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Could this be the REAL reason for and the answer to the economic crisis!!!??? (secular documentary)

A
anonymity Jan 16, 2009

The Money Masters (video)
[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936]click here[/url]

The Money Masters (website)
[url=http://www.themoneymasters.com/]click here[/url]

This is the #1 video on Google about money. I believe that this documentary may be able to tell us what "actually" happened and once we know that we may have the solution to fixing this disaster. Whether or not it is fixed as a whole I believe there may also be answers for us as individuals and specifically ministerial Christian's to thrive in this situation economically for the Kingdom. I believe that this is possibly a very IMPORTANT message and very insighftul in truth to things that many are totally oblivious to. The website also carries a lot of information.

A
anonymity Jan 16, 2009

Money As Debt (video)
[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279&ei=UsVwSZ6yD4nS-AG39qW3BQ&q=money]click here[/url]

Money as Debt (website)
[url=http://www.moneyasdebt.net/]click here[/url]

If you are not able to watch the first extensive video or maybe don't understand it. This video is easier to understand and it is also animated. I do not think it is as striking or complete but may be sufficient. There is also a trailer that is even shorter as an introduction.

A
anonymity Jan 17, 2009

Robert Kiyosaki 2008 predictions (video)
[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7394912320854169271&ei=DtlwSfjINJ-G_AHz-5CwBQ&q=Robert+Kiyosaki&hl=en&dur=3]click here[/url]

This short video clip is from a main prominent financial advisor. It is in conversation form and was produced more recently in 08 so I think it may be more approachable and relevant in specific senses. It does not however deal with a lot of things that the previous films do.

sermonindex Jan 17, 2009

In meek and humble respect, I say this: I thought the video presented, as I have only watched the first 10 minutes of the first linked video, (which I must add is 3 hours and 35 minutes) I thought this video would go to the true HEART of why this nation is in dire economic straits, I'll attend to that in a second.

Instead, what I hear in this video is that the "fault" lies with "international bankers" and their waterbearer's the United States Federal Reserve.

No. For a mind, carnally canted, it is so easy to blame someone else, to blame "forces" that are unseen, seemingly hidden, with nefarious motives, and levers at their disposal.

The fault lies with US, this whole world. Once we began to drink from the cup of the 'whore of Babylon', a new thing happened in this world. When I say "drink", I do mean a literal drink, a liquid that would set in motion the endtimes, and that "drink" is petroleum.

Some may disagree with me, thats called discussion, but I ask you this, when you can transport a mango, for instance, thousands of miles, and deliver it fresh at a grocery store for a relatively cheap price, is that not a relatively new occurence? Is that not ease and luxury? Ask yourself this, the person that cut that mango, and the person that consumes that mango, do they live in similiar circumstance?

the answer is no. The person who cuts the mango probably doesnt have clean drinking water readily available, while the person who eats the mango might have central air conditioning, and a nice big TV to watch the filth and garbage that pours out of the many satellites launched by the mango eaters societal and economic combines. The mango cuter, in their country, what is the infant mortality rate? the average life span? In the mango eater's country, you can rest assured, the medical care is first rate.

Drinking from this cup has given other "little pleasures", such as this, it is now possible for a mango eater to board a jet airplane, and flee their winter clime, fly four hours, land on an island in the Gulf of mexico, and get whisked off to an "all inclusive" walled resort, where they can eat all the food they want, drink all the alcohol they want, (and they do) and do this for $1000 dollars for 4 days, while at the same time, those who attend to their every need earn $10 a day, and are forbidden to accept "tips", and those who vacation at such "all inclusive" resorts are told NOT to tip these people, usually of color and descendants of slaves.

You might think I'm preaching of some sort of secular politic polemic, talking about the disparities of wealth throughout the world, I'm not. The disparities are wealth in this world are age old, they are nothing, but what HAS happened is that a great soul pollution has taken place in what is called the "first world", instead of fearing God, which is wisdom, the people of the first world have been seduced by the enemy to making an idol and worshipping that idol, which is wealth, money, ease, comfort luxury, and now, an impatient and angry God is preparing Divine Chastisement for all of us.

All one has to do is to look at the falsehoods of what is called the prosperity ...ahhh, movement, doctrine....whatever hellish name it goes under. Simply put, the people of the world have crafted a golden calf, and no more so, than in our nation, the United States. From birth, all the worldly narratives beamed out at us are to "consume". Saving surplus? NO! Spend it, walk the aisles of the mall, gaze into the shops, dream big, you can have it all, etc. Are you sad? Depressed? Empty? "Don't worry, be happy", "shop till you drop", just make sure you ignore the bound homeless drug fiend, or the widow, or the fatherless, who turn to vicious drug gangs looking so desperately for the love and wisdom of a father and of THE FATHER. Just ignore them all, it'll go away, and you'll be back home, unwrapping your latest "purchase"...a wide screen TV? a spa? a nice big SUV?

lets go a little deeper now, mankind in his feckless and arrogant behavior decides to play "god" and crafted a weapon that for a millisecond mimics the power of the sun....but just for a millisecond. Now the men who worked on this weapon, the atomic bomb, didnt do it from an evil desire, they were working against what they saw as a great evil, the satanic war machine of hitler, but he was dead before they tested this weapon, and to save a million American boys, we laid it on the Japanese...the war was over, but the evil genie had been let out of the bottle.

So now today, we have three wicked wordly elements at work, the worship of wealth, the use of a declining resource that props up this wealth, petroleum, and the lust of the sons of Ishmael to ALSO have this wonderous weapon, this evil genie, nuclear weapons technology.

and to further stir this demonic brew, where does most of this petroleum lay?

right in the heartlands of the sons of Ishmael.

Take these three "ingredients", and watch and fear how the Hand of the Lord will stir.

No, its not "international bankers" or "trilaterists", or whatever trim buzzword that a corrupt fleshly mind can concoct...oh no, such has been prophesied by men being swept along by the Lord, IN HOLY SCRIPTURE, it is us, all of us, and the only "Thing" that can save us is Jesus, and Faith in Him.

Everything else is white noise, everything else is the spew of demons, designed to replace Faith with fear, including such video's you have linked, they are lies. The problem lays within the unrepentant heart, the unrepentant world, greedy and grasping for that last little taste of fleshly luxury, may God burn it all up like straw and hay, and He will, you can count on that.

But you can also count on Jesus, you can rest in Jesus, Saviour of the world, Lamb of God, Messiah, Bride Groom, Light of the world....or you can believe in the fear mongering spew of such offerings. I say that in no offense to you who posted it.

I was led to say all this because in the first video at 8 minutes and 40 seconds, instead of quoting a Godly man, this video quotes a long dead congressman by the name of Louis McFadden (1876-1936)...I looked him up...to see if this was man who feared God, loved the Lord, and here's what I read:

"McFadden was known as openly Anti-semitic. He claimed that Jews controlled the American economy, and that the United States had to choose between "God and the money changers who have unlawfully taken our gold and lawful money into their possession."[1] McFadden also blamed Jews for president Roosevelt's decision to abandon the gold standard, and claimed that "in the United States today, the Gentiles have the slips of paper while the Jews have the lawful money."[2] McFadden was also a supporter of Hitler and the Nazis' anti-Jewish policies. McFadden encouraged Hitler's attempts to destroy the alleged Jewish control of the German economy, media, education, and professions.[3] When McFadden ran for the presidency in 1936, one of his slogans was “Christianity instead of Judaism.”[4]

and this is what I am to recieve as an edifying video?

Sir, maam, is this your testimony on this website? I ask you that in all meekness.

satan is now desperate, his end is near, he labors harder and harder, dont help do his work, Worship God only, and dont rely on the testimony of wicked and depraved minds.

sermonindex Jan 17, 2009

removed by poster

R
rookie Jan 17, 2009

Brother wrote:


The fault lies with US, this whole world. Once we began to drink from the cup of the 'whore of Babylon', a new thing happened in this world. When I say "drink", I do mean a literal drink, a liquid that would set in motion the endtimes, and that "drink" is petroleum.


On Thursday I read two articles seemingly unrelated...

The first dealt with the current financial distress of Bank of America. After acquiring a failing Countrywide Financial and Merill Lynch (sp ?) this bank is now failing also. It is reported that the CEO of Bank of America threatened to walk away from the Merill Lynch deal if the government would not bail them out of their financial situation.

On Friday the US government provided 20 Billion more plus a promise to back up to 138 billion to secure Bank of America's risk from failure.


The second article that I read on Thursday dealt with Merill Lynch who is owned by Bank of America seeking to rent a super oil tanker. The Bank is willing to spend 75,000 dollars a day to store 2 million barrels of oil in the effort to take surplus oil off the market and thus inflate the price of oil.

In this article it also stated that Citigroup and other financial institutions have already rented oil tankers for the same purpose.

.........................................................

Does it seem right that both Bank of America and Citigroup, two financial institutions which have received close to one half a trillion dollars of taxpayer money, should then turn around and seek to manipulate the price of oil so that they could profit?

Whether it is oil or food or water the banking system has first position in all matters.....

In Christ
Jeff

A
anonymity Jan 17, 2009

Natan,

I thought this video would go to the true HEART of why this nation is in dire economic straits

I am sorry for your confusion. I tried to point out that it was mainly of secular things in the natural. I wrote answer to economic crisis, it is about money, prominent financial adviser, and so forth. I can see where you might have thought something else though.

In writing about secular things I was also writing about spiritual things since I believe they are to certain degrees tied together and are effectual one upon the other. So in the end I was really writing about spiritual things or at least that was my aim.

I do understand that the main reason for judgment and so forth is in our relation to God. I was merely speaking within the specific sphere of natural things. I was saying that it may be the natural reason and answer for the circumstance.

Lastly, I am not sure that the condition in the US or the world for that matter is specific judgment from God. I do believe that God judges but I see a difference between general and specific judgment. The general judgment would be from the curse that originated with Adam. Within this could be weather catastrophes, economic woes, and other birth pangs. The specific judgment would be when God looks down on a certain region and says they have done this and that and then judges them. I am not saying that this is the case with the US I am just saying that I am not sure. I am not convinced that it necessarily has to be. I know that there will be a great city with great riches that will last even to the end and I do not believe it is the end of the end yet.


which I must add is 3 hours and 35 minutes

It is a long film but I think it is worth it or else I would not have posted it. I also had a hard time focusing and understanding it. This is why I had to watch it multiple time and still need to a couple more. I think it is good though many films are shallow but this is a diligent and deep documentary. So it is relative more so to our culture but I am happy to have a resource that is scholarly for educational purposes. It was originally packaged in multiple DVDs as sessions. Also I think the nature of a documentary and that the topic is so lofty requires it to be such. And, I think that we should not expect an important message to often be small.



Instead, what I hear in this video is that the "fault" lies with "international bankers" and their waterbearer's the United States Federal Reserve.

You said that the fault is not with the elite but with all of us. I believe this is true in a sense, but I also believe it possible for it to be the leaderships fault. Corrupt government could have been appointed to judge those under it. It is a biblical concept that the rich oppress the poor. History has shown us that often a government has taken advantage of its people.

As for the truth of this topic. Let me say that I said it "may" be true. It is my present hypothesis that it is possibly so.

From my understanding though somewhat substantially limited here is how I think I see things:

The government gave out money too easy. The bankers gave out too much money. The people took more money then they could pay. The housing bubble burst and it left us with great debt. This then effected all the other things and the economy in general. We tried a stimulus but it was spent wrongly and no one really knows where it went. And now we are planning on spending more when that is the very thing that got us in trouble yet there may be some hope of turn around. Presently we are trillions of dollars in debt and plan to be more so. When more money is spent the dollar will inflate and and if the stimulus does not work we will be in very big trouble financially. There may be even a lot more money given out. So we should possibly change our paper money into gold as a hedge and investment since if the dollar inflates it will be worth nothing and gold is somewhat stable and rises in time of turmoil.


All one has to do is to look at the falsehoods of what is called the prosperity ...ahhh, movement, doctrine

I in some sense and to some degree believe in a prosperity doctrine. I do not believe it in the classic sense. I believe that the Lord can bless us financially as exploits for the ministry and not for ourselves. This is why I am writing about money because I think it is importance for the use of ministry.

I at one point thought that if I wanted to be Apostolic that I had to be poor. This is true in a sense but I also believe that making tents and working so that we will be able to help others also it important. In light of that I am trying to edify the Church by presenting a possibly answer wisdom to do so in such a time as this.


I was led to say all this because in the first video at 8 minutes and 40 seconds, instead of quoting a Godly man, this video quotes a long dead congressman by the name of Louis McFadden (1876-1936)...I looked him up...to see if this was man who feared God, loved the Lord, and here's what I read: "McFadden was known as openly Anti-semitic. He claimed that Jews controlled the American economy, and that the United States had to choose between "God and the money changers who have unlawfully taken our gold and lawful money into their possession."[1] McFadden also blamed Jews for president Roosevelt's decision to abandon the gold standard, and claimed that "in the United States today, the Gentiles have the slips of paper while the Jews have the lawful money."[2] McFadden was also a supporter of Hitler and the Nazis' anti-Jewish policies. McFadden encouraged Hitler's attempts to destroy the alleged Jewish control of the German economy, media, education, and professions.[3] When McFadden ran for the presidency in 1936, one of his slogans was “Christianity instead of Judaism.”[4]

Before my conversion I was uneducated. In my early stages of Christianity I was becoming zealous educated in spiritual things. As time progressed I started to become interested in secular things like government and the economy especially in light of the last days, Israel, and persecution. I was at first without any certain position in parties. I then leaned toward Conservative Republican. I watched the news, had moral ethics, and so forth. I later came upon the teachings of the New World Order, conspiracies, and the Constitutionalist Libertarian party. I researched the Ron Paul, Alex Jones, Loose Change, Zeitgeist. Due to the fact that I was relatively new to this and very limited in understanding I took my time. As I studied into it somewhat thoroughly I came to understand that some of it was true, some false, and some I am not sure of. I mainly turned from it because of their views on Israel believing that they are in the land as a coup. So because of my Biblical foundations it gave me clarity to turn from these things but not totally.

When it comes to this documentary the first time I watched it I did not understand a thing. more recently as a significant amount of time has passed I watched it again and was able to comprehend much of it. A lot of the reason that I posted it was to hopefully get some counsel on it.

I am not so sure that this video is specifically blaming Israel. They may or may not but there was no specific mention. As for the man they may have just quoted him because he was a man that many would take his word. I do share your concern with you. I do not want to throw the baby out with the bathwater however. I still need to watch this video a few more times and study more fully. I think Israel could possibly have their hand in some of it for they are not exempt from doing any evil.

Though I am not really ready to write about what the film is about I will attempt to possibly bring some more light to the table. We had gold as money. However we switched over to paper that represents money. The problem is though that the paper we have today has nothing backing it. The Federal Reserve is not even the Federal government but a private business like Federal Express. Even the word "reserve" is deceitful because they do not have a reserve. This Federal Reserve is even more powerful then the Federal government and they are in control and they are not even our government. The bankers loan money that they do not even have. We think they have money but they don't really all they are required to have is 10% of it. So really they are saying I will loan you something that is really worth anything and you will pay me interest for it. They are able to give this imaginated money on the promise that we will repay. So really we are borrowing from those who are borrowing from us. Now that they have all the power they can inflate the paper dollar whenever they want and ruin everything so that they can buy everything up for cheap and have even more power. We were at one point forced to sell all our gold and then it was purchased away from internationals. The President that did it and other bemoan what has happened. Therefore what we need to do is get rid of this fake federal reserve become independent and run our own. If things do not change then we should prepare by buying gold now before a great depression comes. This gold will then be worth a lot. I have left out somethings like more fully what to do once we rid of the Federal Reserve, a proper critique of the film, and ect.

W
White_Stone Jan 18, 2009

If things do not change then we should prepare by buying gold now before a great depression comes. This gold will then be worth a lot.

James 3:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

What good will buying gold do? How are you going to get rid of the Federal Reserve short of a Revolution?

Neil is correct about the Petroleum.

Regards,
white stone

A
anonymity Jan 18, 2009

Whitestone,

Quote: If things do not change then we should prepare by buying gold now before a great depression comes. This gold will then be worth a lot.

James 3:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

What good will buying gold do?

First, if the dollar inflates which it may drastically due to debt and lending and creating then gold will possibly be a hedge that will be stable in its worth and keep your money from turning to nothing which in a sense it already is since it is not really backed by anything.

Second, if the dollar inflates and you have gold not only will it be a hedge but it will also be a gain and profiting investment because the worth of gold will probably rise since many will in the case of an inflated dollar buy it up. Much of what dictates the price of gold is supply and demand so if many buy it then it will be worth a lot. And, I have heard that is such a case of an economic depression that its worth will sky rocket. There are also many other advantages to have gold or other precious metals like that fact that you can purchase universally without exchange, you can more easily hide it, and just generally gold has throughout all time been valuable as well as other metals since they cannot be created at least gold cant.

Third, in response to James 5:3. This verse is not referring to Christians contextually. It is talking about sinful men who are proud, self secure, living in luxury, and oppressing the poor.

Even if it were talking about Christian's I am not talking about getting wealth in the same way.

In contrast I am saying get rich "in the Lord's will by His grace" but not to do evil with it or to do it for yourself but to do it for the glory of God in the ministry.

Also, this verse is not saying that they were storing up wealth "for" the last days but "in" the last days. I know that the certain translation you are using says "for" this however is debatable since other translations say "in". I would go with the latter "in" because I can tell by what he is saying and meaning contextually. These sinful men or backslidden whatever Christians were not preparing for the last days. Instead they were secure for you can see where they said we will go to such and such a place for a year and were rebuked for that. And they were unwitting in that they did not know it was the last days and this is why James had to instruct them in the matter.

As I was writing this I had a thought. [b]It says in Revelation that if we don't have the mark of the beast then we wont be able to buy or sell. However if we don't use the government currency but instead use gold or some other good then we will not be subject to that.[/b]

Lastly, I would like to remark that I found the article on Wikipedia about gold to be helpful:
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold]click here[/url]


How are you going to get rid of the Federal Reserve short of a Revolution?

I am still in the midst of studying the whole subject myself and so was hopefully hoping that in posting I would be able to converse with those who were more knowledgeable or could edify me in some way. So for instance in this subject I am not quite 100% complete in the matter.

In short I can say that there is a monetary reform act on the Money Masters website:
[url=http://www.themoneymasters.com/mra.htm]click here[/url]

But yes, it would take a Revolution. This is not impossible I do not believe. A bad economy and condition may motivate people however and videos such as this may be an educational resource to prep such a reform. I think it is only a law that needs to be passed. I know that Ron Paul said clearly and boldly said that if he were elected that he would abolish it since it is unconstitutional.

Here also are some clear bold statements from previous US Presidents on the topic and if you read the last one it says that a reform like what we are talking has happened before by Presidents or a President:
[url=http://www.themoneymasters.com/quotations.htm]click here[/url]


Neil is correct about the Petroleum.

Yes, I agree with it as I do with much that he has said. I do believe it is the fault of the people but I am not confident that it is not also the fault of the elite. I think oil is only one aspect of the problem though.

R
rookie Jan 18, 2009

I have watched the first half of the Money Masters video.

If one has been watching the events of the current financial crisis one will recognize that there are many parallels with the historical documentary given in the Money Masters video.

This reminds me of Solomon's observation given to us by the Holy Spirit....
.............................................................................................

Eccl 1:

9 \tThat which has been is what will be,
\tThat which is done is what will be done,
\tAnd there is nothing new under the sun.
10 \tIs there anything of which it may be said,
\t“See, this is new”?
\tIt has already been in ancient times before us.
11 \tThere is no remembrance of former things,
\tNor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come
\tBy those who will come after.

.............................................................................................

The prince of Tyre used money as a means to facilitate the trade of nations. He was a money master. Today is no different....

In Christ
Jeff

A
anonymity Jan 19, 2009

Rookie,

On Thursday I read two articles seemingly unrelated... The first dealt with the current financial distress of Bank of America. After acquiring a failing Countrywide Financial and Merill Lynch (sp ?) this bank is now failing also. It is reported that the CEO of Bank of America threatened to walk away from the Merill Lynch deal if the government would not bail them out of their financial situation. On Friday the US government provided 20 Billion more plus a promise to back up to 138 billion to secure Bank of America's risk from failure. The second article that I read on Thursday dealt with Merill Lynch who is owned by Bank of America seeking to rent a super oil tanker. The Bank is willing to spend 75,000 dollars a day to store 2 million barrels of oil in the effort to take surplus oil off the market and thus inflate the price of oil. In this article it also stated that Citigroup and other financial institutions have already rented oil tankers for the same purpose. .........................................................
Does it seem right that both Bank of America and Citigroup, two financial institutions which have received close to one half a trillion dollars of taxpayer money, should then turn around and seek to manipulate the price of oil so that they could profit?

Those 2 articles are very interesting. Crazy that you randomly came upon those articles and were able to piece them together.


I have watched the first half of the Money Masters video. [b]If one has been watching the events of the current financial crisis one will recognize that there are many parallels with the historical documentary given in the Money Masters video.[/b]

Yes, I found it surprising that this video was made years ago and seems to be a strongly paralleling prediction!


This reminds me of Solomon's observation given to us by the Holy Spirit.... ............................................................................................. Eccl 1: 9 That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun. 10 Is there anything of which it may be said, “See, this is new”? It has already been in ancient times before us. 11 There is no remembrance of former things, Nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come By those who will come after.

This is an interesting point. It seems that many of us at least in the West think our government could never corrupt in such an extreme fashion yet history teaches us that this has happened all throughout human history and it is bound to repeat itself and even increase as the scriptures state.

R
rookie Jan 19, 2009

Today, another article on the oil market.....

Morgan Stanley Hires Supertanker to Store Oil in Gulf

By Alaric Nightingale

Jan. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Morgan Stanley hired a supertanker to store crude oil in the Gulf of Mexico, joining Citigroup Inc. and Royal Dutch Shell Plc in trying to profit from higher prices later in the year, two shipbrokers said.

The ship is the Argenta, capable of carrying more than 2 million barrels, Paris-based Barry Rogliano Salles and Athens- based Optima Shipbrokers said in reports today. Morgan Stanley officials in London didn’t immediately reply to three phone messages seeking comment.

Banks and commodity traders are seeking new ways to make money after the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index fell by the most since 1937 last year and crude oil prices dropped more than $100 a barrel from their peak. Companies including Koch Industries Inc. and BP Plc are hoarding enough crude at sea to supply the world for almost a day.

“It’s a window of opportunity that won’t last long,” Gareth Lewis-Davies, a London-based energy analyst at Dresdner Kleinwort Group, said by phone. There may only be four or five banks with the expertise to make the trade, he said.

Frontline Ltd., the world’s biggest owner of supertankers, said Jan. 14 about 80 million barrels of crude oil are being stored in tankers, the most in 20 years. A purchaser could buy oil now, keep it for months at sea and fetch better prices by selling futures that are higher than the spot price.

The so-called contango pricing structure in oil has been caused by excess supply as demand slows and speculation that output cuts by the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries will reduce the glut later this year.

Crude Grades

The easiest types of oil to buy for the trade are likely to be either West Texas Intermediate or the North Sea grades Brent, Forties, Oseberg or Ekofisk. That’s because they are the ones used to settle the most-traded futures contracts.

Other oils, such as those from the Middle East and Africa, are usually bought and sold at prices related to the main European and U.S. grades. Because those prices fluctuate, it means traders assume an extra risk by hoarding them.

Phibro LLC, Citigroup’s commodities trading unit, has the 1 million-barrel carrier Ice Transporter stationed off north Scotland and also hired the supertanker Ashna to store. Shell, Europe’s largest oil company, booked two supertankers.

“From a tanker owner’s perspective, this is a little gift from heaven,” Finn Engelsen, managing director of Lorentzen & Stemoco AS, an Oslo-based shipbroker and consultant, said by phone from Oslo today.

Morgan Stanley hired its tanker at $68,000 a day, the two brokers said. That works out at $1.02 a barrel a month, based on a 2 million-barrel cargo. Benchmark U.S. oil futures are trading at an average of $3.65 more than the previous month between February and June.

.................................................

Oil will be a crisis issue in the near future. Those who manipulate or speculate on oil will profit. The poor and down trodden will suffer....
..............................................
Jam 5:1 Go to now, [ye] rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon [you].

Jam 5:2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.

Jam 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Jam 5:4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.

Jam 5:5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.

Jam 5:6 Ye have condemned [and] killed the just; [and] he doth not resist you.

................................................

In Christ
Jeff

S
sojourner7 Jan 19, 2009

Man in the vanity of his imagination may think
he has the solution to this financial crisis.
Isn't that the problem to begin with?? Man
relying upon his own wisdom. Prophecy tells
us a financial collapse is imminent; because
this nation has forgotten the four little words
we engrave on all our currency; IN GOD WE TRUST!!

W
White_Stone Jan 19, 2009

because this nation has forgotten the four little words we engrave on all our currency; IN GOD WE TRUST!!

I see it as this Nation has turned down a terrible path that is leading to the complete removal of the very mention of God's name.

Financial loss is the least of it's worries.

Jesus alone can save us.

Matthew 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
From Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Bible, "Be the times never so difficult, enemies never so outrageous, and events never so threatening, yet need we not fear, yet will we not fear, though the earth be removed, while we have so good a God, so good a cause, and so good a hope through grace. . . . Yes, this is soon said; but when it comes to the trial, racks and tortures, dungeons and galleys, axes and gibbets, fire and faggot, are terrible things, enough to make the stoutest heart to tremble, and to start back, especially when it is plain, that they may be avoided by a few declining steps; and therefore, to fortify us against this temptation, we have here, good reason against this fear, taken from the limited power of the enemies; they kill the body, that is the utmost their rage can extend to; hitherto they can go, if God permit them, but no further; they are not able to kill the soul, nor to do it any hurt, and the soul is the man. By this it appears, that the soul does not (as some dream) fall asleep at death, nor is deprived of thought and perception; for then the killing of the body would be the killing of the soul too. The soul is killed when it is separated from God and his love, which is its life, and is made a vessel of his wrath; now this is out of the reach of their power. Tribulation, distress, and persecution may separate us from all the world, but cannot part between us and God, cannot make us either not to love him, or not to be loved by him."

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: 12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it. 13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

Our duty to to spread the Gospel, it is needed more than food or water. People are dying without proper nourishment. Turn them towards Jesus and the worry of the financial losses will be as nothing. (I am NOT saying God will bless you or them with money but with the peace of mind gained from leaning on Him for everything.)

Am I making any sense? Maybe a short recap, I do not worry about anything that is happening but I do watch it as one would watch the sky to determine if it will be a gentle rain or a fierce storm. I see no shelter from the economic storm BUT in Jesus. There is no shelter from the loss of morals in this world except in His Words. He has the words of Life if we will only listen.

Kind regards,
white stone

A
anonymity Jan 19, 2009

Rookie,

Today, another article on the oil market..... Morgan Stanley Hires Supertanker to Store Oil in Gulf By Alaric Nightingale Jan. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Morgan Stanley hired a supertanker to store crude oil in the Gulf of Mexico, joining Citigroup Inc. and Royal Dutch Shell Plc in trying to profit from higher prices later in the year, two shipbrokers said. The ship is the Argenta, capable of carrying more than 2 million barrels, Paris-based Barry Rogliano Salles and Athens- based Optima Shipbrokers said in reports today. Morgan Stanley officials in London didn’t immediately reply to three phone messages seeking comment. Banks and commodity traders are seeking new ways to make money after the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index fell by the most since 1937 last year and crude oil prices dropped more than $100 a barrel from their peak. Companies including Koch Industries Inc. and BP Plc are hoarding enough crude at sea to supply the world for almost a day. “It’s a window of opportunity that won’t last long,” Gareth Lewis-Davies, a London-based energy analyst at Dresdner Kleinwort Group, said by phone. There may only be four or five banks with the expertise to make the trade, he said. Frontline Ltd., the world’s biggest owner of supertankers, said Jan. 14 about 80 million barrels of crude oil are being stored in tankers, the most in 20 years. A purchaser could buy oil now, keep it for months at sea and fetch better prices by selling futures that are higher than the spot price. The so-called contango pricing structure in oil has been caused by excess supply as demand slows and speculation that output cuts by the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries will reduce the glut later this year. Crude Grades The easiest types of oil to buy for the trade are likely to be either West Texas Intermediate or the North Sea grades Brent, Forties, Oseberg or Ekofisk. That’s because they are the ones used to settle the most-traded futures contracts. Other oils, such as those from the Middle East and Africa, are usually bought and sold at prices related to the main European and U.S. grades. Because those prices fluctuate, it means traders assume an extra risk by hoarding them. Phibro LLC, Citigroup’s commodities trading unit, has the 1 million-barrel carrier Ice Transporter stationed off north Scotland and also hired the supertanker Ashna to store. Shell, Europe’s largest oil company, booked two supertankers. “From a tanker owner’s perspective, this is a little gift from heaven,” Finn Engelsen, managing director of Lorentzen & Stemoco AS, an Oslo-based shipbroker and consultant, said by phone from Oslo today. Morgan Stanley hired its tanker at $68,000 a day, the two brokers said. That works out at $1.02 a barrel a month, based on a 2 million-barrel cargo. Benchmark U.S. oil futures are trading at an average of $3.65 more than the previous month between February and June. ................................................. Oil will be a crisis issue in the near future. Those who manipulate or speculate on oil will profit. The poor and down trodden will suffer....

Wow. I wonder where you find this stuff.

Oil is liquid gold and right now it is escalating.

This article goes along with one of the points of the Money Masters Documentary in that they are seeking to inflate the price of oil by hoarding it and in the same way the documentary states that the Federal Reserve or whomever is in power of the currency can inflate the dollar and then when no one can pay for anything they buy it all up for cheap and gain even more power.

A
anonymity Jan 19, 2009

Sojourner,

Man in the vanity of his imagination may think he has the solution to this financial crisis. Isn't that the problem to begin with?? Man relying upon his own wisdom. Prophecy tells us a financial collapse is imminent; because this nation has forgotten the four little words we engrave on all our currency; IN GOD WE TRUST!!

So from what you have written I believe you are saying that the US economic crisis is judgment from God and can only be fixed if America repents and turns to God and trusts Him and not themselves and that prophecy has told us that this would happen.

I agree that in general the bad things which happen to mankind are judgments from God. I am not sure however if you can say that this was a specific judgment from God. For there have been many evil nations who have had power and wealth. If a nation could get rich from from obedience from God would this not be the prosperity gospel?

I also do not think that prophecy specifically stated that this would happen. I know that birth pangs will increase and crescendo during the tribulation and that one of these things will be famine and such but this does not mean that there will not be rich countries or at least cities. For we read of the rich merchants and the great city. So America could remain rich in the last days.

Also, I am not trying to say that what I have presented here in this thread is the "main" answer or reason only that it may be one. I am speaking more from the natural side of things. I believe this ties in with spiritual things however and so I have posted it.

My main post was not to say that we need the US to get rich. I think that it may be good for the US to have power instead of other nations like Iran or China. If a Christian lived in Germany during the time of Hitler and knew it then they should speak up.

I know that the main way to fix this is not what I have here written. I however think it extreme to say that we should do nothing. I think that it may be good for us to instruct the US so that they are not oppressed by the rich through manipulation. And most specifically I think it good for Christians to be prepared and to have wisdom as to thrive in this economic situation for the provision of ministries.

A
anonymity Jan 19, 2009

Whitestone,

I see it as this Nation has turned down a terrible path that is leading to the complete removal of the very mention of God's name.

This could be true but disobedience to God in this age does not mean you will not be rich nor does the US turning mean that they wil become rich. The US is not Israel.


Financial loss is the least of it's worries.

This is true but this does not mean that it does not matter at all for if the US loses power it may go to worse power and people ought to a degree care about their livelihood. And my main point is not for the US to be rich but to not be overrun by the corrupt elite.


Matthew 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I agree that we as Christian ought not to worry and that the world ought not to as well but to trust in God but I want to make it clear that I am not saying that we should fear but that we should to some degree be practical.

Our duty to to spread the Gospel, it is needed more than food or water. People are dying without proper nourishment. Turn them towards Jesus and the worry of the financial losses will be as nothing.

I strongly agree with part of this statement but I also believe that part of our ministry is also providing for the practical we are to be zealous for good works and true and undefiled religion is this that we care for the widow and the orphan.

Even those who trust God and have financial problems it is not as nothing. Even when we are trusting we are to be fervently praying and it is not easy though we have peace and grace.

Lastly, again my point is not to say that the main thing we need is for the US to prosper. Nor am I saying that this is not judgment. But I think that we ought to seek good unless we are sure that it is "specific" judgment. And that we as Christians ought to be wise and thrive financially in this situation for the good of the Kingdom in the Lord's will.


Am I making any sense? Maybe a short recap, I do not worry about anything that is happening but I do watch it as one would watch the sky to determine if it will be a gentle rain or a fierce storm. I see no shelter from the economic storm BUT in Jesus. There is no shelter from the loss of morals in this world except in His Words. He has the words of Life if we will only listen.

Yes I clearly understand what you are saying and I believe all of it except for that which I believe you have polarized to one side of the spectrum.

As for shelter in the economic storm I believe that Jesus is our shelter but I also believe that we may also be able to find a way through practical knowledge to be stewards financially.

A
anonymity Jan 19, 2009

The Energy Non-Crisis by Lindsey Williams (video)
[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147]click here[/url]

Threatened by billionaire causes him to use discretion (video)
[url=[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQiL19G2j0k&feature=related]click here[/url]

Recently saying Russia has found major oil that will shift power (video)
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZhXfw1e_Zc&feature=related]click here[/url]

I wonder if it is by providence that I came upon this video. I saw it on the Google video home page featured as one of the most frequently and recently viewed. It is a testimony from a [b]Baptist Missionary[/b] named [url=http://www.reformation.org/energy-non-crisis.html]Lindsey Williams[/url] who gives his first hand account of his experience with the elite in the oil industry and in the world. He says some very lofty and serious things here that I think ought to at least be heard. If you would like to know what the message is about before watching it just click on his name. As for the second link it is to a video that says he was threatened by a billionaire due in part to the fact that his video was number one on Google video for quite a while.

p.s. Rookie, I think you might find this especially interesting let me know if you are able to listen to it!

sermonindex Jan 20, 2009

I am no apologist for Merrill Lynch, but I don't see anything nefarious about them purchasing 2 millions barrels of crude and then looking to store it. Believe me, in a world that consumes 85 million barrels of crude a DAY, 2 million barrels is hardly manipulation, what they are doing is looking for CURRENCY, they are making a commercial decision, that spot market crude oil in the 35-45 dollar barrel range is a great intermediate term purchase, as it DRAMATICALLY undervalued at this price.

How do I know this? Well, the poster "anon" and yourself and others have noticed that the Fed is desperately trying to monetize its way out of this mess, right? For instance, in just Oct 08 alone, the FED's M1,M2, and M3 measures of money supply rocketed up 314%, that means they're printing money out of thin air, which in time will degrade the dollar...sooooo, if you can buy 2 million barrels of crude with 70 million 2009 US PAPER dollars (crude at 35 a barrel) its not much different than an average citizen, taking two thousand PAPER dollars(of savings) and buying 100 American Silver Eagle one ounce coins for $20 a piece, and storing them in a home safe.(dont pay attention to the listed price of silver at $11 an ounce, the real world price is somewhere between $15 and 25)

The question is, what is real currency? as far as this world is concerned. It's THINGS. Whether it be crude oil stored in bunker storage, or corn stored in a bin, or ounces of silver stored in a home safe, etc, etc. tangible assets are the thing, not stocks, or bonds, or anything paper denominated.

and I utterly refute this viewpoint that there is this secret cabal of "money masters", "international bankers", or "elites", some call them the "illuminati"...whatever, what turned me off in a second, from this "Money Masters" video, is I've heard that all before and its intellectually and spiritually bankrupt, especially when the first man quoted in this video is an infamous anti-semitic Congressman from the early 1900's.McFadden. That's when you lose me.

Not because I refuse to "face the truth", but because its intellectually weak-kneed to conjure up some unknown, murky cabal of "elites" and to attach blame to this shadowy group, for the financial problems of this world.

The MAIN and only problem in this world is SIN. I'm not confining this declaration to sins of the flesh, or the indidvidual, or one button issues of the extent of sin, whether it be gay marriage, abortion, etc, NO, this world is SIN SICK, whether it be murdering babies, abortion, or war death, or greed, or watching your neighbor's wife in a covetous unclean manner, or rank corruption whether it be in the pulpit, the statehouse, the Whitehouse, your house, my house, or ..or ..or ...or. This world is in the grips of sin, plain and simple, and there is no vast group of elites, there are just lost people. I dont care whether they are worth billions or no millions, they are lost, scattered helpless sheep in need of Savior, and the simple fact is, that God Almighty let the "god of this age" loose to "run things"...run the systems of this world, and look what we have.....a sin sick world.

But HalleLuYah, what did He do? I know I'm preaching to the choir brother, but God put His Only Son, Jesus Christ up on the Cross, and He is sufficient, His Blood is sufficient to cleanse the most heinous and unrepentant sinner.

I believe God. I believe God when He told me that He sent His Son, the Messiah of the world to the Sacrifice for my sins. I believe God. I revere God, I fear God, I love God, and I pray that this most Holy Faith be a simple one.

Sorry for the sermon, just making my lil own confession, dont mean to be contentious. I'm postively tired of all the contention, all the diviseness about arguing "religion", arguing dogmatic doctrine, all that.

I believe God, and He gave me two eyes, and He gave me His Indwelling Holy Spirit, and i can see the problem of this world is that its sin sick, period....and sometimes so am i, but Glory to God, I place my hope, my trust, my faith in Jesus, and He is all i need.

(ps, that's why I dont trade anymore)
(pps....I found Rinaldi Pasta Sauce on sale for 99 cents a bottle, and bought two cases, think I'll inflate the price?......I'm TEASING you, laugh with me)

Marantha.

neil

A
anonymity Jan 20, 2009

Natan,

In saying that the claim that the bankers are inflating oil paralleled with those inflating the dollar I was not necessarily saying that it was true in reference to the oil. I too was not fully persuaded evidentially by the articles. So please do not allow this to discredit me in context of my ability to understand things.

Once again I am not sure that one bad apple on a documentary can disprove the whole thing. It is possible that they quoted him mainly for his position and reputation. Also I do not believe that Israel is perfect and so they can do bad things. I can say that not once was Israel mentioned throughout the documentary.

As for your counter to the corruption of banks and so forth I am not so sure you can make these if you have not thoroughly studied the matter. I am not sure that you haven't or to what degree but I do know that you have not watched the film yet seem to be saying a lot about it.

If this reference to this man bothers you so much which it does to me but I also think that one can be extreme then I have posted another video. This one in contrast is from a baptist missionary who had first hand dealing with the oil companies and speaks about their manipulation of the industry and how that in many ways controls the world. So I believe that this is a more factual testimony on the whole oil subject and so would like to know your stance after seeing that.

Not once throughout this whole thread nor anywhere in the documentary is the "illuminati" mentioned. I am not saying that this illuminati is of consequence. The things spoken of here are mainly about the financial elite and their role in the world. So I think this to be a more factual things then fanciful. I do not think it such a high thing to believe there are such men in power who seek to control things behind the scenes. The question often to me is not if but to what degree. I am also not trying to cast all blame on them I do believe the people are at fault and will be judged but I also believe that there are rich men who are also at fault and that they should be exposed.

In the end it seems you have tried to reject this subject and discredit it based on false assumptions and side issues and so forth. I would also like to say that I agree with you exhortation to not be divisive and that it is wearying. It seems like the wars among us are similar to those in the world. I am only coming to you in conversation and hope that you can accept it as such. And, lastly I am still learning much about all these things and so have posted in hopes to glean from others and I do not believe that I have said anything falsely but have been reasonable in my actions thus far.


p.s. So for clarity's sake at first we were talking about how currency can be inflated by creating it. Now we are talking about how oil can be inflated by hoarding it. And, I think that the video "The Energy Non-Crisis" lays out more thorough factual argument then the previous partial articles.

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