Jesus is the heart of the subject.

I have read through the entire debate here, and my spirit has grown so sad. Though my pride would have me defend men whose revelation has inspired spiritual growth in my own life, I put that defense aside to say, where is Jesus in this picture? Are we all willing to speak on behalf of Jesus for the judgment of others? Is this what fellowship has come down to, arguing over mere humans rather than edifying Jesus? If we were all to come to the table today, is this what our fellowship would amount to? How disappointing to all these men we would be, not to mention to our creator who far exceeds us in justice? What is gained if we make our case and find the right argument to slander and deface men whose hearts can only be judged by the creator? I don't remember who said this, but I'll paraphrase: "These men (Mike Bickle..) have divided us". No, our pride is what divides us. I apologize if my words inspire some offense in any of you. I am no more holy and certainly no more intelligent than anyone in this forum. I understand that debate is at the heart of a "forum", but it only further divides the body of Christ. Why do we put so much energy into tearing things down instead of unifying our efforts to building things up that edify our God, our King. Reading through this debate, how would you feel if you knew that the argument has brought joy and a feeling of victory to the enemy? He has won another battle by turning God's people against one another. If Christ is love, and we are to be imitators of Christ, how do you and I measure up?Love(d/r),Melissa and Ray

Thank you for your comments, and welcome to SI.I wasn't involved in the business about Bickle and Cain and such, don't know enough about them to say anything.Nonetheless, I have some more general comments in response to yours, I hope these are God's words and His wisdom instead of mine.Is this what fellowship has come down to, arguing over mere humans rather than edifying Jesus?Have you looked through the other current discussions and posts? Particularly Brother Lars' posts of various articles, sermons, etc; as well as the posts in the Intercession/Current Events section. Discussions on specific teachers have been more frequent as of late, but they're hardly the entirety of the fellowship here. Of course, there's several thousand sermons and articles to be had, as well.If we were all to come to the table today, is this what our fellowship would amount to? How disappointing to all these men we would be, not to mention to our creator who far exceeds us in justice?I can't say for sure what our fellowship would be if we were in the same room, but I doubt we'd spend a great deal of time discussing the various human teachers we agree or disagree with, rather spend much time worshiping God, studying the Bible, praying, etc... it wouldn't be perfect, obviously, and in that sense could be construed as disappointing to God, but personally I think ours would be a fellowship marked by an intense passionate love for God far exceeding any congregation I've physically been in.What is gained if we make our case and find the right argument to slander and deface men whose hearts can only be judged by the creator?I'm not concerned with slandering or defacing anyone, nor even strictly concerned with the men themselves or judging them, I'm concerned with "do these men teach in accordance with the Word of God?" (I'm also concerned if they live in such accordance, but that's not the issue at hand). Further, is the Gospel they preach the Biblical Gospel, or is it another Gospel?Galatians 16 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! I don't remember who said this, but I'll paraphrase: "These men (Mike Bickle..) have divided us". No, our pride is what divides us.Pride can be quite divisive, yes, and perhaps it is at work here (I wasn't paying rapt attention to the discussion). However, false doctrine and scandalous living can also be divisive, as we are commanded to be separate from immoral professing Christians1 Corinthians 59 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."And from close association with unbelievers or anyone walking in darkness:2 Corinthians 614 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers, for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God. As God hath said: "I will dwell in them and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."17 Therefore, "Come out from among them, and be ye separate," saith the Lord. "And touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you,18 and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons and daughters," saith the Lord Almighty.I apologize if my words inspire some offense in any of you.Offense? No, nothing of that sort. I see why you've reacted in this way, but I think you're operating on a deficient knowledge of this fellowship, and possibly a deficient knowledge of what the Bible commands regarding "judging" teachers and prophets and what Biblical unity is in terms of rejecting compromise.I understand that debate is at the heart of a "forum", but it only further divides the body of Christ.Debate can be divisive, but it can also be extremely helpful towards understanding other views, and bringing out all the support for each side so all involved can be better informed. If everyone conducts themselves in a manner obedient to Christ and in "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control" (Galatians 5:22-23), I actually don't think debate will cause further division, it will simply show where everyone is (they might be quite divided on certain issues, but the debate didn't cause that), and possibly move them nearer together as they are confronted with the Scriptural basis for the other views.Personally I'd be quite happy to keep my mouth shut and let everyone deal with God without my interference, but obedience to Him demands both that I evangelize and "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints" (Jude 3).Why do we put so much energy into tearing things down instead of unifying our efforts to building things up that edify our God, our King.I'm not interested in tearing anything down, other than deception and the work of the enemy and such, but I am interested in shedding the light of God's truth on everything so that it can be known whether it is true or false, good or evil, etc. Lies will always be harmful, and we know where they all come from. I should hope that discussion of God's Word is always edifying to believers insofar as God's actual words are implanted deeper in the heart and mind. As for "edify[ing] God," I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that, but I would think our having a clearer view of the truth and His Word would be pleasing to Him.Reading through this debate, how would you feel if you knew that the argument has brought joy and a feeling of victory to the enemy? He has won another battle by turning God's people against one another.I'm not "against" any of God's people, and will gladly labor with them and sacrifice my life for them and even give my life for them, even if I don't agree with them on everything (even some fairly significant things), but if they are preaching another Gospel than the one I believe, I cannot in good conscience support them and indeed must seek to correct them from the error of their ways (or, if I am the one in the wrong, come to understand the truth). I still love them and am gladly willing to do whatever it is God would have me do for them, but Biblical unity only includes so much (would you go out evangelizing with a Mormon and a Jehovah's Witness?)If Christ is love, and we are to be imitators of Christ, how do you and I measure up?Take care not to take an unbiblical definition of love, equate God to it, and thus make an idol with your mind. God is love, and that kind of love hates sin, and all who do iniquity (Psalm 5:5), and all lies, and false gospels. He loves truth and holiness too much to do otherwise.As for how I measure up? I probably don't hate sin or untruth enough, I'm far too ready to let sinners and false teachers go on their way without my interference, but I am willing to do whatever it is God wills that I do for them (though I imagine the thickness of my skull prevents me from recognizing some of what He wants of me).Grace and peace to you, in our Lord Jesus Christ,-Keith

Even Jesus was not agreeing with scribes and pharasees although he went to the temple to learn when he was under ageIf there is no tearing down there is no putting up.I will break this temple and build it up in three days.what was it about?He died and that is how come christian are all over the world now.There is the need to deliberate on issues and come to a common understanding rather than every towing his or her line and claiming that the spirit of God spoke to him or herEven Jesus was not agreeing with scribes and pharasees although he went to the temple to learn when he was under age. so what are talking about.

bless u all for your contribution

I have read through the entire debate here, and my spirit has grown so sad. Though my pride would have me defend men whose revelation has inspired spiritual growth in my own life, I put that defense aside to say, where is Jesus in this picture? Are we all willing to speak on behalf of Jesus for the judgment of others? Is this what fellowship has come down to, arguing over mere humans rather than edifying Jesus? This hit me rather hard...because it is so true.There is just something about message boards that is condusive to debate. I have often grieved over the fact, while at the same time contributing to that argumentative spirit that prevails on a lot of message boards - particularly Christian ones.Melissa and Ray are right on this charge. There is something wrong when Christians come together and spend more time trying to set each other straight than seeking to edify one another. On many Christian message boards, someone can simply make an innocuous statement of opinion and it opens up a wave of hostility that goes on for weeks as brothers and sisters nit-pick a harmless statement to death over a minor issue of theology.I am new here, and truly don't want to be a part of contributing to such a spirit in this fellowship. I have also received several private e-mails already that lead me to believe things are rather peaceful and unto edification here, and that thrills me.Having said that, I was convicted to give my "two cents" about Ravenhill because I knew him in a "second hand" kind of way, via my mentor and best friend. Thus, I felt obligated to offer a reasonable explanation to the concerns many were expressing.In my final post, I tried to address the kinds of things in the body that led to discussions like the one in question. I hope that it ministered to your heart in some way, and that it wasn't just more arguing.Your point is understood. Thanks for taking the time to offer it and I, for one, will do my best to keep it in mind here at all times.Blessings!!Jason

Brother Jason you are reading amiss the forums here and not diserning the spirit perhaps just because you have not spent the time on the site reading through the posts and getting to know the wonderful saints that God has lead here.I was actually trying to communicate that I did not see a spirit of argumentation in the forums at sermonindex, and that I was quite refreshed by that.My wording was a bit convoluted...sorry that I gave the wrong impression. I think this whole site is fantastic!!!!Blessings,Jason

Been out of the loop here for a bit so pardon my misunderstanding but...I have also received several private e-mails already that lead me to believe things are rather peaceful and unto edification here, and that thrills me.This seems to imply that Jason does actually grasp the tenure of what is going on here...maybe I don't get it :-? And you are right Jason this is the thrust around here, which I believe Greg laid out further on in his reply. It is most definitely unto edification that we all are after here, not in a sentimental, plastic kind of way though. In attempting to get at the truth of these matters, at least in as much as it is possible with these fallible minds, it does get 'ugly' or maybe uncomfortable at times and on occasion we get some dogmatic, unbending types that come storming through, agendas in tow. But for the most part it is an incredible gathering of believers, and even after all this time it still thrills me as well.At the sake of beating a dead horse (curious colloquial, that one) something to keep in mind is the nature of this type of communication...we are not all Rhodes scholars, many of us barely got through High School English and compositional styles vary widely. In other words, we often don't know what we are talking about, so patience is a must :-) (Will insert the pastoral cliché here, that of course I am pointing the finger at myself) ;-) Edit: The other thing is, some of us are very long winded and in the amount of time it takes to get all these profound thoughts out another reply will come in...(case in point) :-)