Logic
Jan 8, 2009
[b]Gen 3:16[b]multiply
In order for God to [b]multiply
Is that set degree of sorrow, which will be multiplied, from previous conceptions?
[b]Gen 3:16[b]multiply
In order for God to [b]multiply
Is that set degree of sorrow, which will be multiplied, from previous conceptions?
Logic,
You are emphasizing on the word [color=CC3366]multiply[/color]
In your heart of hearts it's conception that you are questiong, but the Spirit of the Lord in this verse would have you to look at ("and he shall rule over you").
My translations says, Gen 3:16 [color=0033FF]Then he said to the woman, "You will bear children with intense pain and suffering. And though your desire will be for your husband, * he will be your master".[/color]
No, in my "heart of hearts" it's
bluinos wrote:
Logic,You are emphasizing on the word [color=CC3366]multiply[/color]
In your heart of hearts it's conception that you are questiong, but the Spirit of the Lord in this verse would have you to look at ("and he shall rule over you").
My translations says, Gen 3:16 [color=0033FF]Then he said to the woman, "You will bear children with intense pain and suffering. And though your desire will be for your husband, * he will be your master".[/color]
Re-read the question, if you have an oppinion, please give one.
Interesting question.
Clarke states: [i]"I will greatly multiply, or multiplying I will multiply; i.e., I will multiply thy sorrows, and multiply those sorrows by other sorrows, and this during conception and pregnancy, and particularly so in parturition or child-bearing."
He seems to imply that it could mean "I will give you great sorrow" in conception.
However, I see your point, it does seem that to multiply something you would have to have a starting value, since zero multiplied by anything is zero.
I looked at the Hebrew word, and found this lexicon entry:
[i]"be or become great, be or become many, be or become much, be or become numerous"
It seems like perhaps our common use of the word multiply (arithmetically), is not always the same sense behind the Biblical use of the word "multiply"?
Hi Logic...
[/b]KJV[/b]
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
[b]NIV[/b]
"To the woman he said,
'I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.'"
[b]NASB[/b]
To the woman He said,
"I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you."
:-(
I am asking because there could have been an increase from previous conceptions.
That would mean Adam & Eve had childeren before they ate from that Tree.
you asked for opinion.
My answer would be that it primarily is emphasis on future child bearing and those children would bring sorrow or challenges that would not have been there before the fall. Cain is a good example. I would assume Eve felt sorrow over Gods rejection of Cains offering etc.
Children before the fall? maybe, but I doudt it.
Again just opinion on what I see as something to not be to dogmatic about. I am not saying you are suggesting we be dogmatic about it. God bless!
Hi Logic...
That is precisely my point: We don't KNOW whether or not Adam and Eve had children before they ate from the Tree...or even before Cain and Abel. It is pure conjecture to say yes...or no. The Scriptures seem to be quite silent on the matter. Even if you think that they aren't silent, then you must admit that it is highly speculative in the very least.
The Scripture passage that you quoted could mean that the process for giving birth might have multiplied in regard to pain that a woman would experience...even though no children had ever been born from a womb yet. Then again, it is possible that Adam and Eve could have given birth to other children. Intellectually, I lean toward the former...simply because there is no record of children being born BEFORE the curse.
In my opinion, it just isn't very important either way. We know that God literally made Adam and Eve (just as the Scriptures explain). We know that they gave birth to at least Cain, Abel and Seth...and possibly many more (either before or later). We can certainly entertain these questions, but we should be pretty quick to recognize that many such questions are just conjecture at best.
Back to the question: I don't think the Bible gives a clear answer to your question.
:-)
[b][color=0000CC][font=Verdana]I looked at the Hebrew word, and found this lexicon entry: "be or become great, be or become many, be or become much, be or become numerous" It seems like perhaps our common use of the word multiply (arithmetically), is not always the same sense behind the Biblical use of the word "multiply"?[/font][/color][/b]
This satisfies me on the question.
As to there being children before the fall, personally I feel if it was necessary for us to know God would have written it down for us. I do not care to speculate but believe it is possible but that fact is not necessary for our salvation.
For a time I had an interest in reading Bible commentaries written by a man named Rice. The one on Genesis was very interesting, possibly enlightening, even but, after consulting with my husband I put the books away and am reading only God's word. On points that are open to speculation, he felt the man, however motivated he may have been, injected too much questionable theories. While I feel competent to pick the meat from the bones my husband feels it safer to not take a chance on choking on a sliver of bone I might have missed.
I do not worry myself with points I do not understand. If/when it is necessary for me to know or understand I trust the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth. In the meantime, time I may have spent questioning how many children Adam and Eve had and when they were birthed can be better spent reading the Gospels, the Epistles and most of all The Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Kind regards,
white stone
Thanx y'all :-)
Just a thought...pure speculation...could it be that God had intended from the beginning that child-birth would come with some measure of sorrow, and that God is now saying He will multiply the measure of that sorrow? Not that they had already had children, but simply that child-bearing was always intended to be laborious or sorrowful to some degree and that now the extent of the woman's experience would be multiplied.
That would be the only other opption.graceamazed wrote:
Just a thought...pure speculation...could it be that God had intended from the beginning that child-birth would come with some measure of sorrow, and that God is now saying He will multiply the measure of that sorrow? Not that they had already had children,
I saw on 20/20 aboutbut simply that child-bearing was always intended to be laborious or sorrowful to some degree and that now the extent of the woman's experience would be multiplied.
It is worth noting that God is addressing the woman. I think it is likely that He meant the opportunity to conceive rather than actually conception as that required Adam to play a part. We recognise that a woman is fertile for a period during each monthly cycle. But imagine that before the fall she could only conceive once every 100 years. That would be a 1,200 times increase. Now there was no thought of death before the fall (or at least very little) so whether it took 1,000 or a million years to 'replenish the earth' would not have made much difference to God's purposes. But when the life expectancy of the human race had reduced to 35 years with all the ravages of sin, conceiving only once per hundred years would give you a maximum of one cycle per couple and one offspring per couple at best. The earth's population would be on an exponential decline. A monthly cycle has its drawbacks, but in terms of maintaining the human race it was a sensible thing to do.
Logic wrote:
I am asking because there could have been an increase from previous conceptions.That would mean Adam & Eve had childeren before they ate from that Tree.
I'm a man, so I'm probably not best placed to comment on the sorrow, but there seems to be more for the OB/GYN doctor to do for women than for men. Perhaps before the fall there were less problems. And then we have the whole idea of PMT/PMS if the hormone cycle was stable for 99years and 11 month, there would be less sorrow.
Finally, on the 'in sorrow you shall bring forth children', I have often wondered if animals have less pain in giving birth. If there are any veterinarians reading this thread it would be interesting to hear their comments. That at least would confirm the increase in sorrow in the area of birth. BTW the word that the KJV translates sorrow, probably really means pain or painful toil.
BTW again, the other way of translating that word sorrow is 'an earthen vessel'. I still trying to work out what connection it might have to this verse [color=009900]2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in [b]earthen vessels
Kind regards
Mike
I think what God means when he says he will "multiply your sorrow" he is talking about labor pains that occur during the birthing process.
Have you ever watched an animal give birth? No? If you ever have a chance watch a dog, a cat, a cow, or a sow give birth. What kind of pain do they have? Very little, by all appearances. Their birthing process is just a little more time consuming then having a bowel movement (excuse me here, but I am serious - not trying to be funny or vulgar).
When you compare the birthing process of mammals with humans (who some say are mammals as well) there is a distinct difference. Man was cursed in this way, other life forms were not.
My understanding on this issue...
ginnyrose
I would like to expand a bit more on the birthing process of a human vs. animals.
When God created man, he called this segment of his creation "very good". And after man sinned a curse laid upon the woman was "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception..."
Human mothers are the most helpless of all during the birthing process, requiring the help of others to assist this process. Not so with animals (unless there is a difficult birth, but this is not the norm). For example, most cows will try to isolate themselves from the herd when fixing to deliver a calf. Hens, if running loose on the place, will try to hide their eggs which is why chicken growers will provide boxes for the hens to lay their eggs in.
The human infant is the most helpless of all babies born with the exception perhaps of a joey (baby kangaroo) but am not sure of it - it just moves its location of nutrition to its mother's pouch.
The human mother is weak for a while after birthing a child and will also bleed for 4-8 weeks following, unlike animals. In the OT a new mother was considered unclean depending on the gender of the child. This meant isolation, restriction of movement, limited work. While this sounds very confining and restrictive, in essence this provided for the woman - by law - a chance to recuperate from birthing! Actually, I believe if these laws were observed today by human mothers they would have fewer 'female' problems later on in life. When God gave these laws to the Israelites it was for their own good and protection, although those results may not be apparent immediately.
The birthing process, be it man or beast, is an awesome event to witness. I well remember the first time I saw a sow (hog) give birth, I was perhaps 9 or 10, am not sure. But I was filled with awe, amazement and my first thoughts were that "God made it to function this way". This sense has never left me.
"Multiply thy conception..." Until this time a woman's ability to conceive was not as frequent as after the fall. As it is now most females can conceive every month. Before man sinned, man was to live forever and so their need to reproduce often was not essential to populate the earth. After the fall, death entered in meaning people will come and go and this supply needs to be replenished, hence a need to "multiply thy conception". What can make this very unhandy is how frequent a woman can conceive and give birth, hence the controversy concerning the use of contraceptives to postpone conception.
In essence, all are 'fearfully and wonderfully made'. It is fun to study up on the reproduction process of animals, birds, insects et al. God has his fingerprints all over the place. If one just casually studies this process one can see how man is the crowning achievement of God's creation. [Edit - REMOVED]
This is the perspective of a mother who has birthed five times.. :-)
ginnyrose
Ginnyrose
Thanks, your insights were very useful and helpful.
Mike
how this scripture ,as with most others , causes me to think is , what does this mean for me and my walk with the Lord Jesus . that which is natural points to the spiritual, it always does. So , spiritually we are Christs wife, He is our husband.. we as Christians will exsperience the travail of our soul at the conception . or of our conception. what is this conception that Zion has , that causes Her to Travail ?. I think of the scripture that says " except zion travails, she shall not give birth." Many times and many many hours i have spent in prayer in anguish of soul for the lost and dying loved ones, and in this i have known the greatest baptism in fire and love in the Holy Ghost that has transformed me into Christ rule and restoration in my life . restoration from my backward bent ways of thinking . that has kept me from lifting Jesus up so that He can save those that i love and have contact with . look at this scripture and contemplate that your soul is the woman here, and also that your born again new creation Spirit, which truely is of and is Christs' Spirit, is the Husband . before any Christian can minister the ministration of the Holy Spirit to another person you must have what happens in the natural to take place in the spiritual arena . first you have to see you are barren and empty {childless } then you have to become open and naked, then there is conception , then there is a gestation period where the conception is growing inside you , then there has to be Travail , and this i believe is the sorrow of soul and anguish and pain comes into play in child birthing for women. that which is natural alwalys points to the spiritual.. most Christians do not want to go through with it all the way, they in no way want the travail and anguish of soul after conception and so abortion is rampant and God knowing hearts before hand does not show most of us the depths of His self that He would if we were really wanting to go through all the way in prayer in this . hope this helps stir us in the Life of the Spirit and our Husbands restoration and rule .
That may be true, but this is what conception means to me.
You are asking for a great deal of trouble and it will come as surely as the sun rises. Having departed one minor, corrupt kingdom for the grand and glorious one, the previous dictator is not appeased easily and forfeits unwillingly. But if you can but recognize it when it is at hand do take note that you are now in the fight! And what a noble fight it is! It is worth every effort and all the strength you can muster at times but this is not a strength that will hold. It is why you must learn to relinquish it to the Lords strength, it becomes a merging that is difficult to describe without branching off into a lot of heresy. The Lord is your strength, enough said.
But do take note of all the seemingly little things that your mind will want to send off as ‘coincidence’ without letting that become an experience to rest on. Perhaps an illustration.
Early on in this walk the Lord saw fit to begin awakening me at or near 4:AM. The first couple of times it was that sense of ‘This is peculiar’ and hardly realized what was happening. Well recall when it began to dawn on me one of those morning, reading and praying and I thought to myself, ‘Why this is beyond peculiar, Lord, what or why is this happening?”. By impression, the answer “You will see, …eventually”
Look for the evidence in your life and allow yourself the pleasure of bringing the questions to the surface. It’s an amazing revelation at times. In fact it still is to me! What I do mean to attend to is taking notice of what is stirring within you that defies proper explanation. Why this desire to really know God? Why is it that now things that used to bring pleasure are becoming a disinterest or even a conviction? Why do you feel a need to pray? Or even the evidences, proofs if you will. Changes. Glorious changes. A true inner longing that wants to do Gods will, longs for God’s will despite what these bundles of contradictions that we are might think in any given moment. You just begin to know the sense of …Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Just as well, some force feeding is necessary, the old man is weak and strangely enough dies hard. Discipline and disciple are of the same derivative, and you are a disciple if you are following the Lord and you will follow and endure and go on and be misunderstood and whole host of innumerable things will take place, But it is incredible and rapturing and full of wonder and times of excitement, real happiness that is joy, peace that the world knows not and yes, security, comfort in affliction, understanding through suffering even if only slightly grasped by the mind, but grasped nonetheless.
I would say that this word, ‘assurance’ could be put aside as non issue, it’s not needed. What is needed is new life from new birth and then growing in the knowledge of the Lord, a continuum, a process, it is always in motion even as we stumble and trip over ourselves along the way.
But above all, pray! Pray always, learn this tremendous gift, practice it constantly, read about it, study it until it becomes part and parcel of your makeup. Reading the scriptures and drinking in deeply from them, it would seem to go without saying yet, again, force feeding often a necessity.
Sin and repentance…first requirements of repudiating and understanding, if this was overlooked, if this sting and stench of death is not first addressed than all that I have mentioned here means absolutely nothing to anyone. It goes at the beginning, there is not conception possible without the souls confession, to the Lord and to the Lord alone. To accept, receive, believe on the Lord Jesus two words even if they are descriptive, they have fallen prey to the same corruption as this whole matter at hand. But to believe on the Lord is so full of demands, with promises, is far beyond the reaches of the mind, it is believing in and with the souls. It is to have the God all creation cohabiting within you. Think of it! Astounding fact! That is the Holy Spirit taking up residence within the heart by the incredible process of birth…
It is rather strange to be spelling all this out here, but only in as much as for those who may be peering in on this from a far, a great deal merely preaching to the choir. But what of us? Have we lost some of the wonder and astonishment that is, while we are distracted over variations of points of doctrine, controversy’s what have you? Goodness, just to attempt to spell all this out to the best of my limited understanding is a great thing to look back on, muse on.
It is an astonishing thing. Great God in Heaven!
The scandal of the ages, God’s great condensation to the likes of us …
Since I am so full of expression and attempted explanation, an extravagance of words..
To eek out a bit of this dream from last night and I believe ii am forming a picture now of what the Lord is trying to get through to me, it is the second in the last couple of nights with a similar theme…But the premise that launched all this was over a matter of the new birth. Was in a discussion with a mother and daughter, both Catholics and the daughter well versed in her particular theology. Bringing up the subject before them was met with a chiding and from the mother “Why don’t you spell it out for the young man” sentiment towards the daughter who went on to produce… well, a literal comic strip version of the bible, I mean Batman and Robin with little voice balloons of scripture out takes. Even a family member it seems was there, belittling me for the stand of being born again. I mentioned that I was no theologian which was met with the sentiment of “poor fellow, that is surely in evidence”, was taken back a bit by it all and … well it only went downhill from there. Perhaps someday all of it can be articulated, what I believe the Lord is after.
But can I admit something here?
All this expression on this subject, everything pouring forth…It at once seems as if I am talking far beyond myself. I understand it well enough but there is something that causes me to want to run away and hide. Not out of cowardliness or anything of that sort but more from…
“Who is sufficient for these things?”
There is that which seems fragile and precious not only to that sense of loss out there with so much being spoken on the peripheral, but inwardly. I am speaking of the Gospel. This hard to attribute delicateness. It having been so…slighted and mis…represented, by the loud and proud, the ones not sent, not as the trumpet of the humble and contrite. I hardly know if this makes the sense I could wish it to. Maybe it is an appeal for bringing correction to it, from those of known experience. It still feels lacking and in need of further clarification and I also realize the tendencies to go on an on, the mind reaching in ten different directions at the same time.
It is still so beyond me, fell far unqualified to even speak and yet the compelling to do so anyway. “Knowing not what he said”. It could be chalked up to any number of things, exhaustion from a long week or coupled with that spiritual exhaustion that can come about in prayer and in even sensing the weight of words used beyond the reaches of full understanding. It’s somewhat difficult to even allow this to come forth, strangely enough.
Had mentioned a musing awhile back about Elijah and the prophets of Baal and after that tremendous dealing who quickly came the seeming turn of the great prophet into something other, when Jezebel sent after his life. How to go from that mountain to;
It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers.
Why he ran, why this expression so shortly afterwards? I hardly know and forgive the applications if it be off, but the wonder is if it was in large part due to that sense of feeling unworthy for the task in the first place, that of being God’s instrument in the slaying of the false prophets and having been spent in what must have been an incredible spiritual expenditure…found himself right where the expected weakness would be, in that state of exhaustion and bewilderment. Not only “I am not better” but “take away my life”.
This is not a statement, just a wonder. And hardly a comparison but any stretch of the imagination.
Maybe all that I am trying to express is … do we feel the gravity of these things? Have they become so commonplace that the sense of awe and admiration, of what holiness means, not what has been wrongly attributed to it, but the weight of the sacred…
Souls. This is what is being dealt with, souls that belong to God and God alone. “All souls are Mine”. God is reconciling the world to Himself, how hard for this mere man to even utter such a thing, to speak in His stead. I shudder and flee.
I don't know if i could give birth to something like this.
excellent my friend, the lord of all does this within. i think the answer is that , " this is the lords' doing and it is marvelous in our eyes, " i was thinking of the book that was called ... John ' praying ' Hyde ... a biography on him . this man cried out God give me souls or i die , and God answered mightily.. thanks for your post it was anointed ..
Just going back to the question as to whether Adam and Eve had children before the fall - can you imagine either the devil holding off for more than 9 months to tempt them or them holding out against temptation that long? I don't think it happened. I believe that one of the old commentators had them falling into sin by 9am on the 7th day!
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