Another Message to the USA Church ...

... but this one is just straight up teaching ... But rest assured, no matter how God is talking to us in the U.S. ... He's after our sincere repentance ...Rom.12[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. [2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.Transforming the Natural mindby: CH Fisher It is important to discover what is wrong with the American church? Since the church is made up of people, we could ask, "What's wrong with professing Christians in America?" To get at the root of the problem, we must not concentrate on the symptoms. I could spend the whole of this article describing symptoms, but I would never get to the diagnosis of the problem. The symptoms include materialism, sexual promiscuousness and indecency, apathy, complacency, false doctrine and a plethora of other ailments. However, alcohol consumption, and not reckless driving, should be considered the reason why a drunkard has an automobile accident. Likewise, there is a base reason why the American Church is careening down the path to certain disaster.We know that the Church is reckless, flirting with the world system and sin, and has lost its moral authority and spiritual power, but why? Why, when there are so many church buildings, so many Christian periodicals, books, radio and television ministries, Christian organizations, music and an abundance of Bibles and preachers? The vehicle seems sound, but the person behind the wheel is out of control. We need to know the thing that has intoxicated the spirit of professing Christians to make them cross the dividing line and ease onto the path of certain apostasy.First of all, we should recognize that there is but one root cause for all our sins and that principle never changes. We could name all the sins that we commit, deal with them one by one, and never get to the root and nothing really helpful would be accomplished. The root cause of our sin is us. We can look about us at the terrible, encroaching influence of evil, but the answer is found within us. Ian Thomas once wrote, "People repent over sins without repenting over their sin. Sins are what you do, and sin is what you are."As a pastor and former evangelist, I have witnessed first hand many people repenting over their sins without repenting over their sin. Sometimes, they were just sorry that they got caught. Other time they were under genuine conviction, but were unwilling to change. They had the desire to change, but as Charles Finney said, "Desire is not the same thing as willingness."The sin, which is our condition, is much harder to deal with than sins, which are the fruit or actions of our condition. We will feel sorry and repent over what we have done so much quicker than we will repent of our sinful condition. A person's sinful condition is intertwined with who they are. It involves their personality, their intellect, their deepest and shallowest lusts and desires, their decision-making process, their philosophy of life, God and other people. It also involves their concept of right and wrong, sin and punishment, and the consequences of being caught. It also involves what they believe are their rights and what means that they are justified to use to satisfy their sense of entitlements.Finally, our sinful condition involves our lack of understanding God's word, or misunderstanding it, and our degree of spirituality. Aberrant doctrines stem from people trying to justify the sinful condition and make peace with the fleshly mind. As Christians we should realize that there can be no peace with the carnal mind when we surrender to God. He is going to transform the carnal mind, infuse it with His Divine Nature, challenge every speck of rebellion and root out the cause of sin. If we do not believe this, then we have to accept a false doctrine. This and other doctrines like it gives the person with a sinful condition the right to commit sins without change.We should know by now that for many people the outward appearance is a covering for an inner condition of sinfulness. Once the ingredients of the sinful mixture rise to the surface, sins are the result. The individual may become sorry and pray repentance with tears and apparent brokenness. Not just the sinful acts must be repented over, but the state of sin that caused them. If not, when the conviction is soothed and the smile returns, the state of the inner person will begin boiling once more with sin. Sooner or later it will erupt again into sinful activity.The longer the sinful state is allowed to remain unchanged, the more frequent sins will occur and with lessening degrees of conviction. The danger is in reaching the callused state to where no repentance is possible because no conviction can be effected.The Desensitized ConscienceInside of many professing Christians in America simmers a cauldron of sin. People may appear on the surface to be totally consumed with God, yet many are committing terrible sins and they are being exposed. The exposure of sins will only desensitize the conscience if the sinner does not completely repent and make a complete inside change. Unrepentant sin among Church leaders even causes the general conscience of the Church to become callused. I believe that we all know someone that we trusted in who has committed unthinkable sins. Our faith is pounded by revelation of sin in some highly visible Christian leader. We go into shock and our faith is shaken because we trusted in him or her. Some people even abandon Christianity and turn back to the world system. This is because they depended too much on the outward appearances of other people to inspire them.After enough of these fiascos are exposed, people adapt the attitude of, "Oh well, everyone makes mistakes." Our nation as a whole is so desensitized to sin that the majority condoned one of the most sinful presidents our nation has ever had. When the sense of moral shame and outrage are gone, the sinful condition becomes simply our private cross to bear. God’s word declares that the sinful condition as the major reason that people will be cast into hell. We cannot afford to ignore sinfulness and we should be especially careful in this time of great apostasy and deception.The American Church is deeply sinful. When I say "church," I mean the physical church, the one that we see on earth, not necessarily the one in heaven. I may as well go on to explain that the physical Church is composed of professing and possessing Christians. The professors outnumber the possessors, maybe ten to one, but I don't really know the exact ratio. Professors are those who claim to be Christians, but possessors are people who are actually committed to Christ.Sin is unchallenged and unexplained for the most part in the American Church. Some churches have given up altogether on enunciating sin and have just accepted it as a normal condition for most Christians. These churches condone homosexuality, drunkenness, vulgar speech, and all manner of worldliness, just to mention a few things. Many Christians want the church service to be a mass therapy session where they unload their guilt and sooth the conviction in what remains of their conscience. The unchallenged sin in the leaders and the masses is causing a deep slide into the type of moral inaptitude that causes apostasy.Several years ago, a pastor hired a night club stripper wearing nothing but a G-string to serve communion. He claimed that he wanted to boost the attendance. It must have been the male attendance that he wanted to boost or else he was afflicted with lust himself. This pastor is typical of the mindset that is in control of the inner person of most professing Christians. It is an "ends justifies the means" mentality that has plunged the leadership of the Church into the depths of depravityWe can explain that the American Church is sick, weak, and on the verge of dying because she is in a deep state of sin, but is that the source of the problem? We could declare that the American Church is desensitized to sinfulness, but is this the problem? These may be the causes of many of her symptoms, but neither is the true source of the problem. A disease, illness, injury or deficiency produces symptoms. We want to know the spiritual cause of the symptoms in this case. We did not list all the symptoms, or sins, because they are not really the issue here. We need to discover the real problem, the deep problem, the root cause, of the American Church's sinful state. To get at that problem we have to discover what causes the state of sin, which produces sins.The Cause of the State of SinThe cause of the state of sin in the American Church could be that most professing Christians have lost their fear and wonder of God. If you have read this far you may be somewhat disappointed. Pastors are expected to rail against the symptoms until they offend everyone and make those who stay to the bitter end feel as lost as hell. To explain that all our problems may be traced to the fact that we have lost our fear and wonder of God is too simplistic for many people.But it is true. We are too familiar and cavalier with the gifts of God and too complacent about His blessings. We believe that we are overly deserving of His benefits and take for granted that He will provide for and protect us no matter what we do. There are no catastrophic dangers looming on the horizon and unless we get in deep trouble, we will not communicate with Him or worship Him deeply. In fact, I would hazard to guess that most professing Christians spend less than five minutes each day in prayer and seldom read or study the Bible. I would go further to suggest that most professing Christians do not think about or thank God during the day.To such people, He is always there, like the fire extinguisher, only when we need Him do we turn to Him. He provides a world to live in and if nothing major changes in our world for the worst, we will draw life from Him with little or no acknowledgment.But we must dig deeper yet. Something caused the wonder and fear of God to depart, so there must still be a cause that we have not yet discovered here. Yes, there is something or some thing's that remain to be exposed. Whatever caused the wonder and fear of God to wane or completely die is definitely what we are seeking now. Was it a doctrine, practice, or a condition?The thing that caused the wonder and fear to depart is a condition that in turn causes a practice that eventually gives birth to doctrine. The deep root cause of America's sin is the unchallenged and unchanged carnal condition, the natural state of the person, the condition that Jesus came to defeat and destroy.A. W. Tozer explains it most clearly in an article entitled "The Old Cross and the New." He writes that the new cross came to lift us to a higher state, to make us a better version of what we are. But the old cross came to kill us. We are liquidated by the old cross and then raised in newness of life.The fact of the matter is that a new cross with another Jesus has brought in a new Christianity. It is a Christianity that does not challenge the carnal nature of the people who claim to be Christians. The unchanging state of natural humanity causes them to lose the fear and wonder of God, if they ever possessed it in the first place. Romans 8 declares that, "…the carnal mind cannot please God because it is an enemy against God." The new Christianity attempts to merge the old nature with the new instead of discarding it. We cannot develop a spiritual relationship with God and nourish our old state back to life at the same time. That would be like trying to start a fire and spraying the wood with water at the same time. We have to get on one path or the other, but we cannot travel both the wide and narrow path, both the crooked and straight road.There is no way possible that the church in America can continue to mix the leaven of the world system into the process of Christianity without baking bread of apostasy as the result. Oh, I know very well what some people will say upon reading my last statement. "He's a legalist!" They will declare, "He is a Holy Roller and a judgmental person!" Well, the old-time holiness people didn't have the message that far off the mark, even if their method stunk. In the same sense we cannot disallow the truth just because someone tried to ram it down our throats.My opposition to the holiness movement was that they carried their message too far to the other extreme. The answer to antinomianism is not asceticism. We cannot expect to kill flesh by human means when God has proved that it cannot be done. It took a spotless Lamb and an old rugged cross to kill the flesh and the cross is the only flesh-killer today. Mummifying ourselves with laws and rules will kill everything, including flesh and spirit. It is comparable to getting rid of a cancer on the face with a stick of dynamite. We will be more prone to sin after experiencing the constricting force of legalism than before.No one will be free from flesh unless they are willing from the depths of their heart to submit to the work of the cross and depart from sinfulness. But the work of the cross is not just the work of Jesus' cross. Jesus did not say, "Take up My cross one day and follow Me." He said that we must take up our cross daily (scripture reference). He is not implying that we should get saved daily by His cross, but that we must die daily on our cross. He died on His cross, now He tells us that we should also have a cross to die on.His cross did away with the law of sin and death. The law of "sin and death" was exemplified in the Mosaic Law. Each sin required a death; a person sinned, and an animal died. Sin and death, they sinned and something died. Our cross is the consistent, daily submission to the work of His cross. It is the deepening surrender to His will and way and that is what makes us Christians. Drawing nearer to Him daily causes certain desires and lusts to die in us, puts our old sinful state into a condition of death, and keeps us from re-entering the past to pick up where we left off. When we do this, the old nature rises up in us and destroys the fear and wonder of God. It does this by causing a sinful state that produces acts of sinfulness or sins.This is more than simply putting the old nature with its sinful desires in a prison of legalism. It is an execution, a liquidation of self so that His image might be formed in us. Only in the transformation of the carnal nature can death to these sinful desires be complete. This leads us to the cause of the old nature rising up in us. It takes us deeper into the root of the problem of what is wrong with the American Church.The Carnal NatureWhat causes the old nature to resurface, to reassert itself, to reestablish the carnal character, and reassume traveling the course of the world system? We have been taught by certain false teachers that carnal nature was caused by the original sin that Adam committed, but was it? If the sin that Adam committed caused the carnal nature, what nature did Adam have before he sinned? If it was the spiritual nature, then he would not have sinned. The propensity to sin is intrinsic in the human nature, but that doesn't make us sinners. Obeying the sinful desires causes us to be sinful. The carnal nature is the natural state of a person and must have been the nature of Adam before and after the fall. After the fall, Adam in was in a sinful condition that developed from obeying the desires of the carnal nature. It is possible to have a carnal nature and still be a Christian, but it is not possible to be in a sinful condition and continue to enjoy immunity from the judgement and wrath of God. Carnal means fleshly or natural. We continue to have a natural or carnal mind after salvation.The sinful state of humanity, not the carnal nature, is the result of the original sin that Adam committed. Sin is intrinsic in the human nature and obeying it causes the sinful condition. Jesus' blood washes away the sins and He recreates us as a new creature in Him. However, we still retained the propensity to sin. This means that we can be restored to the condition before the fall and still commit a sin. Adam was a sinless man with a carnal nature and a pure condition, but he still sinned.But I don't want to sin and neither should any Christian. I find myself in a struggle such as Paul explained in Romans seven. It is a struggle, a battle with the old nature that I thought was dead. Is it revived? How did it come to life if I died and my life is hidden with Christ in God? Do I have to live with it all of my life? The old nature did not come back to life, but instead the carnal nature still remains after the salvation. Let me explain.The fact is that a new, recreated, cleansed, and made whole human nature is still a human nature. Being changed into the condition of the human nature before the fall has indeed delivered us from our sinful condition, but we continue to have a human or carnal nature. There must be an answer to the question; "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?" In other words, salvation did not free me from my natural nature. Therefore, it did not free me from temptation and the proclivity to sin. I still feel sinful desire rising up in me that must be cast down. I still recognize lust in me and still contemplate disobeying God. I still feel the dictates of the flesh even though I know I'm not the rebellious sinner that I was before He saved me.What will God give me or do to me that I can be free from the intrinsic characteristics of sin in my nature? Can I bind myself tightly with cords of rules and laws until I constrict the life of sin from my flesh? Will I destroy the desires and lusts of the natural mind by surrendering to the law of sin and death again? Will asceticism free me? The answer is, no. It will suppress sin, but not free us from its touch.We will destroy flesh with legalism all right, but the acceptable qualities of the human nature will die as well. We will lose our compassion, our love, our mercy, and we will scowl our way through life fearing His judgement, but not knowing His presence.Paul answers the question of how to be free from the sin in our nature in Romans eight. "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death."People tend to view chapter markers as walls and fences. One cannot stop at the end of Chapter Seven without becoming either a legalist or an apostate. Unless one enters Eighth chapter and discovers the answer, the question will be answered falsely or not answered at all.What is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus? We must turn to Hebrews ten for the answer.16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," Heb 10:16 (NKJV)This is the new covenant that the prophet Jeremiah prophesied about in Jeremiah 31. The Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is the Holy Spirit and that is without a doubt. That is the Spirit that quickened His mortal body, caused Him to rise from the dead, and that lives in every true Christian. The Spirit's law is the nature of God that is written in our minds by His law. Paul said in Romans 7 that there is a law of God in his mind as well. Therefore, the law of the Spirit of life is the same law that was written into the Ten Commandments.Oh boy! Now we've really done it! We've put people back under the law! Not so!The Ten Commandments is not the Mosaic Law, but the law of God. The Mosaic Law was the schoolmaster that forced the people to obey the law of God. We are not under the schoolmaster, the Mosaic Law, but we will never get out from under the law of God. To teach that we have been set free from the law of God is to teach lawlessness.Lawlessness leads to apostasy and is condemnable to eternal death. We cannot declare ourselves from the law of God without entering a state of licentiousness and apostasy that impugns the body and blood of Christ Jesus. The law of God, as expressed in the Ten Commandments, is the general expression of the Divine Nature of God.With this final point I believe that I will get to the heart of the problem with the American church. Of course there are problems with Christianity elsewhere in the world, but I expect the pastors in those countries to deal with the issues there. I am called to America.God's law is the Holy Spirit's law. Therefore, the law of the Spirit of life is a composition of the elements of God's Divine Nature. We can see this clearly by reading Galatians 5: 22-23 and 2 Peter 1:3-10. The Holy Spirit comes into to us to teach the recreated human nature how to think as Christ. His mission is to teach and train our minds until our minds are transformed into replicas of the mind of Christ. Therefore, He will work on every section of the proclivity to sin that is resident in our human nature. He will erase by His instruction every sinful flaw. He does this by constantly giving us knowledge and wisdom throughout our conscious moments. When we accept the information and apply it through our actions, we are allowing and participating in the change of our human nature.The Work of the Holy SpiritIt is the Holy Spirit that effects the work of our cross. David Wilkerson once wrote something to the effect, "We cannot crucify ourselves. We could nail one hand, but then there would be no way to nail the other one. The Holy Spirit must crucify us."Every bout with temptation or error produces a lesson from the Holy Spirit. Step by step, increment by increment, He changes our minds in a process, the speed of which is only regulated by our willingness to permit and receive His input. Much can be written on this subject, but I must limit my remarks to the issues at hand so that I can stay close to the original topic. I will expound more deeply on the work of the Holy Spirit in another article.The problem with the American Church is that the Holy Spirit has been limited to a positive emotional experience, a feel-good feeling, and therefore He is misidentified. Every time excitement, joy, or laughter or some other intense emotion is felt in a church service, people identify them as moves of the Holy Spirit. That's the Charismatic/Pentecostal side of the issue. On the liturgical side, the Holy Spirit is thought to be in the ritual, tradition or even the practice of attending the church service.Few professing Christians really know who the Holy Spirit is, what His purpose is, or how He is manifested to us. The Charismatic/Pentecostals have become too cavalier with Him and the liturgical denominations limit Him to a doctrine that is believed without being experienced, or a ritual. To know Him personally and sense His continual presence, they know not. They miss the essence of spirituality and the key to being a member of Christ's body and of each other.More than rules and regulations, more than rituals and doctrines, more than emotions and other activities, He is a real entity that must be accepted, loved and respected. Because He is not known, neither is God known. Because He is not respected, neither is God respected. Because He is not loved, neither is God loved. Because He is not in the heart, the mind and soul, He is not able to transform the human nature. The Holy Spirit is not able to inspire and insinuate a sense of God's presence that is vital to defend ourselves against temptation and Satan's influence that works though the world system.The problem with the American Church is that it has no sense of God in the soul, no understanding of His deep things, no grasping of the blazing concept and reality of Him that can only come through spiritual means. Therefore, they are easily distracted with vanity and shallowness. Everything that glitters in the world turns their heads and causes them to wonder after the temporal while within their reach are the overwhelming riches of God.No wonder that they are not satisfied with the goodness from God! It is no wonder since their hearts are overcharged with the vanity of temporal life and their spirits full of the pleasure of sin. Without the great connection, there is a great separation. When no awe and wonder develop, there is no true sense of God. God becomes a magic charm, a lucky word, a good idea that charms the heart but does not win it to full surrender.Stricken with this destitution, the American Church has turned to substitutions for the sense of God's presence. There are the massive and beautiful buildings, the great choirs, the worship bands, the entertaining activities, the joke-filled messages, the pop psychology and other secular bad ideas interwoven into the sermons. We see the sultry women singers and dancers, the laughing spirits, barking as dogs, howling as wolves, mooing as cows, and otherwise making utter fools of themselves. Then there is the materialism and pronouncement of godhood by the prosperity teachers.The liturgical denominations are not exempt. Not long ago, the Presbyterians had a New Age woman's convention full of witchcraft and disorder. Some major denominations ordain homosexuals and lesbians.Then there is the American Church’s facination and obsession with false doctrines that are promoted by movies costing millions of dollars and written into fictional books, such as Tim LaHayes "Left Behind" series. Christian periodicals promote false doctrine and false people. Some of the articles promote blasphemy. Christian bookstores are filled with fiction, romance novels and Christian trivia priced higher than gold in most cases, but no better in quality than cheap flea market junk.Next, the media of television is almost completely controlled by apostate Christians. Even Christians who should know better go on the programs with apostates, mingling their spirits and lending an air of credibility to their destructiveness. When I see someone do this, I can have no respect for his or her ministry afterward. It is a form of spiritual prostitution, only they prostitute the good name and reputation that the Lord God built them.Finally, there is the problem of Christian music. Some of it is okay, but most of it is worthless. You will never find a greater depiction of the current apostasy anywhere clearer than you will find it in the Christian music section of any retailer. Demonic people have been invited to "minister" to the last two generations of youth and the fruit of that is now appearing. It is a plague on spirituality, morality and decency. All one has to do to discover the depth of this deception is to visit a Christian Bookstore and browse though the selections of Christian music. Transformation or DeathThe longer that the carnal mind goes untransformed, the more difficult it becomes to transform it. After a season of hardening the carnal mind to change, the death of spirituality will be complete. It is no wonder to me that the current crop of false teachers and preachers have no conscience and therefore manifests no remorse or conviction concerning their deception. They are polished speakers and very skilled in public relations, but they carry a message of death.Most professing Christians in America cannot recognize false from true because their senses are not exercised to know good from evil. The Holy Spirit has been rejected from working in their lives. They have the knowledge of falseness, but cannot grasp the knowledge of the truth. In fact, many have lost their love for the truth because the Spirit of Truth has not been permitted to bring them to a proper understanding and acceptance of truth. May God help people to realize that Christianity is not about joining an institution, but becoming part of an organism. Not only that, they must understand that it is a spiritual organism called the Body of Christ. He will conform everyone to Himself and there are no exceptions. Unless we accept this truth, we will not understand exactly what is required of us as true Christians.Also;Why are Christians losing America?http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28562

Rahman,Excellent, excellent article! It would take me a whole page to recopy statements and paragraphs with my own added comments- but here are some.I have tried to go over and over in my mind, a way to explain to people that neither the charasmatics nor the other side (maybe the doctrinal theologians/liturgical) have this down. They just do not get it.Last Sunday we visited a church which was, I would say "doctrinally sound"- yet they relied on wisdom and knowledge to overcome sin. They believed you had to "fight" all the time and read many things to keep yourself from sinning.The error of this was just as wrong as some churches who may be mixing with the world. They did not understand this power of the Holy Spirit in us to renew our minds and our hearts. You take away all of the Holy Spirit's power if you say that "you" must do such and such". If Christ is indeed living in you- then by all means you WILL be changed by and by. If we doubt that we will be changed and that we must put man made rules on ourselves- then we do not trust the work of the Holy Spirit working in us. Or we do not believe that we will heed the conviction that falls on us when He is trying to tell us something right away.To me it is so simple. I don't have to try. I don't have to do anything but let Him live his will out in me. If He is increasing in me- (which means that "I" am dying off daily)- then who will be running my life? Who will be making the decisions? Him. Not me. As we mature this is more and more evident.A. W. Tozer explains it most clearly in an article entitled "The Old Cross and the New." He writes that the new cross came to lift us to a higher state, to make us a better version of what we are. But the old cross came to kill us. We are liquidated by the old cross and then raised in newness of life.The fact of the matter is that a new cross with another Jesus has brought in a new Christianity. It is a Christianity that does not challenge the carnal nature of the people who claim to be Christians. The unchanging state of natural humanity causes them to lose the fear and wonder of God, if they ever possessed it in the first place. Romans 8 declares that, "…the carnal mind cannot please God because it is an enemy against God." The new Christianity attempts to merge the old nature with the new instead of discarding it. We cannot develop a spiritual relationship with God and nourish our old state back to life at the same time. That would be like trying to start a fire and spraying the wood with water at the same time. We have to get on one path or the other, but we cannot travel both the wide and narrow path, both the crooked and straight road.Excellent!This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," Heb 10:16 (NKJV)This whole thing he wrote about the law being written on our hearts and the work of the holy Spirit are such excellent points. I can not tell you how many times that my thoughts and reasonings come straight from the wisdom of the Holy Spirt with out me even knowing it. I may say something or put a thought down and then someone will find a verse or verses that are the same- even though I have no real knowledge or memorization of those verses. This should be the case for every regenerated believer- we should have the mind of Christ. We should be becoming less of ourselves and more of Him in all ways.It is the Holy Spirit that effects the work of our cross. David Wilkerson once wrote something to the effect, "We cannot crucify ourselves. We could nail one hand, but then there would be no way to nail the other one. The Holy Spirit must crucify us."Every bout with temptation or error produces a lesson from the Holy Spirit. Step by step, increment by increment, He changes our minds in a process, the speed of which is only regulated by our willingness to permit and receive His input.So much good stuff here! I am exhausted of trying to find ways to explain how easy it is to understand the christian life (though the path is narrow and rough) to all sides (whether it be charasmatic or liturgical or whatever.) Everyone seems to want to make it so complicated and find more and more methods, rules, do's, don'ts, rights and wrongs.It is simple. The church in America (maybe in other places too)is trying to "live"- instead of die- as well as profess to be Christians. You can't have both. He is either Lord of ALL(in every single area of your life, mind, heart, soul) or He is not Lord at all.In Him, Chanin

Brother Rahman, Thankyou. I kept copying paragraphs to comment on, yet the next one outweighed the prior ones. So I am left with this quote:Most professing Christians in America cannot recognize false from true because their senses are not exercised to know good from evil. The Holy Spirit has been rejected from working in their lives. They have the knowledge of falseness, but cannot grasp the knowledge of the truth. In fact, many have lost their love for the truth because the Spirit of Truth has not been permitted to bring them to a proper understanding and acceptance of truth.The Spirit will give you discernment according to Scripture. He will give you the grace neccessary to discern between good and evil. This is a promise, yet few know the Scripture and listen to Him who is able to overcome this world. Few are willing to listen daily. I do not exclude myself from this fallen church. My own wicked heart stumbles into unbelief. I rationalize my failures by comparing myself to others. It is all sin. The voice in you will show you the ugliness of your carnal ways. The voice in you will also show you the door that you must enter everyday. For the few times that I have entered in, the goodness of God overwhelmed me. His ways teach us the truth. To experience the truth is to taste the grace that changes one's life. His life is the only means by which men are saved from their carnal ways.In ChristJeff

Amen Sister Chanin and Brother Jeff ... The Holy Spirit used this brother to bring it right down front didn't He? ... This is the part that really jumped out at me ...--- The problem with the American Church is that the Holy Spirit has been limited to a positive emotional experience, a feel-good feeling, and therefore He is misidentified. Every time excitement, joy, or laughter or some other intense emotion is felt in a church service, people identify them as moves of the Holy Spirit. That's the Charismatic/Pentecostal side of the issue. On the liturgical side, the Holy Spirit is thought to be in the ritual, tradition or even the practice of attending the church service.Few professing Christians really know who the Holy Spirit is, what His purpose is, or how He is manifested to us. The Charismatic/Pentecostals have become too cavalier with Him and the liturgical denominations limit Him to a doctrine that is believed without being experienced, or a ritual. To know Him personally and sense His continual presence, they know not. They miss the essence of spirituality and the key to being a member of Christ's body and of each other. ---i look forward to God's own appointed time, and He does, as in all fazes of human history, have His own appointed time, when He will re-introduce Himself to His (American) Church ... Only God knows the day and the hour when He'll send His Revival, in the meanwhile all we can do is "let not our hearts be troubled", and keep praying for a "new demonstration of Christianity" ...

Then there is the American Church’s facination and obsession with false doctrines that are promoted by movies costing millions of dollars and written into fictional books, such as Tim LaHayes "Left Behind" series. Christian periodicals promote false doctrine and false people. Some of the articles promote blasphemy. Christian bookstores are filled with fiction, romance novels and Christian trivia priced higher than gold in most cases, but no better in quality than cheap flea market junk.what part of the left behind series promotes a false doctrine and what doctrine is that?Just curious, I've read 11 of them and will get started on the last one later this week so I'm kinda curious.Next, the media of television is almost completely controlled by apostate Christians. Even Christians who should know better go on the programs with apostates, mingling their spirits and lending an air of credibility to their destructiveness. When I see someone do this, I can have no respect for his or her ministry afterward. It is a form of spiritual prostitution, only they prostitute the good name and reputation that the Lord God built them.Earlier you spoke about people feeling disenfranchised by or leaving the faith because of the sins of trusted ministers coming to light. How is your lack of respect for a minister who commits spiritual prositution justified then? I mean because of that one incident is it fair to completely disregard whatever message that person has as false from that point? What if God has a message for us from that person that we miss out on because of that one incident? I'm not saying it it right but would it not be prudent that we all test the messages we receive through God's messengers by GOd's word to validate it rather than writing it off? My experience is that God teaches using the most unlikely people, usually these people have had falls or trials in their lives so that they don't look high and mighty but rather we can connect with them and their message because we share experiences.I read your whole post and I must admit there were things in there that I learned for the first time and other I knew about but have been ignoring though God has been resending those messages to me. I have observed this apostate state of the church but always saw it as being a sign of the time and didn't really try to investigate to find out the root cause which turns out to be the same reason why I myself and others continue to sin, lack of awe and wonder in Godthank you for your post

just a couple of other things I forgot to ask about. If the root of our struggle with sin is a lack or loss of wonder in GOd, how do we go about regaining that feeling? how can we get back that same fire we had when we first belived?Finally, there is the problem of Christian music. Some of it is okay, but most of it is worthless. You will never find a greater depiction of the current apostasy anywhere clearer than you will find it in the Christian music section of any retailer. Demonic people have been invited to "minister" to the last two generations of youth and the fruit of that is now appearing. It is a plague on spirituality, morality and decency. All one has to do to discover the depth of this deception is to visit a Christian Bookstore and browse though the selections of Christian music.what is it about the music that makes it worthless? is it the content or quality perhaps? What sort of apostasies (if that is a word) have sprung from this worthless music and who are the perpetrators or what should we be looking out for?

Greeting Ironman, you posted;--- what part of the left behind series promotes a false doctrine and what doctrine is that?Just curious, I've read 11 of them and will get started on the last one later this week so I'm kinda curious. ---i didn't write this Message To America, a brother named CH Fisher did ... below you will find the link to the actual article site, the Truthkeeper's home site, and brother Fisher's e-mail address, so you can "e" him regarding his actual meanings ... http://www.truthkeepers.com/transfor.htmhttp://www.truthkeepers.com/index.htmcfisher@triad.rr.comBut in the meanwhile i'll share with you what i get from what he's written ...i've not read any of the Left Behind books, but i've seen two of the movies, but only after careful reading of the actual Revelation of John itself ... The false doctrine/teaching that this brother may be refering to may have to do with his own personal belief in the rapture, pre-trib, mid trib, post trib, when will it will occur ... Many saints strain at the gnat of this doctrinal hobby horse and will entertain real hostile attitude toward other saints who have a different view, while swallowing the whole camel of not putting first Christ view of how we're supposed to treat one another in love ...The other thing he may be refering to, which i also greatly wonder about, is why so many saints will read, and view all kinds of media about the Revelation, but won't read the actual Revelation itself ... Often times in order to make things entertaining in media, and/or profitable, artistic liscence may not be governed by the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit, so that as i have personally witnessed, some saints take the book, or movie, to actually portray what the Bible really says ...Have you read the Revelation yourself? ... If not may i admonish you to ask the Holy Spirit to guide you, and teach you thru it's reading ... AmenYou also posted;--- Earlier you spoke about people feeling disenfranchised by or leaving the faith because of the sins of trusted ministers coming to light. How is your lack of respect for a minister who commits spiritual prositution justified then? I mean because of that one incident is it fair to completely disregard whatever message that person has as false from that point? What if God has a message for us from that person that we miss out on because of that one incident? I'm not saying it it right but would it not be prudent that we all test the messages we receive through God's messengers by God's word to validate it rather than writing it off? My experience is that God teaches using the most unlikely people, usually these people have had falls or trials in their lives so that they don't look high and mighty but rather we can connect with them and their message because we share experiences. ---You won't get an argument from me on this point, as i'm not one to condemn anyone topermanent disuse by God because they may have fallen in sin ... If that was the case i myself would now be of no use to God because of my own past errors, although true i'm not famous ... The Bible is full of fallen saints who repented, and God just kept right on using them, Davis as example ... Your experience has been my experience also, as i am surely one of those "unlikely" people, and because of it see others miss His message to them quite often ... i've prayed the Holy Spirit that as soon as i'm so quick to reject someone, that He convict me forthwith to cease and listen ... For as soon as i begin to hear a person the Holy Spirit will reveal to me if it's of Him ... That's my own personal belief on this matter ...You also posted;--- I have observed this apostate state of the church but always saw it as being a sign of the time and didn't really try to investigate to find out the root cause which turns out to be the same reason why I myself and others continue to sin, lack of awe and wonder in God ---Now this struck me as most interesting because i've heard so many other saints say this about the apostate condition of the Church "it's a sign of the times", like it's supposed to happen, it has to happen, and so therefore there's nothing any of us can do about it ... In the 60's there was a phrase for this kind of thinking in my view, and it's this "that's a cop out"! ... I hear and deal with this type of defeatist attitude from saints all the time ... i find it extremely sad ...You also posted;--- just a couple of other things I forgot to ask about. If the root of our struggle with sin is a lack or loss of wonder in God, how do we go about regaining that feeling? How can we get back that same fire we had when we first believed? ---Now that's the $64,000 dollar question, and i've come to the conclusion that God Himself only, has the answer, and formula to such a re-awakening, to such a revival towards our regaining such wonder ... i don't know how believers lose awe, fear and respect for God, maybe a great deal of it has to do with, as an old saint told me once, our new found hyper expectation of Him as Christ Genie - the cosmic Santa Claus, instead of Christ Jesus, our risen Lord and Savior ... All i know is that i'll be happy to see Him do whatever's necessary to wake us all up that He's still God, alive and well, and still in control of all things ... Finally you posted;--- what is it about the music that makes it worthless? is it the content or quality perhaps? What sort of apostasies (if that is a word) have sprung from this worthless music and who are the perpetrators or what should we be looking out for? ---i can answer this like so ... i'm 54, but when i was in my late teens, 20's, 30's, i'd hear a Pop/R&B tune and i'd say, "Wow, that sounds like Church/Gospel music" ... Thru my 40's, and now in my early 50's i hear a Church/Gospel tune, and even more than ever i say to myself, "Wow, that sounds like a Pop/R&B or Rap tune" ... For me, this reversal is alarming, but then to most young saints today i'm old, passe, un-hip, and not with it ... There once was a time, not that long ago, when Church/Gospel music was so righteously distinctive in it's music and words the secular music industry wanted nothing to do with it, now it's become know as a Genre, making big money, with it's own shows, and this new type of Gospel music has become so diluted within the American-African community, and Church, that it's included on, and within the same music award shows that house that filthy Rap-crap, in my estimation the most diabolical and demonic music to ever hit this planet, even more so than Heavy Metal ... The reason i say this is that Heavy Metal although full of satan worship and necrophilia, only appealed to a certain limited youth audience, no so Rap ... It appeals to youth in ALL cutures, races, socio-economic groups, and nations ... Satan scored a mega killer of youth when hebirthed the Hip Hop culture from his vile cauldron, and i find it unbelievable that there is Christian Rap, but like i said i'm a legalist, old fogy, so what do i know ... i find it all truly amazing how fast satan has polluted the things of Christ in this country in the last 50 years, and am as equally dismayed by the apathetic blindness of so many believers ...

ohhh ok I see. well I see what you mean about how some of us will read the novels rather than the source itself. I have read the revelation and it is a very gripping book. there has not been another book in the bible that has so captivated me to the point of it becoming all I read at one time. I had been warned of that by a friend of mine and then when this happened, God showed me that I was neglecting various daily tasks concerning myself with understanding this book. God's whole deal with me was that I should know revelation well but I also had work I needed to do every day and I needed to tend to that. Also in doing the work that GOd has for me daily, I will be in a position to understand whatever is going on as God reveals it to me on a need to know basis as it relates to the porphetic books. Perhaps when people read about characters who are battling with same problems they are it makes it easier to understand things. I have also observed that in Jesus dealings with people He was never cynical and although he knew what was on their minds and hearts, He listened to them. There are some people who I during the time I was around them I wanted to tune them out but God would whisper in my ear to listen to them. In some cases I have found that they had the same questions that I had for God but that I never thought to ask and upon asking God, I received answers. I believe nothing happens by chance and that if we would just take a moment and look for what GOd has for us in any situation things would be so much better.I was basing my statement on the apostate state of the church on how the prophetic books speak of the church as being asleep when Jesus returns. Was this and incorrect basis for that? If so then what is the meaning of the church being alseep?$64,000 question? surely that question is priceless :) I agree with what you said about God having the formula for that. Many times we do expect God to jump through hoops to make sure our wants are tended to and we forget about our needs and what's really important. I think as far as the music is concerned, that with the increasing cost of making records one has to make something that will sell. It's unfortunate and I can see how it takes away from the authenticity of gospel music. At the same time though because music itself was something God made for himself (depsite how we have perverted it thus far) because it is His, He can use it to reach out to us still. And so christian rap although it may sound like the other crap carries with it a completely different message. it would be one of those unlikely methods of communication empolyed by God.As far as hip hop goes, in it's original state it was not as we know it today. It was music that had a message. of course then someone was influcenced into taking that and perverting it.

Brother Rahman wrote:i'm 54,It is good to see some old people with fire. In ChristJeff

Bro. Jeff you posted,--- It is good to see some old people with fire. ---To God be ALL the glory, now that He's dealt that crippling blow to my "natural man" He's got my full, undivided attention ... Bless Him, He might even deem me worthy one day to call it down! .... '0)

IronMan you posted;--- I have read the revelation and it is a very gripping book. there has not been another book in the bible that has so captivated me to the point of it becoming all I read at one time. ---Ha! ... ha! ... Praise God that you've read the Revelation ... i know exactly what you mean about getting hooked on it ... When i got into it i had charts on my wall, and all sorts of research material toward it's study, towards it's taking apart ... i love the book! ...You also posted;--- Perhaps when people read about characters who are battling with same problems they are it makes it easier to understand things. ---Amen, and amen, and amen again on this point ... The Lord has just taken me thru such a revelationvia one of my favorite OT characters, Jacob ... i love it when the Spirit decides it's time for Him to reveal further truth to me, even tho often times it hurts ... But knowing the truth sets one free, and anyone whom the Lord Jesus Christ sets free, is free indeed ... Being freed by His truth is something that i find so valuable in my maturity, but man did i hate it in my youth ... i'm so glad that my natural man is crippled, i've never felt so free! ... You also posted;--- I believe nothing happens by chance and that if we would just take a moment and look for what GOd has for us in any situation things would be so much better. ---i was told this early in my coming to Jesus, "There is no coincidence in Christ" ... And upon my finally coming to understand that He chose me, and not vise-versa, there's actually been no coincidence in my entire life, for even when i hadn't officially accepted Him as my Lord and Savior, all things prior were working toward my being pulled toward His call ... Mind blowing! ... This thought alone keeps me in awe of our God ...You also posted;--- I was basing my statement on the apostate state of the church on how the prophetic books speak of the church as being asleep when Jesus returns. Was this and incorrect basis for that? If so then what is the meaning of the church being alseep? ---i'm not quite sure what you mean here, i went back thru your posts and couldn't find the context ... But for me i'd not have such a burden for the (American) Church if i percieved us as only "asleep", that is "only" running away from His mandate to proclaiming His Gospel of saving grace, in the highways and byways of Nineveh, but i don't see the (American) Church as asleep, but moreso as drugged, high on the world, intoxicated by all that it has to offer, stupefied on it's entertainment, drunk with it's diverse lusts ... i don't see us as being put under via some satanically induced ether, but caught up on some satanically induced amphetamine ... We're not asleep in the world, we're caught up in the world ... The instantly defensive, rejective attitude i encounter from so many saints when i speak on a subject such as this lets me know we're not asleep ... You also posted; --- And so christian rap although it may sound like the other crap carries with it a completely different message. it would be one of those unlikely methods of communication empolyed by God ---i try my best Ironman to take the same tack on what you've said, but i just can't ... Everytime i encounter some young men doing so called Christian rap in a service i immediately begin to pray ... i hope God is getting glory out of it, but all i see and hear is "world" - "world" - "world"!Lastly you posted;--- As far as hip hop goes, in it's original state it was not as we know it today. It was music that had a message. of course then someone was influcenced into taking that and perverting it. ---As far as i'm concerned it was the devil's music also in it's original state ... i was in my 30's during all of the 80's, in a back slidden condition, and i remember when the pioneers of Hip Hop arrived ... We called it party music, and in retrospect folk today call it "innocent" ... It wasn't even innocent back then for i remember the parties, and all that was associated with it ... Right after 9/11 and just after the war in Afghanistan began the Lord gave me a scathing review, and "word" to Black America, and the Black American Church, regarding this new, so-called music ... It is entitled "Gangsta Rap - God's Final Straw", and it chronicals how satan has used, and groomed, the influence of perverted American-African music to pollute the youth of the world ... It started out Negro spirituals, and has ended up Rap ... Ha! ... ha! ... That didn't win me any popularity contests either ... But by now, ask me if i care ... i don't ... The Lord has groomed me to upset both status quo authority and entrenchment with His Word ... To point blank call out the Emperor's nakedness (if you know that story) ... I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.Notice He didn't say "asleep" ... '0)Our Lord's blessings and added graciousness to you Ironman, and His will be done!

Hey Jeff,54 Ain't old! But if you can remember the $64,000Question, you're getting there.Clutch :-P

$64,000 question? what's that? :)Rahman, I was surprised to hear that you are 54 (or was that 51?) I could not tell by your words that you were not a youngster like the rest of us. :-P you seemed "hip" to me.No really, your wording and your fire must make you seem young.Isn't that funny how age is not much of a factor when you cannot see the other person. Like Greg for instance, if I didn't know he was 25, I would think he was 65 by his posts. haa haa . just kiddin' ya. Sorry, it's been a long day here on the homefront. - I am sure that he would say that by many of my private messages that I was 15. :-? Love to you all, Chanin

Ha! ... ha! .... brother Clutch,i'd say i'm about there because i remember when tv was only in black and white and such shows as "Father Knows Best", and "My little Margie" ... The 50's and early 60's certainly had it's sins, extreme racism being one of them, but times were no where near as diabolical and as blatanly satanic as they are now ... TV programing from then to now certainly attest ... We're now techno-wicked ... One of the reasons i'm now so sold out to the Lord is i'm a part of the generation that opened Pandoras box ... My hippie, flower powered, generation thought our WWII/Depression era/Christian valued parents we're crazy, uptight, they needed to loosen up, smoke a joint and make love-not war ... We had no idea the seemingly rose colored glasses hell satan had in store for us at the end of our drug induced stupor ... Now we do, and it's gotten so bad no one thinks anything can be done about it ... I repent often for my part in it, and ask God continually that He right our wrongs ...Sis Chanin you posted;--- Rahman, I was surprised to hear that you are 54 (or was that 51?) I could not tell by your words that you were not a youngster like the rest of us. you seemed "hip" to me. No really, your wording and your fire must make you seem young. ---Yes by God's grace i'm 54, but everyone i meet in person is shocked by this revelation because they think i'm at least 10 years younger ... But don't forget that i'm a baby-boomer, a member of the Peter Pan generation who never wants to grow up, and actually if it wasn't for my knees i'd never think of age ... My Ortho doc says that his business is booming with all we baby-boomers who refuse to believe we can't do high impact aerobic activities anymore ... Besides i have 9 grand-children (2 to 17) that keep the old man very hip ... '0)The odd sensation about aging is that you really begin to understand that you're a tri-partite being of spirit, soul and flesh, because at a certain point in life you begin to actually feel your physical seperating from the other two, that Adamic penalty of sin really takes it toll physically, and so your physical can no longer keep up with your mind and spirit ... But man oh man if you've got a willing spirit, rapier wit and a sharp mind, with the physicality of that "natural man" finally not being such a huge factor, that's when God can really put one to use ... i don't have to be Charles Atlas (anybody remember him) to write, and speak for the Lord, all one needs for the latter is a mic and a street cornerYou also posted;--- Isn't that funny how age is not much of a factor when you cannot see the other person.Amen ... That's one of the things i like about a forum like this age, race, physical appearance are non factors ... Sadly gender can still be tho if it's not remembered that we're ALL joint heirs in our Lord ...Christ love to you all!

Hi Rahman,Actually I did have you 'pegged' (sorry) closer to 50, but only because of your wisdom and experience. The things you have shared with us all have been a true blessing to myself and certainly others. Meant to comment in the other thread you posted on the Puritans and stewardship. Outstanding! Sometimes there is just so much good stuff here to comment on it all.The 50's and early 60's certainly had it's sins, extreme racism being one of them, but times were no where near as diabolical and as blatanly satanic as they are now ... TV programing from then to now certainly attest ... We're now techno-wicked ... One of the reasons i'm now so sold out to the Lord is i'm a part of the generation that opened Pandoras box ... My hippie, flower powered, generation thought our WWII/Depression era/Christian valued parents we're crazy, uptight, they needed to loosen up, smoke a joint and make love-not war ... We had no idea the seemingly rose colored glasses hell satan had in store for us at the end of our drug induced stupor ... Now we do, and it's gotten so bad no one thinks anything can be done about it ... I repent often for my part in it, and ask God continually that He right our wrongs ...Being that I clock in at 41 it seems I grew up in the extension of that, which became the era of self-absorption, the "me" generation, 'what's in it for me?' Where we are now...the disintegration generation? I don't know, but it does seem to be coming apart at the seams and yet there are many of our younger brethren that give me hope because they can see through all the sham and hypocrisy and even with the tendencies to everything being "extreme" in one direction, hope that it keeps up in the other, in that zeal towards Truth.In my short time I have seen us go from Captain Kangaroo and Mr. Rogers, Romper Room and Sesame Street, Jack La-Lane and Bonanza to...'Queer eye for the straight guy'? Sure sex sells and Madison Ave. is anything but naive, certainly pushing the envelope in your time, tearing it through it in mine and now...what envelope? Can't even get through a check stand at the grocery store anymore without being bombarded...the commercialization of our culture...I digress.And yes, you are right, we all have failed miserably for our part in it. I repent as well.(I do remember Charles Atlas BTW)Isn't that funny how age is not much of a factor when you cannot see the other person.As much as we would probably hate to admit it, it is true, kind of takes out that whole'intimidation' factor...Amen ... That's one of the things i like about a forum like this age, race, physical appearance are non factors ... Sadly gender can still be tho if it's not remembered that we're ALL joint heirs in our Lord ...Without a doubt. Have been pleasantly surprised so many times about how 'old' some of the members are here, the range of life experience, knowledge.What is more telling is the 'age' we are in the Lord. Some grasp things more quickly, some have fried large quantity's of brain cells and struggle :-? , different upbringings and theological understanding, the trails and testings, the commitment to the Lord, those who have come through nominal Christianity and flat out false teachings...It's vast and I think it makes this site unique in so many ways. Most of us not being overly dogmatic on secondary issues, a willingness to help and share what we have learned, that striving to grow in the Lord and encourage one another. Praise God!" age, race, physical appearance are non factors"Indeed, what's 80 some odd years? A grain of sand in eternity...

Hey Brother Mike! ... No need to be sorry for pegging me closer to my age, by the grace of God i've gotten way past my initial conniption concerning becoming a card carrying member of AARP ... '0) ... i bless God that due to His long suffering, and His unmerited grace, He didn't take His hedge of protection down from me in times where i wasn't such a good and faithful servant ... So it's obvious to me that since i know first hand the whale belly and prodigal experiences, that i'm supposed to share that He's merciful to us wherever we are ... Man i remember 41, mid-life crisis and all (started at 38), had God shown me then it was my "natural man" reacting out of fear of waning youth maybe it wouldn't have been such a hyper passage, but then again maybe i wouldn't even had heard Him ... Between 48 and 50 was my worst period, then at turning 50 i went to Chuch and praised God all service for His mercy, and my good health, and i've been content since! ... Yes you generation was the "self-absorption, the "me" generation" , but the "boomers' also had something to do with that ... i found it amazing that so many of the same free wheeling, drug crazed, anti-establishment hippies, came of age, had our children, and then turned into the ultra selfish, materialistic, BMW driving< big house in the suburbs Yuppies ... Man talk about an ideology swing! ... No wonder America has become such a schizo society ... We look pretty good on the outside, but inwardly were full of dead mens bones ... And yes it is that remnant of the young that you speak of that is that beacon of hope, young people like those on SI, and those in my church, who put a lot of us elders to shame ... Yes there are a lot of youth today saved, and unsaved who refuse to be caught up in the American materialism grist mill, and they're driving Madison Ave. and Wall Street crazy ... God bless em! .... Yes it is amazing how far we've fallen as a nation isn't it ... i'm like a Pit Bull when it comes to monitoring my grands ... What i can't keep them from we discuss in depth, my making sure they know how Jesus feels about such filth ... Ha! ... ha! ... If you remember Charles Atlas then you also remember the comic books he was advertised in ... Remember Stan Lee? ... i wasn't allowed to read comic books when i was a kid, but i snuck em anyhow ... '0)Brother what a pearl of wisdom is this post you made;--- What is more telling is the 'age' we are in the Lord. Some grasp things more quickly, some have fried large quantity's of brain cells and struggle , different upbringings and theological understanding, the trails and testings, the commitment to the Lord, those who have come through nominal Christianity and flat out false teachings...It's vast and I think it makes this site unique in so many ways. Most of us not being overly dogmatic on secondary issues, a willingness to help and share what we have learned, that striving to grow in the Lord and encourage one another. Praise God! ---Amen, and praise God is right ... i bless the Holy Ghost that He never tires in bring us ever fuller in maturity in our Lord ... And praise Him that "Most of us are not overly dogmatic on secondary issues, and are willing to help and share what we have learned" ... That's exactly how we're supposed to be, and exactly what were supposed to do ... Even tho some of us may feel strongly about a point, and push an issue a scosh past that of the Spirits directing, we'll not lose love for one another over it ... So let me state it for the record right now from my end ... We may not agree on everything BUT! ... ALL OF YOU, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, ARE MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND I LOVE YOU ALL, AND LOOK FORWARD TO THAT DAY WHEN WE'LL ALL MEET IN GLORY TO SPEND ETERNITY WITH HE THAT MAKES US ALL ONE IN HIMSELF ... AMEN!

Brother Rahman wrote:Man i remember 41, mid-life crisis and all (started at 38),Eight years ago at 40 I had a mid-life crisis of sorts. I found out my Savior was calling me. I have been dieing ever since. In ChristJeff

Amen Brother Jeff,And the sad part being prior to the crisis you mentioned we thought we were living! ... Silly us ...PS - Praise God you answered!

RahmanWhen I went through revelation I had limited material to look at but I did have a couple of tapes that helped out quite a bit and of course the spirit revealed much to me. I wondered why people avoided it so and perhaps it has to do with the state of one's life and the fact that the book speaks to a change that is coming in this world. Maybe it may be the language that seems to speak of gloom and doom when really it is showing God's mercy and love for us. Some may say how does all the violence compute with love and mercy and that is basically God's only way of getting to the majority of us at this point.I still find it amazing though that sometimes when I open the bible, there is a message for me for that day and yet some days what I read doesn't appear to be anything I need at that instant but at a later time, the spirit will reveal more to me and things fall into place. i try my best Ironman to take the same tack on what you've said, but i just can't ... Everytime i encounter some young men doing so called Christian rap in a service i immediately begin to pray ... i hope God is getting glory out of it, but all i see and hear is "world" - "world" - "world"!well I suppose that in comparison to the stuff that is coming out today the original rap was very mild. I have yet to come across the book on gangsta rap ( I wonder why...) thanks for clarifying this: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.that accurately describes the state of affairs in the church and the country in general. have a good weekend and God bless p.s. you and my dad are about the same age.