'Am I Calvinist?', 'Am I Arminianist?'

Because C/A threads are heated again, I feel obligated to post something I believe it should be read by all, and meditate upon it.
I cannot find other word, except the word [b]privilege[/b] to hear what this brother is sharing. Zeal for the WHOLE Scriptures, and not just only to say for the other part, 'it's not what is written, it's something else, let me show you how this great theologian interprets it'.

I believe following man (thinking that he got it all right), and not examining EVERYTHING without fear (like Beraens), through the Scriptures, especially in these last days, could cost us very life.

Ryle put it well:

Oh, do not be satisfied with a religion built on man! Do not be content with saying, "I have hope, because my own minister has told me such and such things." Seek to be able to say, "I have hope, because I find it thus and thus written in the Word of God." If your peace is to be solid, you must go yourself to the fountain of all truth. If your comforts are to be lasting, you must visit the well of life yourself, and draw fresh water for your own soul. Ministers may depart from the faith. The visible Church may be broken up. But he who has the Word of God written in his heart, has a foundation beneath his feet which will never fail him. Honor your minister as a faithful ambassador of Christ. Esteem him very highly in love for his work's sake. But never forget that infallibility is not to be found in godly ministers, but in the Bible.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=24673&forum=35]- Source[/url]

The lecture that I am learning is this: Don't tie to a preacher or theologian to the point where you will be afraid to confess that this man has been or is it in error, if the Lord reveals to you the truth. Examining [u]everything[/u], doctrine or something else, through the Scriptures. This will cost you, it will cost you humiliation (you will need to confess that you have been wrong), or confrontation with someone that maybe you love so much, that it will be so hurting. But if you love more the Lord and [u]the truth[/u], and if you fear more God than man, you will pay the price, in a way that the Lord will show you how. Respect and honor them as a man of God (if they really are), but love the truth above all else.

Zan Poonen is touching this subject also:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23579&forum=34

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This is taken from:

[b]The Vanity of Life[/b] by Keith Daniel
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1854

Beginning at 7:34 min. (Please listen the audio while reading).

"...I lay up treasures in heaven and I can't wait to get there to see how much did get to heaven of what I believe God was doing. I'll actually be stunned if anyone is missing."

Now, some theologians won't like that statement.

'Am I Calvinist?', 'Am I Arminianist?', 'Wesleyan Arminianist?', well I said that in some meetings before that sent shock waves through your country already and I better not shock you tonight.

What I am, best you don't know. And it's good that you don't know. That means I am a good - when you say good, I mean you teach correctly, if nobody knows, whether you are a Calvinist or Arminianist.

Something wrong with you if they know that you are Calvinist, brother, and Arminianist, [b]and half of the Bible you can't preach.[/b] You lose your liberty once you brand yourself to some group you know, I refused to do it, you can kick me out of the pulpit, I think that some of you have already in America, so long as you don't take away my right to have every liberty to [u]preach on every single thing in this Book, without messing myself into some group.[/u] And with such conviction that just one thing, that a soul is all that matters, not doctrines, I am not here to defend a doctrine. God forbid! Some people stand up and all they have compassion for is the doctrine they are defending, there's nothing to care for the soul!

Brother, if you don't have one longing, throbbing, thrust from your soul and heart when you are in the pulpit, just for souls. And people are conscious of that only. And The Calvinist sit and wonder 'well, is he a Calvinist?' And the Arminianist, 'Is he Arminianist?'

That's all that matters. And you reach them all. No one gets truly offended you see. If they are not too sure, they all come.

You don't know what I am talking about some of you children, but you will know. Oh, what the doctrines have split and torn a church apart, that they can't even allow you in their pulpit, if you say one word wrong concerning their doctrine. Oh, God forbid.

Anyway I bless dear Lord for all those Calvinists who are good Arminianists, and all those Arminianists who embrace a lot of what Calvin taught. Anyway, if I don't stop now you will be really confused….

I love to see the reactions of Doctors of Theology, you know, they allowed me to speak once in a University, our largest, ooh, I better not tell you where it was. Anyway, they were mostly Professors of Theology, and Doctors of Theology, and well , by the time when I finished that sermon, you should seen that meeting, you wouldn't believe it what I had to face at the door. But I thank the dear Lord, with all my heart, the dean of the whole faculty, came, and he put his arms around me and sobbed, and he said,

"When I was young, I preached like you, and all this has robbed me of everything, and I only found out tonight when I heard you."

The whole dean, professor, I won't tell you his name. I thank the dear Lord, you don't tremble with whom you preached brother, you just preach what you are, wherever you preach, there in University or anywhere.

Souls have one need, compassion, and if you give to them, no matter who they are, they break. God's compassion, not yours. That's what you got to prepare for.

you teach correctly, if nobody knows, whether you are a Calvinist or Arminianist.

Something wrong with you if they know that you are Calvinist, brother, and Arminianist, and half of the Bible you can't preach. You lose your liberty once you brand yourself to some group you know, I refused to do it, you can kick me out of the pulpit, I think that some of you have already in America, so long as you don't take away my right to have every liberty to preach on every single thing in this Book, without messing myself into some group.

And The Calvinist sit and wonder 'well, is he a Calvinist?' And the Arminianist, 'Is he Arminianist?'That's all that matters. And you reach them all. No one gets truly offended you see. If they are not too sure, they all come.

Yes. Thank you for this my brother.

The reason for the doctrines of grace is a desire to HARMONIZE ALL Scriptures.

The Scriptures that are used as weapons against GOD's electing grace are always verses about HIS universal love for all men. The thing is that GOD's universal love for all men does not contradict his special electing grace for all kinds of men.

Calvinism harmonizes the Scriptures in their entirety.

int3grity wrote:

Calvinism harmonizes the Scriptures in their entirety.

No, the Lord and His word harmonizes the scriptures. No man made theology does this, of ANY kind.

Yes, I see this all the time in the Yahoo Christian chat rooms and it saddens me to see brothers and sisters fighting in front of unbelievers.

We can argue all day and even be right all day but if we don't have love we are still wrong. The apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 had this to say about the matter: If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing.

Romans 14:1 says Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters and James 4:11 says Speak not one against another, brethren.

Since Christians are brethren, they should not defile nor defame one another. It is required of us that we be tender of the good name of our brethren; where we cannot speak well, we had better say nothing than speak evil. What is this but to raise the hatred and encourage the persecutions of the world, against those who are engaged in the same interests with ourselves, and therefore with whom we ourselves must stand or fall? (Matthew Henry)

To speak evil of one another is what the men of the world do, and from them it is expected; but for the saints to speak evil one of another, to sit and speak against a brother, and slander an own Fathers's son, is barbarous and unnatural. (John Gill)

His love is perfected by our loving each other. It is incomplete unless His love for us is supplemented by brotherly love. This love in us is the proof that God is in us.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirits that we are children of God.

Hereby we know that God dwells in us by the Spirit given us. We know we have the Spirit by His fruits. The first and greatest of these is love.

It is God's will to produce the fruit of the Spirit in us. If anyone has these, we have evidence of the witnessing of the Spirit with his spirit. If not, there no such evidence.

The way to ascertain whether we have this witnessing of the Spirit, is by an honest and prayerful inquiry whether these fruits of the Spirit actually exist in our lives.

If they do, the evidence is clear. If not, all vain confidence of good estate; all visions, and raptures, and fancied revelations, will be mere delusions.

This position is the one where I believe God wants us to camp on. Trying to prove one theological stripe or another has been tried and found wanting. Whitefield expressed a great respect for Wesley, and Wesley responded in kind, when he preached at Whitefield's funeral. Paul Washer speaks approvingly of Leonard Ravenhill. If Ravenhill were alive today, I am convinced he would do the same, even as he wrote in glowing terms of Jonathan Edwards and David Brainerd. Martyn Lloyd Jones and G. Campbell Morgan, who held differing views on this subject, worked closely together, conducting meetings together and sharing a common bond in the Spirit. If they did, can't all of us as well ?

Consider this please, as well. When you read the gospel invitations, given by Paul or Peter, throughout the book of Acts, can you determine by the message they delivered to unbelievers, what they held to, in their private closets, as to the secret things of God ? No we cannot.

When you examine the huge bulk of Paul's teachings, did he devote pages to promoting Calvinism or Arminianism ? Rather his burning message was, "Christ crucified".

Proof texts aside, if we cannot find instances of Paul or Peter persuading others that in order to be a Christian, or a committed follower of Christ, you must go beyond 'repent and believe the gospel', but must also adopt this theological persuasion, or that one, should we not also, all of us, throw down our arms and embrace, 'All that bear fruit that they are one of His' ? Didn't Paul call the Christians to whom his letters were addressed to, 'Saints'
, 'Dear brothers and sisters' etc, despite their failings ?

Since the New Testament Christians lived hundreds of years before John Calvin or Jacob Arminius appeared on the scene, if we are to be Bereans (lovers of the Book), we should follow the example they set for us and stick to what they focused on. Paul reflected the heart of God when he remarked with sadness that some Christians were saying," I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas"

Then he went on to ask that important question, "Is Christ divided?"

Love in Jesus,
John

And with such conviction that just one thing, that a soul is all that matters, not doctrines, I am not here to defend a doctrine. God forbid! Some people stand up and all they have compassion for is the doctrine they are defending, there's nothing to care for the soul!

What I am, best you don't know. And it's good that you don't know. That means I am a good - when you say good, I mean you teach correctly, if nobody knows, whether you are a Calvinist or Arminianist.

Brother, thanks for this - It really gets to the core of what many of us are trying to relay here, what SI is made up of if one would just take notice of the variety of speakers\\preachers presented here - Both sides - Neither sides, such as Keith Daniel. And it was great to hear this excerpt you presented, I had something long remembered from one of the first messages I ever heard from him, where he made some passing reference to all this ... It was in his inimitable personality that he had mentioned preaching somewhere and if I am recalling correctly, it was just the looks on some of the faces that seemed to say "[i]They don't know if I am a Calvinist or an Arminianist![/i]".

Brother, if you don't have one longing, throbbing, thrust from your soul and heart when you are in the pulpit, just for souls. And people are conscious of that only. And The Calvinist sit and wonder 'well, is he a Calvinist?' And the Arminianist, 'Is he Arminianist?'

This is more important than we know. I think it often is precisely the problem - That things are looked at through these preconceived colored glasses, where does he fit? Which one is he?

This matter is largely overwrought, both 'sides' of it. There is gross exaggeration and misrepresentation often from both sides. The positions are extended and very often pragmatised, (The ends justifying the means) and that is most diabolical I believe. Rather than truly trying to understand what is being said there is often the projecting ... In other words, [i]'If you believe this and that then naturally it leads to ______[/i]' - Not necessarily!

There is such a camp mentality, a stereo[u]type[/u] attached to all of this that to [i]speak[/i] to one side of it, one part of it, one piece of it therefore creates the whole enchilada, this peculiar [u]must[/u] - 'You must have it all' eat the whole thing, digest it. Says who?

So a challenge comes and both sides are equally guilty. Entrenched in these positions, the Armininist sees his "Calvinistic' Brethren as doomed, damned and dangerous and by the same logic, the opposite - Just rearrange the labels. I almost forgot, [i]heretics[/i]!

It does seem to drive some exceedingly mad that they could quite possibly love the Puritans and the like along with Wesley and Finney and other oddities that I am blessedly ignorant of ... Chambers, Poonen - Which are they or might they fall into? Don't tell me!

;-)

It's not complete ignorance, it's purposeful.

O.k, uhmmm, I'm one of those less than intelligent people that may or may not get to heaven! With my limited knowledge I'm wondering something. Are you saying (just so I don't jump off a tall building with worry) it's o.k. to think one way or the other in regards to theology? As long as you believe what the Bible says and learn from its words, and understand that its teaching both sides??? Also, why does it have to teach one the other or both? All this has done has confused me. That's what I get for reading educated folks posts.

Borrowed this from [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=26704&forum=35]"Calvinism Is Not The Issue!" - Paul Washer[/url]

Dear brother, you are not less intelligent but more so. It is a sign of spiritual maturity in my estimation - I would to God that there was more purposeful ignorance of these things [i]as constructs[/i]. Because they are not important? Goodness no. It's the overriding factors, the overt things that I cannot reconcile. The hardheaded and I must put it that way, do not recognize that their passion is venom, their defending is abusive, cold, hard, rigid, inflexible ...

Great sweeping generalities. In my time here, spanning some five odd years now and in reading a vast amount, tooling about the internet - There is more of this than than it's opposite and that opposite is really something that boils down to, "Yes, but have you considered ____?" I purposefully have stayed away from particulars of these matters to hone in on the glaring things.

My observation so far in a variety of things, this matter, other matters, even those that pertain outside the Christian confines is that man (humanity) is largely stubborn and proud. The rarity of hearing ... "You know, you got something there - I never really thought about that ... After some [i]consideration[/i], I have changed my mind." Is quite astonishing. What is more true is a certain cynicism and bitterness of holding fort lest there be some chink in the armor. But moreover it's really that particular pragmatism that spells a doom when it is revealed. I have read some tremendous things, where one can go for pages and pages and all of a sudden here comes that instance where something is misrepresented, exaggerated, stretched beyond credulity and that which was previous is now tainted, suspicious and many times just completely ruined. This matter, this debate is often precisely that.

One of the greatest examples, a non-Christian one at that, was a piece I stumbled upon about the coach from the New York football Giants who went on to win the Superbowl last year. And what was it that ultimately did the trick? The coach changed his mind! Some wise friend or colleague of his had approached him in the off season about his style of coaching, which apparently had been hard and cruel, he was tough but his players apparently didn't really respect him. I don't recall all the details but in essence he did a 180 and the players were at first skeptical and bemused, but they eventually rallied to his new found approach. The first day of practice he had everybody show up on the field and instead of going through drills ... He took them out bowling! The players were just thrown for a loop ...

This all comes full circle down to my signature at bottom, purposefully placed there at the recent height of all this commotion. I would to God challenge you who are cemented in these things to again reconsider - It's not the 'baby and the bathwater', it's not, 'not important' - It is the grinding and gnashing of teeth, the venom and cynicism, the misrepresentations and pragmatism, lets face it, ultimately to misrepresent is just flat out lying.

Anyway I bless dear Lord for all those Calvinists who are good Arminianists, and all those Arminianists who embrace a lot of what Calvin taught. Anyway, if I don't stop now you will be really confused….

I disagree with dear brother Keith here. It's not confusion, it's symmetry. For the life of me, take Zac Poonens advice and approach the scriptures [i]everyday[/i] as if it was the first time you had ever read them. Away with your 'positions' and constructs, your theological underpinnings if they produce only contentious strife and angst ridden verbosities. They are worthless and leave your hearers more akin to becoming Pharisees than followers. Has anyone taken notice of just how much these arguments produce this same likeness of character? That of the Scribes and Pharisees? Don't say to yourself that it is not so if ...

[i]ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.[/i]

I understand well the importance of understanding doctrine, and how it teaches us to live. It is a lot like the user manual one gets when buying a piece of equipment. On the other hand, too many times I get the feeling that these discussions of Calvinism vs Armenianism is little more then a 'Christian' version of what the men were doing as recorded n Acts 17:21: For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing."

My opinion but I am a woman and women usually are not given to the theoretical as much as males - we go for the practical, generally speaking, although we do want to know the underlying principles so we know how it works, why it works or won't work.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

I understand well the importance of understanding doctrine, and how it teaches us to live. It is a lot like the user manual one gets when buying a piece of equipment. On the other hand, too many times I get the feeling that these discussions of Calvinism vs Armenianism is little more then a 'Christian' version of what the men were doing as recorded n Acts 17:21: For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing."

What a perfect verse ... ouch.

My opinion but I am a woman and women usually are not given to the theoretical as much as males - we go for the practical, generally speaking, although we do want to know the underlying principles so we know how it works, why it works or won't work.

"theoretical' or is it [i]theatrical[/i]?

;-)

Think Robert made a great, similar observation in this regard - [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=26785&forum=34]John Wesley's Letters[/url]

"theoretical' or is it theatrical?

Mike, take your pick and have fun deciding! :-)

Blessings,
ginnyrose