spiritual man if spiritual things seem foolish to him?

Not only do the things of God seem foolish to the natural man, but he cannot know them. Again, the moment before one has faith, he is certainly a carnal man. What does this mean with passages like Romans 8:7-8, "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." It is not just that carnal man thinks the way of God by faith is foolish, but he is at enmity with God. He is fighting to be accepted by his own deeds, or to go on in sin without repentance. According to his relentless internal wickedness he would have gone on forever in enmity against God's way, because he "neither indeed can be" made submissive to God's law of faith.

How then may carnal people place trust in Christ? Because in a single instant of time, being understood in logical order, God transforms - that is, regenerates, or rebirths- elect persons in such a way that their lively souls are freed from sin to believe that the promises of salvation are not only for others, but to them, and by faith these promises are applied to the elect. Again, this is not successive in time, but logically speaking regeneration proceeds faith.

I understand the alarm people might feel towards what I have just said, because I once held similar views. Feelings aside, the Arminian perspective remains a mere optic filter held between man and the word of God, to distort the Redemptive message into one that coheres with a natural sense of entitlement and mistaken assumptions about justice.

Romans 9 pours smoke in the hole of every serpentine notion of self-determination:

When Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

The original poster, nicknamed Bible 1985, wrote concerning souls in hell,

They will hate these torments and wish they would have repented if they only knew better.

Bible 1985 also suggested that,

"[God] draws all men some time in their life to Jesus and they resist the holy spirit when God draws them or opens their eyes to the truth."

One might hope men who never hear the gospel shall be judged according to their consciences, by how they responded to the work of the law in their hearts. This is a cloud without water, it is a hopeless hope. Romans 5 asserts that by virtue of Adam's sin and the fallen nature which it endows, all men are born into condemnation:

"As one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous."

Finally, Bible1985 quoted a person who said,

I take the hand of my puppet, put a knife in its hand, and raise that hand and knife so that the puppet kills something. And then, I turn to the puppet in whose hand I put the knife and whose hand I forced to move to kill something, and I say, "You wicked puppet. Now you'll have to be punished." And I throw the puppet into the fire. That's Calvinism.

The inability to conceive how God decrees sin without morally approving or partaking in it does not negate the reality of the fact. Did not God send a lying spirit to king Ahab? 1 Kings 22:22, says,

And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Would any believer take credit for his being a vessel of gold or silver in God's house? Could any sinner accuse God of injustice for not sending the gospel to his land? We do not ask the kettle if he approves of either our filling him with sweet tea or setting him over the flames. Household vessels are chosen and used as the homeowner decides. Likewise, the visible church is a great house in which the Lord has vessels chosen for honor, and others which are being prepared for the dishonor of damnation:

[2 Tim 2:20] "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour."

Amen, and may God bless the reader.

Hi Openlife,
I am not offended one iota in your reply to me, but i think you should be careful about saying you are confronting an error! I realise you are young and enthousiastic and passionate about your doctrinal stance, and clearly seek the Lord, but:
It is not eronious to say that i am neither Calvanist or arminian, I am sure you realise that Jesus would have claimed to belong to no such camp!!!!
We are called to love and serve God and to love one another. You are wrong to say their is no middle ground, if you think one must be either calvanist or arminian then you my friend are mistaken!
I love the Word and love truth but dont think I am in error because you dont know what box to put me in or your presumption based on your doctrinal bias tells you so.
in love
simon

Did not john calvin murder someone from what i read and also my friend told me hated the jews. If that is true how could any of us want to be called calvinist, i could see agreeing with his views but come on we our christians saved by grace. Also did not the early church fathers agree that all humans had the chance to be saved.

Bible 1985,

Peter denied the Savior, and even after being filled with the Spirit he shunned the Gentiles. His errors do not falsify the truths he spoke. Calvin's impression that he was bound by moral duty to legally prosecute a gross heretic was typical to his day, however well hindsight reveals otherwise. His mistakes are not standard of the term, Calvinism, which simply refers to five soteriological distinctions which were held by thousands before and after Calvin. Wycliffe, Huss, Tyndale, Luther, and Augustine all proceeded Calvin, and yet are called "Calvinists" because it is shorthand for similar beliefs about salvation. Do you use the word Christmas, knowing it's imperfect origins? Or Easter? May we set aside the ad hominem arguments to consider the issue - why God saves some and not others.

May I ask you this: Phillip was caught away by God's Spirit to Azotus, where he preached. Why does God not catch many other willing saints to certain cities which have no Christian light? God still has the power to do so, and yet He allows the gospel to be hindered and souls to be lost. I frequently hear believers say, "God has put a burden on my heart for such-and-such a place." Whether or not this is so, the question remains, why does God burden a believer for one place and not another? The gospel goes here and not there, though it could have by God's providence.

What are we asking God to do in a revival? Plead with people? We can do that much ourselves. As a believer in Sovereign Grace, I ask God to save people effectually, and if He wills He does. Those who deny the effectual grace of God can only grieve that sinners are unwilling to come, and bemoan that God can do no more.

Simon B, I appreciate you irenic Spirit. I still exhort you to consider the either/or statements of both sides. For instance, either you do or you do not believe that God's election was based solely upon His gracious choice of some to life, regardless of foreseen faith or perseverance, both of which are the consequence of election and not the cause of it.

As for being motivated by youthful zeal, I have read similar words to my own from the pens of aged and experienced men, too.

I'm glad we can write in love.

HiOpenlife,
I am writing this in love and in a hope that iron sharpens iron. It is wonderful to see a young man zealous for the Lord and truth. Andi am sure as you lay your life (and your doctrines) before the Lord He will develop you.
But please consider this: I am not addressing the context of your posts, you are clearly convinced of your position and I believe as you are open before the Lord He will lead you into all truth, and I will not try convince you of anything.
Its the style you write in which is at times un-Christlike. It shows a condersion and a smattering of arogance. I have walked with The Lord a number of years yet you seem to presume that I may not of considered these things at length before the Lord.
You would come across better if you considered more the way you write and not just what you write.
I hope you recieve this in the spirit it was written
your brother
simon