BSBKJVWEBYLTASVBBEWMBT4TDBY|HymnsMusicDonate
Menu
Theology

Backwards interpretations of straight forward Scriptures...

I
int3grity Feb 26, 2009

Which is it?

John 6:44 - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him...
John 6:44 - The Father who sent Me can draw no one unless they come to Me.


John 6:37 - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me...
John 6:37 - All that come to Me, the Father then gives to Me.

Matt. 22:14 - For many are called, but few are chosen.
Matt. 22:14 - For few choose, but many are called.

John 10:26 - But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:26 - But you are not My sheep because you do not believe.

Acts 13:48 - ...and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Acts 13:48 - ...and as many as had believed were appointed to eternal life.

John 1:13 - who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:13 - who were born, not of God, but of the will of the flesh, and the will of man.

sermonindex Feb 27, 2009

Interesting. What is this second version that is contradicting the KJV?

I
int3grity Feb 27, 2009

Actually those second restatements of each verse are not from an actual Bible version. They are the way many people interpret those verses in order to try and avoid acknowledging the doctrine of election. When you ask allot of people about those verses they will tell you they actually mean what the second lines say and not what the verses actually clearly do say.

R
rnieman Feb 27, 2009

Well I suppose some do interpret those verses that way to avoid the doctrine of election. But there are many who can apply Romans 8:29-30 to the above verses without attempting to explain away the FOREKNOWLEDGE part.
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

In other words, those He FOREKNEW would choose God, He predestinated. Man’s choice is not a work. First a man’s will must be freed, Universal Prevenient Grace(John 12:32: And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. ) - which even Spurgeon preached, God draws ALL men to himself, freeing their wills. See link: Sovereign Grace and Man's Responsibility Sermon #207
[url=http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0207.htm]www.spurgeon.org[/url]

Matt. 22:14 - For many are called, but few are chosen.( Those He Foreknew would chose God, became God’s Chosen)
Acts 13:48 - ...and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. ( Those He Foreknew would believe God, became God’s Appointed)

1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: ( Those He Foreknew would believe God, he gave power to become the sons of God)
1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.( John 1:12 Explains John 1:13)

John 10:26 - But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.( Those He Foreknew would not believe God, He made NOT His Sheep.

John 6:37 - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me...SEE ALSO 38-40 **** VERSE 40 Explains verses 37-40( Those He Foreknew would believe God, God chose to raise up at the last day)
6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And Finally :
John 6:44 - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him...( Universal Prevenient Grace(John 12:32: And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.(God’s Part)
Therefore Hebrews 3:7-11- (Man’s Part)- Warning against rejecting God( Again God’s Foreknowledge of man’s response, Those He Foreknew would receive(not reject) God, SHALL ENTER MY REST
7Therefore, just as (Q)the Holy Spirit says,
"(R)TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8(S)DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
9(T)WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
AND SAW MY WORKS FOR (U)FORTY YEARS.
10"(V)THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
11(W)AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"

Because they hardened their own hearts against God, “AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"

H
hmmhmm Feb 27, 2009

reminds me of those who say that when God wants all men to come to repentance it does not meen all, kinda same thing.

R
roaringlamb Feb 27, 2009

In other words, those He FOREKNEW would choose God, He predestinated. Man’s choice is not a work. First a man’s will must be freed, Universal Prevenient Grace

Firstly, welcome to SI, glad to have you around.

Now to my question about your statement above. It seems that you are making Romans 8:29 say something it doesn't(which is exactly what the purpose of this thread was to show).

Notice you are making it say, "[i]THAT[/i] which God foreknew"(i.e. the choice the person would make). But it doesn't say that at all and it seems that you are reading into it a presupposed idea that isn't there.

It does clearly say, "[i]THOSE[/i] whom He foreknew..." indicating that God foreknew these people, which is not a foreign concept in Scripture at all.

Consider the following verses-
Galatians 1:15
Ephesians 1:1-13
2 Timothy 1:8-11

There are more of course like Jeremiah 1:5.

God has indeed elected people in Christ in eternity past. All of history is the plan of that application of redemption to those whom Christ died for.

Again, you seem to make Scriptures contradict themselves(I know that I will get taken to task for doing the same because I say look at the Greek, or look at the context).

( Those He Foreknew would believe God, became God’s Appointed)

This wording is repeated in your post, so I thought I would use one to demonstrate what I think is your point. If I am misrepresenting you at all, let me know.

If indeed our foreseen faith is the key that turns the lock of salvation, then why would Paul labor to make the point that it is not by human works? Read Titus 3:3-7 and show me how our being saved has anything to do with our works(foreseen faith).

Why didn't Christ tell Nicodemus that man could indeed "birth" himself in John 3?

Better yet, why does the same John say the following in his Epistle-
1Jn 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ [b]has been born of God[/b], and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

It seems you would have this verse say, "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ [i]chose to be[/i] born of God [i]so God gave them the new birth[/i]

This conversation is going to go round and round, and I wouldn't be surprised if the thread gets locked, but I hope we can at least discuss this not to sway anyone to a belief system, but instead to rejoice in our great and powerful God.

R
rnieman Feb 27, 2009

In Light of what you said, which I agree. I will most likely not bring anything new to the table that hasn't been argued before.

This conversation is going to go round and round, and I wouldn't be surprised if the thread gets locked, but I hope we can at least discuss this not to sway anyone to a belief system, but instead to rejoice in our great and powerful God.

My question to you in regards to Romans 8:29- If I am wrong in my interpretation of foreknowledge, then what would be your definition of it? Foreseen Faith is not a work or merit, it's a choice and nothing more. In the end it really boils down to whether or not man's choice being foreknown by God and Initiated by God(freed will), is a work or not.

If indeed our foreseen faith is the key that turns the lock of salvation, then why would Paul labor to make the point that it is not by human works? Read Titus 3:3-7 and show me how our being saved has anything to do with our works(foreseen faith).
AND in Regard to Titus 3:3-7 and 1 John 5:1

God is the primary cause; humans are the secondary cause, making human freed choice(will) compatible with God’s Sovereignty. This is called Soft Determinism or Compatibolism

I hope that clears it up


V
Vakugal Feb 27, 2009

There is another way by which we end up reading the scriptures the wrong way.

What I used to say
Lord I do not obey your commands and hence I do not love you and hence I do not value what you did for me. So if I obey your commands, I will prove my love and gratitude.

But the word of God is the other way round. It starts with He who died for my sin while I was a sinner ...
Rom 5:8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
Luk 7:47 Therefore I say to you, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, he loves little.
Joh 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.

I can obey and still not love.
But I cannot love and not obey.
works without faith is possible
Faith without works is not (the real Faith that is.)
no use to believe without repentance
Repent and believe

Joh 11:40 Jesus answered her, Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?
First believe.

This discussion is locked.

Archived
1 of 8 posts