Physical Manifestations in Religious Excitments (falling under the power of God)

I don't think this is a topic to be focused that much on but I would like to bring about some more positive sides of such occourances and allow people to see how not all such occourences are bad or to be debunked.---Falling Under the Power of the GodJonathan Edwards. His assessment was that a person may “fail bodily strength” due to fear of hell and the conviction by the Holy Spirit or due to a “foretaste of heaven.”John Wesley recognized falling to the ground as a manifestation from God, and records many such instances in his ministry. In fact, George Whitefield criticized Wesley for permitting the phenomena until it began happening in his own meetings.Finney’s ministry also frequently manifested fainting or swooning, what he called “falling under the power of God.” The Welsh revival of 1859 was accompanied by swooning as “waves of power often overwhelmed” people.Moody’s associate R.A. Torrey testified of people falling under the power of God due to conviction of sin.---My personal opinion on this occourence is that the all the references above speak of a phenomon that is drastly different from what is commonly called today 'falling under the power' or 'doing carpet time'. All of the references above from these men of God clearly stipulate that the reason for the falling down is that there was an extreme duress and conviction of sin upon the individual, this weight of guilt and the picture of the holiness and majesty is too much for the mind and body to bear. It was not paticularly a enuberating feeling that was synomonous with the presence of God. But rather it was the working of the Holy Spirit in the peoples hearts bowing them low under conviction of their ungodly state of affairs. 'On the ground crying out for mercy', usually these occourances would involve people shouting out under the state of conviction and the end result would be uncounciousness after a time of this condition and circumstances.

Moravian leader Count Zinzendorf, who was open to supernatural movings of the Holy Spirit, witnessed a man falling into an “inspired fit, jerking and convulsing, and prophesying. Zinzendorf did not hesitate to reject the inspiration.” John Wesley’s counsel was: “Do not hastily ascribe things to God. Do not easily suppose dreams, voices, impressions, visions, or revelations to be from God. They may be from Him. They may be from Nature. They may be from the devil. Therefore believe not every spirit, but ‘try the spirits whether they be from God.’” A.B. Simpson, who believed in supernatural gifts and manifestations, nonetheless observed, “There have been many instances where [seeking for] the gift of tongues led the subjects and the audiences in to the wildest excesses and were accompanied with voices and actions more closely resembling wild animals than rational beings, impressing the unprejudiced observers that it was the work of the devil.” Paul Rader, pastor of Moody Memorial Church and President of the C&MA after Simpson’s death, writes of casting out a demon from a man who came down the aisle of Moody Church barking like a dog. Pentecostal leader Charles Parham also described as demonic manifestations of barking like a dog, braying like a donkey, and crowing like a rooster, and contortions and fits. Wesley warned of a two-fold danger: 1) to regard them too much, as essential to revival, 2) to regard them too little, condemning them altogether.

There are many in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles (of which I am a credentialed minister thru - so I criticize myself as well) who are just always searching for another "buzz". They travel to all the hot spots to try do "Carpet Time" on everyones carpet just to say they did it. Now if their hunger is genuine, then I will let the Lord deal with them. However, our focus should never be simply to get goosebumps, to have an esoteric experience etc...But brother think about what you just said if people can ABUSE this presence of God and use it for their own selfish means? then what an awful sinful place this is for a person to be found. I believe as much as the socerer wanting to wield the power of the Holy Spirit for his own end. But the scriptures clearly state that God is not willing to be used! He will NOT be used by these type of men. So what you said above nullifies the potential of it being genuine in my mind brother and is something that not only scares but has grieved my heart and I am sure the heart of God.I often think of the ministry of Heidi and Rolland Bakker. This was a woman who was greatly touched by God at Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship about 10 years ago.What I have seen from her ministry and life and teachings scares me. Her head continually convulses to one side and see makes a sound like: "whoooaaaa" all the time, this I find disturbing if the Holy Spirit makes a like that. Her teachings as far as I have heard them make me cring over the lack of scripture properly given.Johnathon Edwards wife had a similar experience to that of Heidi Bakker.That is an unfair corrialtion and you cannot simply do that. There are volumes of difference and truly that is a comparision between the genuine and spurious.

There was one time i was prayed over with my husband in the conference i truely gave my heart to the Lord. I was so aware of my sin and wanted forgiveness so badly. My heart burned within me and as i was being prayed over with my husband (who at that time was my fiance) we both fell symaltainiously. I can't remember the moment it happened, it was like the Holy Spirit just touched me. I believe that moment was genuine because of the sudden awareness of my sinfull self. But what was strange (i should't really say strange) was that i felt someone's arms catch me and as i went around after the meeting trying to find out who caught me to thank them i was told no one caught me! I am absolutly 101% sure someone caught me.But like i said that was a one off. I hate it when someone who is praying for you places their hand on your forehead and tries to force you to the ground, something that happens a lot!! I sometimes feel uncomfortable when i see people so easily fall to the carpet and coats are being thrown over them. People who i've seen fall to the carpet only an hour before are back to their usual selfs drinking coffee like what happened before was just a normal routine experience. Some people almost perform for an audience if you know what i mean. It's these moments that make my spirit cringe. What really shocked me (and my husband) was one day as i was flicking through the t.v channels to find a christian radio station i saw a preacher wave his hand across a large congregation and they all fell symiltainiously as if hypmotised (excuse my poor spelling). Whats that all about? I don't beleive there is anything unusual about these manifestastions in seasons of revival as already mentioned but not in the ways described above as if it was the norm. Being touched by the Holy spirit himself in such a way is not an everyday experience. Being filled with the spirit as you read the word ect yes definatly.I know i have to be carefull what i say because it's a personnal experience and discernment is needed.In his love, Geraldine

also believed that white people worshipping and holding hands with black people was wrong and thought such was apostate behavior. To his dying day Charles Parham was an unrepentant racist, even becoming a full-fledged member of the KKK.Charles Parham was also a proponent of "British-Israelism", who's modern day theology is "Christian Identity", the heresy of the white hate groups.I cringe everytime Charles parham is mentioned as a "Pentecostal leader".

Charles Parham was also a proponent of "British-Israelism", who's modern day theology is "Christian Identity", the heresy of the white hate groups.Brother this is a different discussion. I would consider if you ever look to men much you will be discouraged, but if you look to Jesus then you will be satisfied. As to the topic matter I think its important not to accept everything that is popularized as "spiritual" in evangelical or charismatic circles but have a firm grounding in scripture and church history to judge and approve these things.

I've learned that Jonathan Edwards actually owned slaves. John Calvin had people executed, and Martin Luther was anti-Semitic. So do we discount the good they brought forth as well? (Oh yeah, and should we throw out Proverbs, Ecc., and Song of Songs, because of how Solomon ended up?)Brother Todd, I hope you are able to realize the truth of God and seek after truth that costs.. "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."

I find this bit of Scripture from Hebrews is most helpful:"Therefore holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess".Hebrews 3:1That said, whether or not that is a "different discussion", this is the point that I wished to forward, that I find it most distressing that a racist and sodomite like Parham is bandied about as a "Pentecostal leader".To be a pentecostal has a VERY firm grounding in Holy Scripture AND in church history. Brother Gaston Cashwell , an early white pentocostal leader repented of his racism AT AZUSA, and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Parham did not.

To be a pentecostal has a VERY firm grounding in Holy Scripture AND in church history. To be a Christian has a VERY firm grounding in Holy Scripture AND in church history.

I'm going to choose my words very carefully because Greg is very ready to delete a post of mine that does not "have the right spirit" , which is what he told me in a letter of admonishment.To read of the relationship between Seymour and Parham the scholarship is there, forgive me, I am not near my library at this moment. As for the other, you can utilize google.They doctrinal error of Parham in latter years, preaching British-Israelism is a very serious strain of apostasy, and one I am personally very sensitive of. So sensitive, that I really don't care to read of the teachings of Martin Luther. I was raised a Jew, and I cannot tell you how many Jews have been kept from salvation knowledge of Jesus Christ, because our teachers would say, "you want to see the heart of Protestantism, read Martin Luther anti-semitic comments.so they read Martin Luther, and they don't see Jesus, they see the vituperative bile of Martin Luther. They don't see the ultimate justification and sanctification of the Cross, they don't see the Beauty of a faith that encompases ALL PEOPLE, a ministry of reconciliation that transcends all the partisanship and human roadblocks to the love of God for His people....and when I say "His people", I mean ALL of creation.Do you know what I mean?

I don't think this is a topic to be focused that much on but I would like to bring about some more positive sides of such occourances and allow people to see how not all such occourences are bad or to be debunked.I know that we can't focus on this topic too much although i can't help but feel we have some what strayed off the topic in question. All i want to know is others opinions on this subject. My pastor is often 'doing carpet time' and is so touched with the spirit. I on the other hand have only experienced it once (see previous post), Does that mean im not being touch by the spirit as often or in the mannor i should? These are just thought provoking questions and i would be interested in the responses. It's something always expected in our church and because it's the only one i have ever been to i would like to know how others feel on this topic. :-) In his love, Geraldine.

I'm going to choose my words very carefully because Greg is very ready to delete a post of mine that does not "have the right spirit" , which is what he told me in a letter of admonishment.I see the only reason to share this with the public is that you are upset or thinking my words were unappropriate towards the manner and way you use the forum. Personally I am not seeing much grace in your posts you are quick to cut down and condemn men of God that many on these forums admire and have been blessed by. The main purpose of these forums are to edify the body of Christ. I hope that is your intent in being on the forums if its not then you should question "why am I here posting and spending my time?". I am sorry to come down hard on you but there is quite abit of vested interest in the forums by many long-standing members and I am trying to assure that this stays a plausible resource to be on this site.To read of the relationship between Seymour and Parham the scholarship is there, forgive me, I am not near my library at this moment. As for the other, you can utilize google.Thats really not good enough, I think it would be better to not say comments unless backed by substantial proof. Even if proof is there is it worth while to expose or is it picking at something that is trying to ruin the fruits of the labour of a man of God.