What's so bad about money?

Warning: The following may offend some reader's, due to it's length and uncompromising literal interpretation of scripture. Please read the whole thing before forming an opinion. I apologise in advance for the length, however, I could find no other way to avoid misunderstanding, as this can be a very controversial issue._________________________________________________One common thread that people who attend this site, is the reststance to liberal doctrine, that states that The Bible is not to be taken literally. This resistance is the key to any kind of depth of christian experience. This fundamentalism is the key to giving glory to God, as we cannot claim any kind of inspiration for the ideas that lead us to serving God...otherwise known as doctrines.Most of us hold the ideas the Paris Reidhead presented in Ten Shekels and a Shirt to say that the end of all being is the glory of God, based on the above supositions. What he presents, is something that flies in the face of liberal and 'papal' christianity, putting God and not man onto the throne as the final authority.In light of these supositions, consider this passage:Mat 25:13-30 KJV[13] Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.[14] For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.[15] And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.[16] Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.[17] And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.[18] But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.[19] After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.[20] And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.[21] His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.[22] He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.[23] His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.[24] Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:[25] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.[26] His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:[27] Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.[28] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.[29] For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.[30] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.Here we have an parable, which when taken literally, says "if I (God) give you money, unless you can do something with it to get the most out of it, by investing it, I will consider you to be an "unprofitable servant".Many in this day and age claim that Jesus was talking about our God given "talents (ie. abilities)", but in Jesus' time, a talent is a unit of currency. A modern translation could call this the "Parable of the Dollars", to make it contextual.Luk 16:1-13 KJV[1] And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.[2] And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.[3] Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.[4] I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.[5] So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?[6] And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.[7] Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.[8] And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.[9] And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.[10] He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.[11] If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?[12] And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?[13] No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.Here is a direct correlation between the way we are with our money, with two significant rebukes. One that "the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light" because we "have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon" as they have. Also, that "Ye cannot serve God and mammon". Most people in full time employment would have to admit that money rules their life, whether we like to or not. It determines what he can or cannot do. It literally limits our effectiveness, because if the money is not there, we may or may not be able to do what God requires. To say simply that God would provide the money if He wanted to do something, is akin to saying that He would save someone irrespecive our preaching the gospel to them. This is the problem with those who challenge Wesleyan Arminianism, due to lack of understanding of the sovereignity of God.With the above analogy, consider Charles Finney and Daniel Nash. To my knowledge, during his prayer ministry period, Nash didn't preach the gospel, neither did he work in secular employment. In spite of this, God met his needs, and souls were saved through his ministry. Finney left his secular employment to preach the gospel. He prayed much also, but not to the degree of Nash. Finney's name is remembered for the revival, and Nash is almost forgotten. Have we considered where the money for their provision came from? Seemingly out of thin air yet, few would doubt that this money came from members of the congregations that they served, who were being obedient to the Holy Spirit's prompting to give.Few would deny that prayer is the fundamental key to revival yet here, one prayed, another preached, and yet others gave, and revival resulted. Could God have done it without giving? Of course. Finney and Nash could have worked as the Apostle Paul did as a tent maker, or fishes could have contained coins as with Jesus. Could God have done it without the preaching? Of course. If Nash alone had found those who would pray with and like him, a move could have happened, similar to that of the mountaineers in Finney's memoirs.Sure, God can save souls on His own (in fact, I have heard reports of this very thing in Muslim parts of the world), but He wants us to be a part of the solution. Just as He does in the finacial solution. If we could control our money, and determine the way in which we receive it, rather than Xhrs = $Y, then we would be dictating what our money does, and in turn it will serve us, rather than us serving it.Does this mean that we have to be "master investors", who's lives is revolved around making money? Definitely not, this is the opposite extreme to serving mammon. This is getting money for money's sake. I am simply saying that making wise investments that produce a good return, displays the kind of stewardship as described in the Parable of the Talents (Dollars).There is still room for those who have the kind of calling as J Edwin Orr, George Muller, and others, who operate in a "just in time" kind of provision, but lets not limit our christianity to this. I have seen this kind of thing amongst "wealthy" people, except there "just in time" involves millions of dollars to build orphanages and churches buildings on grand scale (quantities).Lack of money is almost as bad (if not worse than) excess of money. Both conditions are amoral. If your lack of money helps you to confirm your belief that God has forsaken you, and you have to work so hard for needs that God becomes secondary, then that is sin. If your excess of money leaves you as "self-sufficient", neglecting prayer, Bible study, and service to God, because it isn't "necessary" for your survival, then that is equal sin.Essentially what I am saying is that "the love of money is the root of all evil", not money itself. Emphasising money as a primary issue (whether to seek it or to oppose it), makes the christian walk extremely difficult, because we find ourselves serving money, in spite of our well meaning. It is as possible to "love money" from afar, when you don't have it, as it is when you are surrounded by it.Incredibly, the most humble and pious christians that I have ever met, tend to be the wealthiest. It's almost as if God has set up a devine paradox to humble us as "poor" christians. They spend more time in prayer and the Word than many I know. There is something about having wealth, that requires excellent time management skills, and eradication for all entertainment (see Kieth Daniel's Father's Testimony for a real life example).In conclusion, money is one of God's tools to test our heart. He uses it to see how we will handle Godly responsability. He expects us to be wise with it, and not to just "bury it in the ground". At the end of the day, God wants us to be both content and wise with what He has given us financially. If He has said that He wants you to be "poor" to give Him glory through your lack, then give all you have. If He wants you to have wealth by which you can give Him glory through your vast giving, then be creative and efficient with what you have.Consider God's reply to Mose's, "What is that in thine hand?". Will we use the "rod" in our "hand" for His glory.

Re: taking the Bible "literally," we would all (I'm not aware of any current exceptions) say that we do so in the usual sense of the term, but strictly speaking there is a difference between the strictly "literal" hermeneutic and the evangelical "grammatical-historical" one (in the possible case that someone doesn't know, hermeneutic roughly means "system of interpretation").This is important with verses likeJohn 10:7Then said Jesus unto them again, "Verily, verily I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.so we don't start thinking Jesus was or at times morphed into some wooden frame resembling a door or gate or such. Being strictly literal in Revelation could get rather odd, too. Well, being in Revelation at all gets rather odd.As for the Matthew 25 passage, I agree (as I think you're saying) that we're responsible to put "our" money (which is really God's money, and we're stewards) to good, Godly use. However, I would say that the "talents" are symbolic of all gifts from God, including (ironically) "talents" (as in abilities, not large weights of valuable metal). Our time, relationships, abilities, money, other matieral possessions, etc. must all be used in a manner glorifying to God. Part of this is that the uses appear effective, though I don't think we're held particularly accountable for the success of our endeavors. It's "well done thou good and faithful servant" and "thou wicked and slothful servant" rather than "well done thou good and successful servant" and "thou wicked and unsuccessful servant." The success is up to God, but we should employ those means most obedient to Him and (if a choice remains) most effective. But even in the parable I don't think the Lord is looking for genius or utterly devoted effort, just an honest attempt (putting it in an interest-bearing account would have been sufficient).As for the love of money, rather than money, being a root of all evil; of course we are in agreement with the Scriptures. Matieral possessions (and money is simply a tool within the system of trade) can be blessings, or curses, depending on the heart of the possessor.

Aaaron,I am only going to respond from my (and my husband's) experience. I only speak for us and what God has shown us.My husband is very good at his job and has done very well especially in the last 6-8 years. He now owns the company he worked for. I would not say that we are millionares by any means- but many people would say that his income is classified as more than average.Just to set the stage: before my brokeness period about 3 years ago, I drove a mercedes and before that a BMW. We were christians who said that God had blessed us so we were just showing the fruits of that.Indeed, we tried hard to always do the Lord's will in many areas of our life and Dan has the gift of giving.After the Lord had started to work in my heart to release me from my strongholds (3 yrs ago) and show me His heart about things- I sold my mercedes and got a minivan (i always hated the "housewife" image). I am ashamed of how we had lived before. Not only were we lukewarm in our everyday living but also in the way we spent our money.Nowadays, my husband still makes the same amount of money but we live with much lower standards. We feel very blessed and never want to take for granted what the Lord blesses us with. now the money we would have spent on higher car payments, bigger house, more and fancier clothes-we now give away- to whoever or whatever the Lord lays on our hearts. We consider this the investment that the Lord talks about in those verses you quoted.I think that by looking at us, if you met us personally, you wouldn't be able to tell that we had money or not. (I don't have my nails done or wear fancy clothes, don't have a cleaning lady,etc...actually I dress in jeans and a t-shirt that my daughter helped pick out most of the time) I don't want people to see that we are different because of our money- i want them to see that we can relate to them and that we are different for our relationship with Christ. I think that is the way it should be. I love it when you meet people who are so humble in appearance and they have a car that's 10 yrs. old (and not a Mercedes :) and then you find out they are millionares.We also know that this money is not our own and it can be gone in a second- when and if the Lord ever decided to take it away. So we hold that money and material things very loosely in our hands. We are equipped spiritually that if my husbands business was to go under or whatever might happen- we would trust in the Lord and be ok. He keeps lowering our standard of living- our expectations, I should say. Of what we need and what we don't need. I think this is important for our kids as well. Maybe as long as we keep doing this and keep giving it away, He may continue to bless us financially with the same or more-- or maybe not. It really does not matter to us.If you are really growing in Christ-likeness, you will find that you need less and less.I am still surprised by our finances. I would have thought that the Lord would take much of it away to keep us humble or whatever. Luckily my husband is very generous and giving. When we are tempted to buy something that we don't really need- I pray about it and listen. God always lets me know. Most of the time it is "no". Helping others with your money seems to be the only positive thing about it (spiritually speaking).We are still learning. :-) In Him, Chanin

CJakforest wrote:Here we have an parable, which when taken literally, says "if I (God) give you money, unless you can do something with it to get the most out of it, by investing it, I will consider you to be an "unprofitable servant".Many in this day and age claim that Jesus was talking about our God given "talents (ie. abilities)", but in Jesus' time, a talent is a unit of currency. A modern translation could call this the "Parable of the Dollars", to make it contextual.I cannot not disagree with your statement, however I would like to add my two cents. In another parable Jesus said, "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, who when had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it." Matthew 13:45-46. Jesus refers to the kingdom of heaven as being a treasure to be acquired. The treasure that I have experienced comes from the Holy Spirit's illumination of the word of God and how it applies in my life. The treasure in heaven that I have experienced has introduced me to my Savior. The treasure in heaven has given me a glimpse of His righteousness. The treasure in heaven has shown me the depravity from which I have been conveyed out of. The treasure in heaven has brought the darkness into His light. A little farther on in Matthew 13, Jesus concludes with this, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." I believe the "talents" that Jesus refered to in your quoted Scripture, will encompass the treasure that is defined from the Jerusalem that is above. As we follow Christ obediently, His revealing Himself to us is a treasure. This treasure will enable us to glorify Him before the lost. This treasure will enable us to sow and water. Earthly mammon has the ability to purchase earthly goods and services. Heavenly treasure likewise has a power to acquire heavenly things. As we grow in understanding, that understanding will be used by us to grow further in trust of our Savior. As Jesus said, the householder will bring out of his treasure things new and old. The householders in the kingdom experience both the old talents (gifts), and the new talents. Those who obey will find this treasure. However, those who have a taste of the goodness of the Holy Spirit, and yet decide not to pursue the treasures, not to purchase the pearl will not experience all that has been freely given to those who are in Christ Jesus. Your quote of Scriptures, Luke 16In this example I believe that there are men and women who have been called to minister to the flock. God has revealed His goodness to them. "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come," Hebrews 6:4-5 I believe Luke 16 is talking about men and women who turn out like Baalam. He knew God. He ministered for God. Yet what was his outcome? I believe Baalam knew the consequences of his choice. He exchanged the goodness of God for worldly acceptance. How many men and women fall into the parameters of this parable? Having experienced God and the power of the age to come, these men yet are not willing to purchase the pearl. Only a fool gives up what he can't keep for the hope of walking a different path. Yet those who walk that path will not stumble. A table will be set in the midst of the enemy. He will anoint the saints heads with oil. And surely His goodness and mercy will follow, and we will live in the house of the Lord forever.In ChristJeff

As far as i can see there is nothing wrong with money/wealth as long as it's totally understood who it all belongs to, and if He bestows upon you the gift of 'stewardship" why you've been given money/wealth in the first place ... Scripture plainly points out that it's the "love of money/wealth" that's the problem ... And it's my own conclusion that folk who "love" money surely aren't the ones that God eventually gives it to, because it takes to long to get it from God, since He's not about to give us anything we can't handle ... So lovers of money/wealth will strike out on their own to make their fame and fortune, and you best believe ole satan is right there to boost a few with rocket riches, so that he can push them over the edge later, but in the meanwhile sucker in so many other lovers of mammom, before he eventually drowns the bait ... Personally i've always wanted money/wealth, but i've never been a lover of money to the extent of secumbing to one of satans get rich now, and i'll hang you later schemes ... No, i've always been just a little to smart, and a lot to scared for that, so like Jacob, i've always come at God in a bargaining sort of way, and up until the past two years He's always kept me at the single talent stage, because i certainly had mine buried in the ground, in that it wasn't moving at all for Him, and if it moved at all it was all about me ... Money/wealth for the God touched saint does not grow at all until one comes to understand that it's His, you're His, your ability to increase it is His, and the increase is His ... Everything is of Him, by Him and for Him ...What our Lord has clearly shown me in the past two years is that money/wealth (as i once thought) is not about getting and hoarding it to our kingdom (earthly retirement plans), but about getting and giving and supplying it to His Kingdom (heavenly retirement plans) ... Yes our Lord has entrusted to all of His servants some degree of His wealth in all aspects of our lives, money being one, and we'd best believe that He's requiring an accounting of our stewardship skills, and i personally believe He's doing so for this reason ... We that are faithful in His initial dole of a little, He can then trust to be faithful in His subsequent dole of much, and in saying this i'm talking about being all around faithful to Him ... If Joseph had not been clean of sexual misconduct, i doubt very seriously that he would have been raised to second only to the Pharoah in wealth and power ...It's a funny thing about the money/wealth that our Lord has alloted to me ... It did not begin to increase until i began to decrease (in Him) ... It did not begin to increase until after the death of my father when i stopped wanting money/wealth for my own selfish desires, and began needing it in taking care of my Mom ... Then on the heels of that came an even further rude awakening of my having lived my life like a grasshopper, and now i had two grandchildren whose educational priveledges i was now concerned about ... When these factors kicked in that's when the Holy Ghost began to school me about His money, and what a rotten steward i had so far been ... It was also the first time He made me clearly to understand the real bottom line of any money/wealth that He bestows upon His children ... The primary reason for any of us having any wealth great or small, is for the fueling of His Church, His Commision and His Charity ... Our Lord, in the final word that He gave me to the Bishop of my Church said in essence that, "There is soon coming a time where saints/churches will either be providers, or have to be provided for" , and it all has to do with what we're doing with our talents (and not just money) RIGHT NOW! ... I know for a fact that He has not groomed, and completely turned my view about money/wealth around, via puritanical teachings and the life of JD Rockefeller Sr., for nothing ... Tough days are ahead, so how many talents do you have, and what are you doing with them? ...i didn't ask the Holy Ghost to start schooling me about money, or how to make it, He decided that on His own, but i know it's for a reason, and He has my full undivided attention ...Sister Chanin you and your husband are on the right road toward being "providers" in what's coming, and i know this by the following three points that jumped out at me ... They're right in line with the Puritan's view of money/wealth, and those of JDR Sr ... And they are these ... POINT #1;Nowadays, my husband still makes the same amount of money but we live with much lower standards. We feel very blessed and never want to take for granted what the Lord blesses us with. now the money we would have spent on higher car payments, bigger house, more and fancier clothes-we now give away- to whoever or whatever the Lord lays on our hearts. We consider this the investment that the Lord talks about in those verses you quoted.POINT #2;We also know that this money is not our own and it can be gone in a second- when and if the Lord ever decided to take it away. So we hold that money and material things very loosely in our hands. We are equipped spiritually that if my husbands business was to go under or whatever might happen- we would trust in the Lord and be ok.POINT #3;He keeps lowering our standard of living- our expectations, I should say. Of what we need and what we don't need. I think this is important for our kids as well. Maybe as long as we keep doing this and keep giving it away, He may continue to bless us financially with the same or more-- or maybe not. It really does not matter to us.Amen ... As you say "It really does not matter to us" ... His will be done, but your attitude, and the continuing in such an attitude, says to God that He can trust you to be His conduit of provision to others He needs/wants to provide for ... i used to cry the blues about not having $$$ all the time, until God miraculously stepped in and began to show me the error of my ways ... My whole thing now is to quietly "give", and when it's returned to me "pressed down, shaken up and overflowing" to "give" even more quietly, bigger, and better, as He leads me ... ROCKEFELLER ESTATE: JDR Sr., even tho worth 900,000,000. in 1921, because of his strong Puritan adherence concerning money, lived in this house in Sleepy Hollow N.Y. ...http://community.webshots.com/photo/90873119/90873636jeeKpWJDR Sr. could have easily afforded a house like the following;VANDERBUILT ESTATE: http://community.webshots.com/photo/38902249/38902304WFXbdpJDR Sr. understood who gave Him his wealth and why it was given, and why he gave way over half his millions to Christ Church, Commision and Charity ... Our Lord may not bless me, or any one of us with the money/riches He blessed JDR Sr. with, but for the past two years, and from now on, whatever He blesses me with will be doled out, spent and saved under Puritan monetary standards, and a Puritans standard of un-ostentatious living, all to His glory, and the seeking of His kingdom via the talents He's alotted to me, all of them ... Amen

Rahman,It's a funny thing about the money/wealth that our Lord has alloted to me ... It did not begin to increase until i began to decrease (in Him)What an awsome comment. It's not always money that He increases as we decrease but He does as He sees fit. :)I know what you are talking about. The Lord has impressed this upon me also- about being prepared for the future. it's kind of like this "Joseph Company" that some of the more charasmatics talk about. And I tend to agree that the Lord has certain "Josephs" who He is preparing so that in bad times, they will be the ones to be able to give out the 'grain'. They will also "see" (being warned by the Lord) of what's coming and will be able to prepare and then be able to give out to those in need.I had a dream once where the Lord showed me that this rug under my feet was Joseph's coat. I've had my fair share of rejection and I'm sure it is not over-but in the long run I may be able to listen to the Lord (I have dreams,Joseph had dreams)and be warned -and later, be able to help others-even those who persecuted me or rejected me. Who knows. The Lord is so awsome, I have learned to expect the unexpected anymore.Speaking of the unexpected: my husband and I were driving by a "Media Play" store where they sell movies, video games, etc... one window had a huge poster of the Passion and the other window right next to it had a huge poster of Spiderman. It was so ironic. I said to my husband "of those two movies, the Lord chose to speak to me and give me a message from the Spiderman movie. Isn't that just like Him to do the unexpected!" And what was the message that the Lord showed me in Spiderman?"With great power comes great responsibility."I mean, He went out of His way to wake me up in the middle of the night to show me that He had a message in that movie that He wanted me to know. Wow! "With great power comes great responsibility." I've been thinking alot about this lately too. Why did He want me to know this?I am still not sure the full meaning yet. But one day I will.Goes right along with what we are talking about here too.God is so awsome!In Him, Chanin

I must say, that I'm really impressed about with the caliber of the comments made in response to the statments that I have made. They're all very well balanced, and true to scripture.Jeff's comments reminds me of something I heard in a Katz sermon this week, about scripture having both a literal and "deeper" meaning, that can be missed upon initial observation. Channin and Rahman have made some great observations, relating back to humanism vs "glory of God" issues. All of these comment have been equally weighty and void of pretence.For the information of all who have read my initial statments, to put them into context, they were origionaly part of the Apostolic Wealth Transfer thread, which dealt with the concept of "fund based" offerings, as opposed to "donation based", which is why I have focused more upon the "literal dollar" aspect of Christ's words. Chalk it up as an attempt to present an extreme, as an antithesis of another:-)

Brother Aaron, You have no idea how much our Lord has been able to school me even further via your post ... i find it a bit disheartening, but am so thankful nonetheless, that He's speaking to me so clearly thru SI about so weighty matters, but i can't get this from the pulpit of the Church i'm associated with ... But i digress ... Anyway He wouldn't let me sleep last night as He ministered to me even more regarding ...Mat 25:13-30 KJV[13] Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. [14] For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. [15] And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. [16] Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. [17] And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. [18] But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. [19] After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.This scripture obviously (to me) has more meaning to the Christian than with just money/wealth ... But since we're strictly dealing with it from this angle, it's even more clear to me what a saint is supposed to do with the material provisions God gives us ... Sister Chanin you posted;---What an awsome comment. It's not always money that He increases as we decrease but He does as He sees fit. :)I know what you are talking about. The Lord has impressed this upon me also- about being prepared for the future. it's kind of like this "Joseph Company" that some of the more charasmatics talk about. And I tend to agree that the Lord has certain "Josephs" who He is preparing so that in bad times, they will be the ones to be able to give out the 'grain'. They will also "see" (being warned by the Lord) of what's coming and will be able to prepare and then be able to give out to those in need. ---You're so right, it's usually never about $$$ unless He has chosen someone for it to be about ... It was about a whole lot of other matters before He brought me to the meaning of "stewardship" ... i seriously believe that "benevolent stewardship" is a special calling of His ... We're all supposed to be wise stewards of whatever He allots us, but there are those special stewards, those who He really knows He can trust to be His benovolent pipelines as provision for a multitude, exactly as He prepared Joseph in ancient times, and more recently at the turn of the century with JDR Sr ...i've never heard of the "Joseph Company", but like you i do know this, something wicked this way comes to America, He's told us and is still telling us, and primarily no one will believe until the famine hits ... i attend a relatively large, prosperous, influential church, whom the Lord has sent a message to regarding "preparing" ourselves to His using us as a "provider", a Joseph type church if you will, but my Pastor doesn't believe, and can't even possibly fathom that his church (because he calls himself it's founder which makes me cringe everytime he does it) could one day require its being provided for ... Like you, i also don't know exactly what our Lord has in store for me individually, but i certainly know He never put a "specific" calling/anointing on anybody's life, to "follow Him", unless He has some "specific" use for that person ahead ... i think often out of all the millions and millions of nameless followers of His throughout the Bible, how few we all know by name ... When you think of all of the nameless servants of God unmentioned, those mentioned seem very few in comparrison, but the ones called usually paid a dear price for such a calling ... i think often of the Apostles, how one day they were on their boat just leading a normal, everyday life, like so many of us, and them wham!, out of the clear blue, a voice, from God Himself, calls out to them, they answer, and no longer are they destined to a life of quiet mediocrity, they'd been chosen for His work, and His destiny for them, which for so many of them ended up, except for John, in cruel death ... But no matter what my end because of His "specific" calling i'm following HIm, and i'm doing what i hear Him say to do in my spirit, no matter who likes it or not, who think i'm crazy or not, or listens or not ... At this point i am on the greatest spiritual adventure of my entire saved, Christian life, and as for me and mine, if obedience has anything to do with it (and with Him it always does) the famine will not catch this "steward" by surprise ... Like you and your husband, i'm all about turning His talents into more for Him ... Amen PS - Did you guys know that in Jesus time a Talent of silver weighed 100 lbs, and a Talent of gold 200 lbs ... Did you also know that by todays market, if my math is correct, a ...Talent of silver @ $6.66 an oz. x 1,600 oz. = $10,656.Talent of gold @ $398. an oz. x 3200 oz. = $1,273,600.Multiply that by 2 and 5 ... What are we doing with whatever Talents He has alloted us today until His return? ... God is going to require an accounting of what we've done with His money, and because of my being remiss in the past i will not rest until i've financially restructured to putting back at least $.30 of every $1.00 He's entrusted me with, back to His Church, Commision and Charity ... This of course is just me, and not out of any obligation, but what i hear the Spirit saying to me in regards His Talents ... There is so much, as out Lord has made even clearer to me via Brother Jeff's posts over on "Days are Evil" that we don't need, but even His own people are so caught up in satans created consumer frenzy market we're thinking to ourselves, "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing" ... Whether His (American) Church wants to hear it or not ... Famine is coming!

Whether His (American) Church wants to hear it or not ... Famine is coming!Yes, i believe you are right. Yet, I don't know when that might be. I have felt the need to help my children understand how to live with less. To want less. In case this famine or depression or whatever might occur during their generation and I am gone by then. Even though we live comfortably now, I always warn them that this is not to be taken for granted -and I try to say "no" to alot of wants and needless requests for "things".I believe that the Lord will have certain people prepared with certain things. Some will get the message to have lots of water stored, or some will have medical supplies stored away. Some will have bibles, some will have blankets.Amidst all of this- the Lord has shown me to be "Spritually " prepared. Knowing that you may someday have to live by faith alone, is a wake-up call. We should all live like that.By God's planning and provision- His followers will be provided for. I just say "God, here we are. We are willing. Use our home or our money or our talents how ever you desire.I think it is wise not to worry or panic and try to store everything you can away- but to ask the Lord and let him lead you as to how you might be prepared- how you might be a blessing if something would happen. Like David Wilkerson says, "Get out of debt." I also see my husbands contacts in the community as prophetic as well. Sometimes I look and see that he has some how come to be on the board of directors for our City's Fire Dept.- who knows how this could come in handy. I see that one of his accounts is Toyota. He holds weekly bible studies at the country's largest Toyota plant in Lexington Ky. All of these contacts are important and God ordained, I believe.I am grateful that the Lord saw fit to move us 9 years ago from a very wealthy/ snobby area of Indianapolis to the country-side in Kentucky. It has helped in taking the materialism, etc... out of us.At this point i am on the greatest spiritual adventure of my entire saved, Christian life, I feel the same. I feel anxious inside, that i am about to embark on something, something that I've been in training for. Luckily i have been patient and have not done anything out of my own self-wanting. Many times I have wanted to just go ahead to "do" something for the Lord. Yet He has held me back and I have listened and obeyed. I don't want to produce an Ishamel when I am supposed to be trusting for an Isaac. :-) Let's trust in Him. He obviously has some of us in training for just this thing: "With great power comes great responsibility". There must be lots of training and lessons to be learned before anyone is given this kind of responsibility. Just look at Joseph's training. :-o In Him, Chanin

One more thing I wanted to add:Sometimes as I think about the Lord's blessing on my husband's life (ours together) and I see that this also comes because of my husbands humility. This is a humility that he is not even aware of- which makes it all the more humble. It is not a purposeful humility.As president of his company, and now even as owner, he never takes advantage of his position. When he is with one of his employees and is being introduced to someone else- he introduces himself as a "co-worker". "I work with so and so". When someone asks him where he works, he says the name of the company but never says he owns it. When he says he works at Benner Mechanical, it sounds as if he is a technician- and he doesn't care one bit what people think. On his business cards that he gives out, they do not say that he is owner.When we go anywhere, he dresses like a typical college student. People feel comfortable with him. They let down their gaurd with him. He is one of them- except that inside He has Christ and he exhibits this in his character.When he is at work, he makes himself as an equal. His humility, presence, and work ethic makes people respect him without having to rule over them. He isn't afraid to give up his office to work with everyone else if the need calls for it. He always tries to lead by example. He does chastise people at his office for cursing and unGodly behavior. But he does it in a loving "I care about you" way. He has a rputation for honesty and integrity. He would never lie or slightly change anything for the benefit of himself or the company.I am not trying to brag about him. I have my list of faults that I too often dwell on (as many husbands/wives do) but even I need to look at these qualities in Him to appreciate him for who God made him. He may not have the spiritual insight or discernment I have, he may not chase after the Lord in every way like I feel I must, he may not read many Godly books or even the bible as much as i think he should- but God is using him because of his humility, obedience and trust in the Lord.I really feel these are many of the reasons why the Lord has chosen to bless our family, even in our finances.Maybe I should email today and let him read this. It may shock him to know what i really think about him. :-P I admit that I too seldom praise him or let him know these things.In Him, Chanin

I am not agreeing with your statmenet for the sake of disagreement Chanin, but I just dont see any scripture on this facet in the end times. Please share any if you have insight into this. It sounds good dont get me wrong but I would request a reference please Greg, I think what we are talking about here- about being prepared is the same as the message that David Wilkerson himself has put out. I even have his book called "God's Plan to protect His people in the coming depression". forgive me for even bringing up the subject of anything charasmaitc. I should have known that it would be rejected right away. ok, just scratch that out completely. I have talked with many people who have felt God has called them to be prepared in a certain area. The only thing I can say is that God will take care of His people. Why wouldn't He use his own people to do plan and be a source of blessing in hard times? That's all i am saying.It is not a new theory to say that a famine or hard times are coming. Wilkerson talks about this all the time. It is not unbiblical to say that God will help people prepare as He sees fit. What's unscriptural about that? What's the use of me saying any of this when you always question my motives? If I wouldn't have mentioned the words "joseph Company" would you not have questioned me?I hope you are enjoying your c.d.'s by the way. I hope that the book on prayer by Oswald was not one that you already had.love in Him, Chanin

Is there a trouble maker amongst us? if so, it is from the enemy. this should not be so. these points like these are not worth arguing about. if in the future, you are in a position where you needed money or some kind of help- and the Lord had led us to prepare for that and have extra money or whatever that may be- I think you might be glad that we could help you and it would be by the Lord's hand and grace.yes, spiritual preperation is difinitely necessary- no doubt. there is nothing compared to that. but that doesn't mean He will not prepare us in other ways. we support you financially- we do this because the Lord has made it clear that your site needs to be provided for- even if hard times come. is this "unscriptural". no - it is from the Lord.yes, the Lord will do miraculous things when times are tough- and He will also use His people to do those miraculous things through. i hope He is already doing that.Love In Him, Chanin

Hi there Brother Greg! ... You quoted my post:--- As far as i can see there is nothing wrong with money/wealth as long as it's totally understood who it all belongs to, and if He bestows upon you the gift of 'stewardship" why you've been given money/wealth in the first place ... Scripture plainly points out that it's the "love of money/wealth" that's the problem ---Then you commented on my post;---I would say that isnt a rule to be followed. The Life of Jesus and the apostles and the teachings of Jesus point more to a people that are lowly and give money away to the poor. A people captivated with the spiritual and not with the material. True there can be some that are rich, even VERY rich in the things of this earth and still have a heart for God and be following him. But I would not paint a rule that anyone can be rich and at the same time feel its within the boundaries of spiritual chrisitan life. Paul the apostle if you read through ALL the espistles shows a picture of extreme warning to the rich and much condemnation because evidently MANY could not handle it. I would go on the side of caution with riches rather than try and allow an openess and lack of worry about it in the body of Christ. ---Ok Brother Greg, maybe it's just me, but i certainly don't see where i've conveyed a "flippant - lack of concern attitude about wealth"? ... So let me reiterate my observation, "there is nothing wrong with money/wealth as long as it's totally understood who it all belongs to, and if He bestows upon you the gift of stewardship why you've been given money/wealth in the first place", with this added clarifying statement, " i'm only speaking to those who have a real maturity, as to what and why wealth is, and from whom it comes from ... i certainly agree that if a saint is bestowed wealth they must be careful in their continued integrity to our Lord, but if they fully, truly understand as Abraham did, that God is the Source of that wealth, and it's given him for the reason of provision to others, as well as the promoting of God's plan, then if Abraham could handle it, i'm sure they'd be able to also ... In an earlier post i also stated that God does not bestow things on folk whom He knows won't be able to handle it, and that folk who have a love of money/wealth never wait on God, because they concider Him far to slow, and therefore will go after wealth on their own, thereby falling under the scriptural prophecy of being pierced thru with many arrows ... So again, with the qualifier that i'm speaking from, and to a totally mature understanding in Christ, money/wealth is not the root of all evil, but the love of it ... God has in the past, present and i'm sure in the future will always have His mature "stewards" of provision to His cause, and in my case if that's what He's grooming me for then His will be done, and if not then like Paul i'm content in that also, but i have this passage of the OT ever before me because of His leading me to the Puritan's view of money/wealth ...Deut.8[13] And when thy herds and thy flocks multiply, and thy silver and thy gold is multiplied, and all that thou hast is multiplied; [14] Then thine heart be lifted up, and thou forget the LORD thy God, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage; [15] Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint;[16] Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end; [17] And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth. [18] But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day. [19] And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. [20] As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.The Church as a whole has forgotten this, individual saints have forgotten this, America has forgotten this ... but God forbid that i, or any other "stewards of His provision", on whatever level of bestowed Talents, should ever forget this ever again! ... AmenIn His love that covers our multitudes of sin ... Brother RPS - Thanks for the info on the worth of Talents

Brother Rahman wrote: In an earlier post i also stated that God does not bestow things on folk whom He knows won't be able to handle it,In the parable of the sower, Jesus begins by saying, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?" Mark 4:13Here Jesus clearly says that understanding this parable is the key to unlocking the spiritual meanings of all other parables. With that said, Jesus goes on to warn of temptations which cause men and women to stumble. In verse 18, "Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful." Jesus warns all of us that there will be people who have heard the word and that they will stumble, will be unfruitful. I believe Scripture points to the fact that God will test our hearts. He knows our hearts, yet He allows us to be tried in order that we are shown our own heart condition. King David was tempted by the world and what was his cry? "To You I will cry, O Lord my Rock; do not be silent to me, lest I become like those who go down to the pit." Psalm 28:1. This is our only hope for clarity in our own walks. We must hear His voice. A mature christian will have been tested by the fire. A mature christian will never arrive at a point where he does not need to cry out to our Lord for His voice. So in summary of your quote, I believe what you stated may be true at points in your or any other believer's walk, but that does not exclude the times of testing that comes from our Lord. In ChristJeff

This is an interesting discussion. I see things a little bit differently.Using Galatians 4:21-31 as a background, what kind of spirit was the money created from? Was it a work of the flesh (i.e. Ishmael) versus a work of the spirit (i.e. Isaac)? I was cut to the core when I heard a message using this passage nearly a week ago. It had to be the most convicting message I've ever heard. The entire church went to the altar.In short, if our finances (or anything else in our life spouse, possessions, careers, etc.) are born of the flesh there's no real value. It's simply our attempt to help God. On the other hand, if it's straight from God's hand (i.e. born of the Spirit), we'll accept it whether we're rich or poor, sick or well.I'm reassessing my life because I only want what God wants me to have. That's a very brief synposis of this sermon but I literally can't get it out of my mind.Just my two cents worth...Ed

Brother Jeff you posted;--- A mature christian will have been tested by the fire. A mature christian will never arrive at a point where he does not need to cry out to our Lord for His voice.So in summary of your quote, I believe what you stated may be true at points in your or any other believer's walk, but that does not exclude the times of testing that comes from our Lord. ---Amen .... 1Cor.10[12] Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.[13] There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.Another good scripture to always keep in mind!

Brother Rahman quoted:but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.Grace and faith are wraped up in these few words. The temptation is real, God's grace is real, what path do we choose? Our path creates the evidence for what we hope for.In ChristJeff