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The International House of Prayer Onething Conference "ESCHATOLOGICAL REVOLUTION!" (video).

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davidt Jan 6, 2009

I believe there are some special messages spoken at this conference mainly by Mike Bickle. The meeting has already past however the archived videos are available. This conference was much different then the others. Usually there is an emphasis on intimacy, prayer, and other things with breakout sessions and popular speakers and singers from various places. This time however that did not occur it was more solemnly and singly focused on the end times and preparing for such times and the "true" end times message was proclaimed. What I mean by that is specifically the time is at hand even at the door, the Church will go through the tribulation so we must prepare now like John the Baptist did for Jesus' first coming, we need to stand with Israel, and so forth.

[url=http://38.100.176.140/vod/pl/otarch.html]click here[/url]

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KingJimmy Jan 6, 2009

Looks like Art Katz might have rubbed off on Mike Bickle a bit?

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TaylorOtwell Jan 6, 2009

Frankly, I'm confused. I don't know what people mean when they say we should "stand with Israel".

I'm not sure why we should treat them any differently than we treat other earthly nations. We treat them with respect and dignity. However, I don't think many Christians are accepting the fact that modern day Judaism is an apostate, idolatrous religion, which would actually be sinful to support.

It seems to me that not heeding Paul's writings to Galatia and Ephesus is producing false definitions of Israel.

That being said, I do hope for a large turning to Christ amongst the ethnic Jews.

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davidt Jan 6, 2009

Jimmy,

Yes I am sure to some degree if not substantially. I know that he would come and speak here at IHOP sometimes and that that has been since the early days and there are other ties. David Pawson is another guy I believe the revelation series by him here on SI is from when he spoke in KC. I would say mainly though that the Lord taught him. I myself had sought God for quite a while and longingly and even though I was in a major Tim Lahaye type pre trib setting I came to have the scripture clearly opened to me. Even with Israel I had started to tend toward replacement theology and just not really caring but I knew in my heart what was right and the word is blunt on the matter so as I was ready I learned the importance of the elect people and am. So I would think the Mike also learned the same way as He went deep in God and it was shown to him for there is a spiritual war behind this. The genuine believers who seek God and don't compromise will understand and hopefully as the day draws near it will increase and the bride will know how to make herself ready.

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davidt Jan 6, 2009

Taylor,

Thank you for your comment and concern... I am going to write kind of straight forward to to communicate clearly so please do not be offened by anything.

This can be a difficult subject. I believe we should approach it with humility especially because it must largely be learned spiritually. If anything I believe that we have lost a centralized vision for the Jews and a passion for them. I believe that this goes against the secular mind in that it is labeled racist and other things. I believe it goes against the heart that is filled with an anti Christ spirit even in Christians. I take this stance because the scripture do. I still have some learning to do and have some gray areas but I will convey what I do comprehend.

God chose Abram, and Israel, and David, and so forth and made promises to them that are still to be fulfilled. He did not choose them because they were great but because they were weak. God's original plan is to work through Israel to be a light to the world however it is not happening that way right now but if there falling away means reconciliation how much more there return. They have blessed us in spiritual ways carrying the scriptures and bearing the Messiah so we are to bless the naturally. Even when Israel was rebellious God still rebuked nations for not treating them the way that He wanted. God even now is preserving His people and placed them in their land so that they will remain a people. So if God is blessing them at least to a degree then we also should. If Jesus was so passionate about their salvation and Paul was and the whole reason for Him turning to us was to make them jealous then we also should be zealous for them almost even that we would be accursed from Christ in intercession for them for we must remember that the gospel is first to the Jew. This is God's prophetic will and so I must stand with it and share God's heart. We have forgotten how central Israel is to Christianity look at how many of the biblical authors were Jewish look at how focused God has been on them throughout history and it has not changed there is no such thing a an Old and New Testament God He is the same. I am sure there is more I could write and I have written without planning it out but I hope this will suffice.

[edit] p.s. I believe if you search through some of Art Kats sermons you should be able to find some solid topical messages on this topic.

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TaylorOtwell Jan 6, 2009

David,

Thank you for the kind reply.

I guess the main difference between us would be that I find the true Israel and the promises to be fulfilled by faith, and Paul states, that though it is a great mystery, the Gentiles are included in this.

Maybe one case study would be to look at how Peter interprets
the promise to rebuild the fallen house of David. I believe this is
in Acts 2, but I am on my phone and don't have a Bible nearby (edit: way off. It is in Acts 15:16-17).

Another passage to consider would be in Ephesians where Paul tells Gentile that they once were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, but are such no longer, this implying they are part of the true Israel.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

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davidt Jan 6, 2009

Taylor,

This is one of the difficult things that I was talking about.

I know we are called sons of Abraham and circumcised at heart and one with them but that is about as far as I would go we are nowhere called explicitly Israel and I think that is to make a distinction though there is much commonality.

Paul states in Romans that God has not utterly cast away Israel and that He would restore them and they are mentioned in Revelation distinct from the Church that is mentioned early on.

So there are some sticky things. There is Israel and then there is true Israel. There is natural Israel and then there is spiritual Israel. I think though that natural Israel has a spiritual advantage and prominence and so in that they are to be emphasized. The natural and the spiritual has been tied together to an extent but not totally. So I try to keep it simple as I find it hard to find words to clearly portray as I ought but hopefully I am getting my thought across.


Is there anyone else out there that would like to input on Israel? Specifically but not exclusively on the reasons and ways we are to be for Israel.

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davidt Jan 6, 2009

I also wanted to mention this page since it has free resources on the end times like sermons and articles with 100 most FAQ's and so forth.

[url=http://ihop.org/Group/Group.aspx?ID=1000036187]click here[/url]

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davidt Jan 7, 2009

"Has God forsaken His people?" Michael Brown ICN Ministries:


Some things are non-negotiable. God’s covenant with Israel is one of them. How could He have made Himself more clear?

He gave His oath to Abram, and reiterated it six more times to Abraham, to his son Isaac and to his grandson Jacob. On one occasion, “When God made His promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for Him to swear by, He swore by Himself” (Heb. 6:13).

Why did God speak so decisively? It was because He “wanted to make the unchanging nature of His purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, [so] He confirmed it with an oath’ (Heb. 6:17). God Who cannot lie bound Himself by an oath!

His covenant with Israel was reiterated through Moses, repeated by the prophets and rehearsed by the psalmists. Jesus Himself affirmed it (Matt. 19:28), Paul articulated it (Rom. 9-11) and the gates of the New Jerusalem announce it forever (Rev. 22:11-12). God has chosen Israel as His covenant people.

What if Israel broke the covenant? What would then happen to them? Listen to these unmistakably clear truths: “Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished” (Jer. 30:11). God will completely destroy other nations, but He will not completely destroy Israel! He treats His people differently from other people; they are judged more strictly, but they will never be wiped out.

No matter what Israel does, God will never forsake them as a distinct people. In Jeremiah 31:31-34, the Lord declares that He will make a new covenant with Israel and Judah. But He doesn’t stop there. It’s as if He’s saying, “Now, don’t get me wrong! Don’t think that this new covenant means that I’m abandoning My people. No!”

This is what the LORD says, He who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar – the LORD Almighty is His name: “Only if these decrees vanish from My sight,” declares the LORD, “will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before Me.” This is what the LORD says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the LORD (Jer. 31:35-37).

As long as there is a sun, moon, stars, earth, and sea, there will be a distinct people of Israel – no matter what they do. It’s God’s promise! It’s true!

“Is not Ephraim my dear son, the child in whom I delight? Though I often speak against him, I shall remember him. Therefore My heart yearns for him, I have great compassion for him,” declares the Lord (Jer. 31:20)

Look at how relevant God’s prophetic word is to our day and age. For centuries the Church, in arrogance, because of ignorance, claimed that she alone was the true Israel, that she had replaced the ancient covenant people. The Church taught that it was the Christians alone who were the true Jews. (How strange that these Christians were not claiming to be Jewish during the Holocaust!) The Church taught emphatically that the physical people of Israel (those who were ethnically Jewish and those who joined the nation through conversion to Judaism) were eternally rejected.

This is not some worn-out old doctrine. It is on the increase again in our day. Yet the Lord is not surprised. Twenty-five hundred years ago, He already addressed this issue:

The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: “ Have you not noticed that these people are saying, ‘The LORD has rejected the two kingdoms He chose?’ So they despise My people and no longer regard them as a nation. This is what the LORD says: ‘If I have not established My covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and have compassion on them’ ” (Jer. 33:23-26)

People are still murmuring against Israel and despising the people and the nation.

God’s answer is still the same: “I will never reject them!”

What exactly did God promise Abraham and his descendants? How long are His promises good? Psalm 105 has the answer for us.

He remembers His covenant forever, the word He commanded for a thousand generations, the covenant He made with Abraham, the oath He swore to Isaac. He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant: “To you I will give the land of Canaan as the portion you will inherit” (Ps. 105:8-11).

Did God make himself clear? The Scriptures speak of God’s covenant, the word He commanded, His oath which He confirmed as a decree forever, for a thousand generations, as an everlasting covenant. The Lord is trying to make a point!

Not only did He promise to bless Abraham and make him into a great nation; not only did He promise to multiply his seed; not only did He promise to make him the father of many nations; not only did He promise to bless those who blessed him and curse those who cursed him; He also promised Abraham the land of Canaan, with clearly defined borders, as an everlasting inheritance to his natural descendants – until this earth is no more.

Amazingly, some teachers have tried to get out of this perpetual land promise to Israel. They claim that in the New Testament, neither Jesus nor the apostles ever reiterate this particular aspect of the covenant. But why should they reiterate it? When almost all of the New Testament was being written, about one million Jews were living in the Land, Jerusalem was the spiritual and national capitol and the Temple was still standing. And Jesus made it clear that, despite Jerusalem’s soon-coming destruction – a destruction that would last “until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” – He would come back to a Jewish Jerusalem (Luke 21:24; Matt. 23:37-39). Obviously Jews would be in the Land!

But there is another reason why Jesus and the apostles did not explicitly stress the land promise to their people. The specifics of God’s covenant with the patriarchs were so clearly stated in the Scriptures that it would have been a waste of words to repeat them all! David Brown, the respected nineteenth century Bible commentator, was correct when he said: “What is permanent in the kingdom of God under the Old Testament is PRESUMED in the New.”

And let all believers who question Israel’s rights to the Land, based on the New Testament, take note of this: The New Testament doesn’t state that Israel would be exiled from the Land either! Both of these Old Testament truths, Israel’s scattering and Israel’s regathering, are presumed in the New.

The covenant God made with Israel is just like the covenant He made with David. The Lord declared to David that He would establish a lasting dynasty for him. He gave this promise to David’s son who would succeed him on the throne:

When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. But My love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before Me; your throne will be established forever (2 Sam. 7:14-16)

What a wonderful word! In spite of David’s terrible sin and Solomon’s tragic backsliding, in spite of the godlessness of Davidic kings like Ahaz and Manasseh, the kingdom would never be taken from his physical descendants.

When the kingdom was divided and God gave Jeroboam the ten northern tribes, He did so to humble David’s descendants, “but not forever” (1 Kin. 11:39). He still left one tribe with the sons of David, “so that David My servant may always have a lamp before Me in Jerusalem, the city where I chose to put My Name” (1 Kin. 11:36). The King of kings and Lord of lords is a direct descendant of David! God was faithful to keep His word to David, and He is just as faithful to keep His word to Israel.

His covenant with Abraham is just as unconditional and everlasting as His covenant with David. Read Genesis 15 carefully. In ancient days, that is how covenants were made. Sacrificial animals were cut in two and their severed bodies placed in two lines. Both parties entering into the covenant would then walk between the carcasses. By doing so they were symbolically saying, “If I break this binding agreement, if I fail to uphold my side of the pact, then let me suffer the same fate that these animals have suffered.” But something was different in Genesis 15. Only God passed through the pieces! This was a one-way deal (see Gen. 15:17-21)

The Land belonged to other nations. But at the proper time it would be given to Abraham’s seed. If they violated the terms of the covenant – especially as expressed through Moses – then they would be punished and even driven temporarily from the Land. But just as God’s word to David stands firm, His word to Abraham endures, no matter what Israel does. This is what He said through Moses. When the Israelites are

…in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking My covenant with them. I am the LORD their God. But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the LORD (Lev. 26:44-45; see also Deut. 4:27, 30-31)

Even today, when “As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on [our] account; [yet] as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:28-29). Could anything be more plain?

Right now the great majority of the Jewish people are our “enemies” as far as the gospel is concerned. They reject our message (the Orthodox Jews reject it most strongly), and some even actively oppose it. As individuals, they forfeit their covenant blessings when they turn from Jesus the Messiah. But as a people, they are still elect and loved “on account of the patriarchs.” Otherwise, God’s promises have no meaning and election has no significance. “Abraham, I’m swearing by Myself, I’m putting My reputation on the line. I will bless your offspring always – no matter what. (But I may replace them with someone else one day!)” That is not the Lord that we serve.

God’s covenant with Abraham is just as unconditional and everlasting as His covenant with the Church. The Lord “saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy” (Titus 3:5). Praise God, we were chosen by grace! But we are not the only recipients of the Lord’s unmerited favor. To Israel, Moses said:

The LORD did not set His affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath He swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt (Deut. 7:7-8).

Sounds familiar, doesn’t it? God’s covenants with Israel and with the Church are based on His promise, not our performance.

Old Testament Israel and the New Testament Church both stood, and still stand, by grace. Both received God’s eternal promises. Together we make up the family of God: The faithful ones of Israel and the chosen ones from every nation become one new man out of the two, one body, one people. “For through Him [Jesus!] we both have access to the Father by one Spirit” (Eph. 2:18). Great is the wisdom of God.

This is not what the Muslims believe. It is a fundamental tenet of the Koran that both Israel and the Church failed. Moses was a prophet. Jesus was a prophet. But Muhammad was the seal of the prophets, the messenger of the final revelation. The Jews are not the people of God – they failed! The Christians are not the people of God – they failed! It is Muslims who are the people of God.

Of course, this is preposterous. But, in the event that you are still uncertain about the calling of Israel, consider this simple truth: If God could forsake Israel, in spite of His unconditional, everlasting promises, then He could forsake the Church! If God could replace Israel, in spite of His unconditional, everlasting promises, then He could replace the Church! So, if you hold to a theology that says, “God has forsaken physical Israel,” or “The Church has replaced Israel,” you had better be extremely careful.

Maybe the Koran is right!


When I was reading this article this verse came to mind, "Rom 11:28-29 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance."

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davidt Jan 7, 2009

Jimmy, I like the Ben Israel's home page pic.

http://www.benisrael.org/images/sign2_wjmn.jpg

sermonindex Jan 7, 2009

IHOP is a movement that has largely embraced "another spirit" and promotes some really "out there" false prophecies -not to mention their endorsement of false revivals and their past affiliation with men such as Todd Bentley.

I have been to a couple IHOP churches personally and in one I discerned a strong evil presence of demons of sexual perversion, and this was confirmed by the fact that many people in that church had sexual struggles. In another, there was a strange spirit, I think it was divination or something of the sort, and the spiritual presence of it was mystic and creepy. The place was not filled with the Holy Spirit.

Look, most of what they "SAY" might be good, but the issue is the SPIRIT behind what they are saying that is infecting people with demonic bondages. I would strongly warn anyone who is in any way absorbing the stuff that IHOP puts out to get away from it immediately and to seek Christ.

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davidt Jan 7, 2009

Sorry about making so many posts about this topic I guess but I have just been coming upon these resources progressively. So here is an audio message from Michael Brown that is actually called "stand with Israel". I believe this is a pretty well layed out message from a man that specializes in this area and more so then my self specifically at this point.

[url=http://www.icnministries.org/israel/audio.htm]click here[/url]

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savannah Jan 7, 2009

The Roots of Christian Zionism Part I, The Cause of the Conflict
Charles E. Carlson Dec 08, 2008

America’s war based economy depends on Christians’ support Christian Zionists, by whatever name, are the primary public enablers of serial wars upon Islamic states. Why? Because they have been conditioned to think of Islam as an anathema to them, much as many of us were trained to consider communists our ideological enemies a generation ago. Most Christian celebrity media leaders have allowed themselves to be used as propagandists against Islamic states with independent governments, including Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Somalia, Bosnia, and in the future, Islamic states of Iran and Sudan. Our purpose is to examine why and how this has been done, why it is wrong and what can be done to correct it.

The Christian Right’s world war on Islam was observed as early as 1983, and became official in 1991 with the first destruction on Iraq. Only Christian Zionists (known by many names) believe war is an inevitable part of their religion, so they do little to resist it. Due to this un-Christ like error, they have become the primary cause of our conflict, a conflict that has become perpetual.

Christian Zionists, by whatever name, are the only remaining faction of any size that supports the war in Iraq. Therefore, they are largely responsible for the economic and social disaster, and due to the distortion of their own faith, they are the seeds of their own destruction. We find them among our friends, families and associates. This is a problem because we can not just turn our back on Christian Zionists, despise them, and call them fools; they are among our best friends, bosses, even our wife or children, so we need to learn to deal with them. In their formidable numbers we find them our best hope for the positive change from the warmaking state.

Endless wars always have, and always will result in the destruction of both the morality and the currency of the aggressor and are historically destructive to religious freedom. High priced gasoline and food can be accurately laid at the feet of those few industrialists and politicians who see war in their own interest. They deceive Christian Zionists, making them enablers, believing that war is necessary to their faith. Judeo-Christians can be easily swayed to support conflict, so long as a Muslim is on the receiving end of our bombs and bullets, and so long as the state of Israel is perceived to benefit from it.

I am in no way excusing cowardly Congressmen for knuckling under to the war lobby. We know some few gain a lot financially from war, and work for it. But these professional Warmakers are far too mercenary to believe that a God controls their eternal destiny. I also do not dismiss the influence of Jewish Zionists, who consider war in the Middle East in their national interest. But for every Jewish Zionist in America there are ten or twenty Christian Zionists doing the work of the former.

It is my belief, as a follower of Jesus Christ, that Christians who turn from Jesus’ words, “Blessed are the peacemakers, and love your brother…even your enemies, as you love yourself”…these “Christians” deserve the hottest places in hell, as Dante put it. For if those who claim they follow Christ fail to stand for justice and protection of the innocent, who will?

Change can only come from understanding the Roots of Christian Zionism. To this end it is urgent that all Americans of all religions understand why Christian Zionists believe what they do. Those who try to follow Christ need to rescue decent souls to more orthodox Christianity, one by one.

Most Christian Zionists don’t know they are Zionists and might deny it. They usually describe themselves as Evangelicals, Dispensationalists, pre-Millennialists, or a “Born Again Christian.” Very few are comfortable with the radical elements of Christian Zionism if they stop to think about it, but they do not. Their church is to most, a comfortable social outlet, especially for their families, and a society that they desire. Their societal links are much better defined than the theological ones which most do not understand and can not recite.

Restoring the walk to Jesus’ Way can save America.

If Christian Zionism can be correctly exposed as a warring religion, America may be restored to peace, justice, and at least to some of the prosperity which we have lost. Many of us are all beginning to suffer economic distress as a result of the very wars Christian Zionists have supported, supposedly because these wars please God and are necessary for Jesus’ return to earth.

At the apex of the Christian Zionist sect (which is only 100 years old) are leaders who include media personalities such as John Hagee, Rod Parsley, Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, and hundreds more. Each has openly expressed the view that war upon Islamic states is necessary and welcome. Currently, most of these call for America’s next planned serial war against Iran. Sudan is also on the war agenda.

Dispensational bible students can be found in almost any church of any denomination because of the effectiveness of radio churches and giant international bible studies in homes and churches that transcends denominational descriptions. For instance, some Roman Catholics, Episcopalians and Lutherans are Christian Zionists because of their outside Bible studies and are ignoring the contradictions to orthodox Christianity espoused by their own church. In this sense, Christian Zionism is a disease or a parasite upon orthodox or traditional Christianity.

The sixty-four dollar question is how do you identify a Christian Zionist, and how do you know if you are one? We have developed a 10 word litmus test that is non-invasive and usually welcome, so you can ask any churchgoer without hurting his feelings or starting an argument: "Do you believe the state of Israel is the fulfillment of biblical prophesy?"

Tens of millions of Americans need to face this question, for if they believe Israel is the fulfillment of biblical prophesies, then where does Jesus fit in? Simply stated, either Jesus or Israel is the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Old Testament, but there is not room in Christianity for both. If you have been taught that political Israel is in any way involved in your spiritual life, you are infected!

Orthodox or traditional Christians have always believed that Jesus, not Israel is the correct answer. Only Christian Zionism (by definition) assumes that political Israel is in God’s plan for the future, and that in spite of its intolerance, racism, and constant wars, political Israel is the chosen people of God.

Today about one-third of the 210 million American adults who identity themselves in polls and census as Christians, are influenced by Christian Zionism. That is about 70 million, most of whom vote, making Christian Zionists the most powerful and coveted voting block in the world, as can be clearly seen during an election year, translating into some 26 million votes! This means they are much coveted by every political candidate.

The most obvious example was John McCain’s reckless pursuit of Christian Right support that had led him to gross embarrassment at the pulpit of both maniacal Zionists, John Hagee and Rod Parsley, both of whom call for nuclear destruction of Iran.

The teachings of Jesus Christ inescapably demand peace and love of one’s neighbors. This has been America’s one badge of righteousness. In the mid-19th Century, America’s churches led the cry for peace in a world where wars were all too common. It was later, at the turn of the 20th Century that Christian Zionism first took root.

The French author Alexis deTocqueville wrote of churches while he traveled here in the first third of the 19th Century. He sang the praises of America’s invulnerable strength and spirit which he attributed to our citizens sense of morality, and even to the abundant church attendance he observed in America, which of course he would not find in his native France.

DeTocqueville wrote: “America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great.” He could not know that the churches he saw as the source of conscience were under a moral attack aimed at the very sense of justice he observed within them.

War seeds immorality
The first attack on the churches came with the War Between the States in 1861-65, which scarred the sense of justice and morality and diminished and divided churches as only a brutal war can. The terrible slaughter called the War Between the States taught moral Christian men about mass killing. But it did not change their New Testament Bible; it simply allowed men to ignore it.

The most powerful theological attack on Christianity came from Oxford University Press in England, which in 1908 published a false and intentionally misleading reference Bible called the Scofield Reference Bible aimed at creating a new religion, with the future state of Israel a semi-God in it. The term “dispensationalism” was taken from Scofield’s book, and is an assault on orthodox Christianity. Oxford did not just publish the book; it promoted it into the key places of study in America where opinion could be molded to cloud the peacemaking tradition of Christianity.

Most pastors and teachers were unaware of any danger. A few foresaw the consequences of the heresy that to most seemed foolish, outlandish, and embarrassing. Few guessed it would come to dominate American Christianity when in 1948 the State of Israel came into existence.

This new religion that chose the friendly pseudonym “evangelicalism” is the topic of our discussion. Religion scholars on both sides often identified it as “Dispensationalism” or “Pre-millennialism,” and “Judeo-Christianity” which are popular synonyms. We will presently explain some of these changes in detail, but first I want to show you how world-Zionism sold its stepchild to Christians.

The World Zionist movement was in full charge toward occupying Arab Palestine by 1913. It was given a huge financial and promotional boost through Oxford University Press in England, which to the amazement of Biblical scholars published a new bible of Christian Zionism in 1908 called the Scofield Reference Bible. This book would be used as the launching pad for a methodical and spiritually deceptive growth of the new sect. Its leading was to be subtly used to help lure America into two unnecessary world wars.

Not all mainline Christians were asleep.

One of the few who saw the warmaking and heretical danger of the new sect, and actually called it “Zionism” was a well-known attorney, Phillip Mauro, turned scholar, who wrote a brilliant critique of the new cult in his 1927 book, Gospel of the Kingdom. Mauro wrote:

“Through a recent occurrence I was made aware of the extent- far greater than I had imagined – to which the modern system of dispensationalism has found acceptance amongst orthodox Christians; and also the extent- correspondingly great- to which the recently published “Scofield Bible” (which is the main vehicle of the new system of doctrine referred to) has usurped the place of authority that belongs to God’s Bible alone.”

Mauro went on:
“Let it be understood at the outset that my controversy is solely with the doctrine itself and not at all with those who hold and teach it, or any of them. Indeed I was myself of their number for so long a time that I can but feel a tender consideration and a profound sympathy likewise, for all such.”

Phillip Mauro has been an encouragement to your writer, and to all those who support We Hold These Truths. He was a dedicated scholar with an engineer’s logic, and a lawyer’s tenacity that allowed him to foresee errors in 1927, that many like myself took five decades to recognize.

This writer must admit and echo Mauro’s confession; for I, too, was “of their number” and like Mauro, I share “profound sympathy” for those caught up in dispensationalism. As his words suggest, we are not fighting Christian Zionists; we are trying to reclaim them.

Dr. F. Furman Kearley was another who saw the path to war in the errors of dispensationalism. He was head of graduate studies at Adeline Christian University in 1983 when he wrote of Christian Zionism’s evil fruit of perpetual war in the Middle East. His short book, The Middle East Crisis in Biblical Perspective, takes sharp issue with those he calls Israel First Millennialists. He names radical prophet Hal Lindsay, and the late Jerry Falwell, whom he said would lead us into endless war with Islamic states.

Kearley noted: “When the concept of Armageddon, as in Revelation 16:16 is raised, those who believe in a literal war at Armageddon often feel that Christians should work to start this war, and should vigorously participate in it. Those in particular who view this present situation as Armageddon…believe that Christians should support Israel with vigor and urge our government to take an active part in the conflict in the Middle East.”

Kearley saw Christian Zionist’s support of Israel’s brutal occupation of Palestine as a precursor to more war in the Middle East. He concludes:
“One needs to be absolutely certain that the doctrine he follows is God’s and not of men before he advocates a doctrine that would put the blood of other men on our hands.”

Dr. F. Furman Kearley explains the neo-Christians’ love affair with war as a religious fixation, correctly stating: “Christians must (as a matter faith) pray for peace in the Middle East. Premillenialists must pray and work for World War III, so Armageddon will come. They cannot pray for peace.”

If a follower of Christian Zionism would only examine the simple teaching of Jesus in the New Testament he will find not a single passage or phrase that would give a follower of Christ cause to take the life of another man, or another man’s child. Certainly we must not kill a man’s wife in a far away country. No such permission exists.-End Part I

URL http://whtt.org/index.php?news=2&id=2724


In Part II: We examine the bitter fruit of Christian Zionist's error...how followers of Christ were detoured to accept a false and anti-Jesus doctrine of Christian Zionism that leads to the death of millions in the name of Christianity.

K
KathleenP Jan 7, 2009

I must humbly say that in all due respect to the zeal to that is displayed here on behalf of the Jews and the prophecies concerning their time of salvation, we must be very discerning as to when this time will be.

As our dear Brother Art Katz stated, they are at a place of self sufficiency and self righteousness that only a great breaking will deliver them from. Are we "prophetic" minded saints ready to watch Jerusalem become leveled and destroyed? Are we aware enough of the need to cause great distress among them so they can receive the love of the truth? When Jerusalem is laid in heaps and the modern prophets scratch their heads in wonder because they did noy realize that modern Jerusalem was not rebuilt by righteous godly men as in the days of Nehemiah and Ezra.

Only by a great humbling will the Jewish nation begin to seek their Messiah and we must be the priestly nation that the word declares His people to be in order to present to them the true gospel of godliness and repentence. The Lord is rebuilding and refining a holy people and it must people patterned according to His word and not man's portrayel of holiness. I have a sincere desire to see the salvation of the Jews, but it can ONLY be done the Lord's way.

In light of all this, I must agree with Josef_Urban concerning the Call and Mike Bickle. Dear saints, I have stated before that messages that Art Katz had spoken before their congretion rebuked them for their loud music and "modern" trappings. We were never meant to be a "with it church in a "with it" world.

I have discerned the sexual spirits surrounding the congregation and spirits of sorcery and witchcraft. I am not a child in this sort of knowledge and I do not intend to speak this to cause strife. In malice we are to be children, but in knowledge we are to be men. I cannot support this organization in all good conscience because of what I see spiritually, reguardless of the zeal displayed.

For some reason, even the word "revolution" echos of rebellion to me. I am concerned.

Sincerely in Christ Jesus, Kathleen

T
TroyorTakoda Jan 7, 2009

Frankly, I'm confused. I don't know what people mean when they say we should "stand with Israel". I'm not sure why we should treat them any differently than we treat other earthly nations. We treat them with respect and dignity. However, I don't think many Christians are accepting the fact that modern day Judaism is an apostate, idolatrous religion, which would actually be sinful to support.

Have you seen my post on human rights in Gaza?

T
TroyorTakoda Jan 7, 2009

Very good stuff, Savannah. I bookmarked that link. I am going to a Gaza protest this Friday, so please pray that it will open up some doors for me to minister to my Muslim friends.

D
davidt Jan 7, 2009

Josef,

IHOP is a movement that has largely embraced "another spirit" and promotes some really "out there" false prophecies -not to mention their endorsement of false revivals and their past affiliation with men such as Todd Bentley.

This whole topic has been covered before but I will take this opportunity to share some things that I believe have not been said from my own personal perspective. I know what IHOP is to a somewhat large extent as I have experienced it first hand for a while and have studied about it. I have a whole personal testimony to go along with it that I will not mention at this time.

You say they are of another spirit but somewhat of note I would like to say that this is a ministry that both Leonard Ravenhill and Art Katz have been a friend of since its beginnings even til their deaths to a somewhat substantial level. And so in this I mention possibly your own prophets. This is not even to mention the vast fruit that is being produced in the lives of saints.

The claim you make here as you know is a very severe things and is either slander or an exhortation that should be heeded and so I think you should take good care in making such a statement and in light of that I will respond.

I don't know exactly which far out prophecies you are talking about so I can neither receive nor respond to that. I am sure there is some error in some places which is often the case with Christians and ministries. I can say though that I have listened to the encountering Jesus series about the prophetic history of IHOP and am somewhat persuaded recently that it is sound and probably true. From what I understand Andrew Strom confirmed its accuracy though he thinks it is now off the rails.

If you are talking about Brownsville and Toronto I believe that is debatable and cant say much since my exposure to it is limited especially because I was not yet a Christian when it was occuring and did not even hear of it til a good time later. From what I understand good things have come out of it though like joy in the Lord and laughter, intimacy and soaking in the presence of the Lord, fire fervency repentance and revival, Gladstone and Brown ect. As for Lakeland I do not think IHOP ever said it was a great end time revival like others had and it was not substantially effectual in the community. I also do not have much to say about Lakeland as I did not receive anything from it.


I have been to a couple IHOP churches personally and in one I discerned a strong evil presence of demons of sexual perversion, and this was confirmed by the fact that many people in that church had sexual struggles. In another, there was a strange spirit, I think it was divination or something of the sort, and the spiritual presence of it was mystic and creepy. The place was not filled with the Holy Spirit.

If you have not been to KC you do not know that half of it. There are many places that take on the name and even the form but most places I am sure are very far from what it is like in KC. The IHOP leadership has made it a point that they are not starting a denomination and so all the hop's out there are running independently. So it is as if some random Church just started to pray and that is about the extent of the similarities with some mimicked forms. So any comparison that you make cannot be taken into account therefore you must see these as distinct.

When it comes to your spiritual discernment I cannot confirm it since it is largely subjective to you. Often people have personality errors that skew their supposed prophetic seeing whether it be legalism or lasciviousness or a number of things though I am not specifically saying that this is the case with you.

The fact that you state someone was in sexual sin would not necessarily mean that he congregation it compromised. Especially I mean if it is a visitor or light attendee or even a struggling brother or sister in weakness or maturity or a temporary snare.

I think it also hard to say that the Holy Spirit was not in the room as I can personally attest that often I would be in the presence of the Holy Spirit while the congregation around me did not discern it except possibly through me.

Once again you may have felt creepy because of your pre conditional prejudices that produced an emotional response. And even if this congregation were compromised it does not mean that KC is in fact IHOP emphasizes holiness emphatically.


Look, most of what they "SAY" might be good, but the issue is the SPIRIT behind what they are saying that is infecting people with demonic bondages. I would strongly warn anyone who is in any way absorbing the stuff that IHOP puts out to get away from it immediately and to seek Christ.

It says in first John that we can know if someone is of a false spirit if they confess false doctrine like Jesus did not come in the flesh. It can also be turned around in that if one speaks the truth then they are of a true spirit and I know that is not always the case. When it comes to IHOP they speak "much" truth and very much more so then the majority of the Church. Holiness against pornography is regularly spoken of authoritatively and importantly in light of human trafficking and having eyes for the Lord and an inner lamp of light, WOTM evangelism and hell fire preaching, apostolic foundations and the knowledge of the Holy, true eschatology,revival prayer and intimacy, and a whole mass of other things.

As for demonic bondages in contrast there is much fruit being born in raising up fasting, faith filled, fervent, forerunners. I attended an internship and it was like a boot camp. I never had any free time and at times it was hard for me to keep up. I had attended a pretty good Bible College previously and it paled in comparison and I think there are few places in the world that are emphasizing the sermon on the mount in that way at least in the west excluding the apostolic ministers in China and the like.


In conclusion I have many more things to say but at this specific time wont. I can say that I have often had my wrestling with this matter very much so but have grown to understand much and at this point only see in part and so cannot speak absolutely authoritatively but I can say as much as I can. I think though that this is something that we should not disdain but it is mighty thing that is occuring also in light of The Call. There is some error and some mixture but I believe a lot of good is happening irregularly and so should be rejoiced in and lifted up especially in light of the lukewarm Church that is so prevalent. I think it is a much bigger thing then you think. If these are believers and you are separating from them as an out of Churcher or IHOPer then in that you are walking in the dark for if we walk in the light we will have fellowship with one another and to shrink back because some weakness or whatnot makes you uncomfortable because you are to weak to eat meat or something then that should be corrected. In love, sincerity, and humility on such matters and my own weakness in grasping such things I write.

D
davidt Jan 7, 2009

Kathleen,

Great I am glad that you also know the truth about the true end time scenario and happenings!

...concerning their time of salvation, we must be very discerning as to when this time will be... they are at a place of self sufficiency and self righteousness that only a great breaking will deliver them from.

I am not saying that this time will be tomorrow or something. I think it could but I think more so maybe in the next couple generations or so since I think the Church is largely not prepared and other things. Also, I am not so sure that a physical humbling will bring them to Christ since this has already happened. I also read in revelation how tribulation makes man to curse God even more. This is not to totally discredit your statement only to make a point.


...it can ONLY be done the Lord's way. In light of all this, I must agree with Josef

Are you saying that IHOP or something is doing it mans way? I think that a prayer ministry and it's attitude especially if done the right way is quite the opposite.


...messages that Art Katz had spoken before their congretion rebuked them for their loud music and "modern" trappings. We were never meant to be a "with it church in a "with it" world.

I am sure that Art rebuked IHOP at times and I hope we are all rebuked at times that it would be oil to our heads. This however is not a total denunciation. I have heard some things where he talked about music but I have not heard any direct messages against IHOP though. Not to say that there aren't any but if there are I would like to hear them for instruction since I value this so if you have the resources please let me know.

Loud music? I am taken back in grievance over this statement just by that fact that a Christian can be so wrong. This is not meant to be offensive but only expressive. Is there not loud music in heaven and shouting from arch angels? Did not David say make a shout to the Lord and a loud noise? I know there is a time and a place for hush and such but not always. Maybe you mean that it is just a big fun time or something but I think that often the heart of it is to be fervent toward the Lord.

By Modern trappings you were not very specific so I have a hard time knowing what you are saying. I see some modern trappings but much of the modern trappings are gnats that are being swallowed and it is only to the legalistic weak brethren that strain at them. I think there is a validity to in some ways of being relevant to our culture as Paul was and more specifically to our generation not to say we should be worldly in a sinful sense but there is a difference and wearing clothes like Quakers and listening only to classical music or something is only a form and externally focused on a false romanticizing of our previous history.


I have discerned the sexual spirits surrounding the congregation and spirits of sorcery and witchcraft. I am not a child in this sort of knowledge and I do not intend to speak this to cause strife. In malice we are to be children, but in knowledge we are to be men. I cannot support this organization in all good conscience because of what I see spiritually, reguardless of the zeal displayed.

Have you been to KC and that for an extended period and observing without prejudice in taking a true look at what is happening with patience? If not then I would be hard pressed to acknowledge your statement about spiritual discernment.

I would also not really question your statement about maturity wholly and you may be right to an extent but to a full extent I think not. And I think if you cant receive it in good conscience then that may be for a number of reasons though I think it probable that those can be answered. I also have had many reasons but many of them were false and have been revealed for what they are after perseverance and love for the truth no matter how hard it was to get there and all the offense that raised in my heart. Remember that Jesus purposely offended the mind to reveal the heart when speaking of eating His flesh and drinking His blood and all left Him and He even tested His close disciples but they in desperation and faith in what they otherwise knew to be true stayed for they were bound to this great man who had all they had. Imagine if you were a Jew and someone told you God had been born of a virgin, or the God came in the form of a dove, or God came in the form of fire and wind, or that John the Baptist was Elijah to come. I also think many things can be traditionalism, denominationalism, legalism, and so forth.


even the word "revolution" echos of rebellion to me.

The revolution is in context to end times theology. It is in contrast to replacement theologians, post tribbing not caring or preparing, lethargy and unbelief in prophecy. What is wrong with that if it is rebellious it is in a righteous sense. This is an unmerited comment and it is sad that such a slanderous statement would be made without any reason or by the word of God and in love for the family of God. To revolutionize something is merely to change it the word has no inherent evil sense to it.

P
philologos Jan 7, 2009


Frankly, I'm confused. I don't know what people mean when they say we should "stand with Israel".

Hi there Taylor, as Robert W might say 'would you like to borrow my helmet'? ;-)

D
davidt Jan 7, 2009

Troyor,

Yes I have read your post and find it in some places to and sense to be false.

I understand that there is MUCH hardship in Gaza but that is the fault of Hamas and this war if the fault of Hamas and the fact that Israel has to accidently hurt civilians is Hamas' fault. War is never a clean thing.

I also understand that much of what the US has done it false and even that of Israel of course. However in this instance from my understanding Israel is in the right. Maybe if you understood the statement that Ahmadinejad has made about annihilating Israel or that of the late Arafat then you would understand. Or the many other things.

I do stand with Israel but I do not condone false wars. Nor do I state that Israel is good nor innocent. I do however stand for them to have human rights and for them to have their homeland.

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