1 John 1:8

I'd like some insight on this passage, I've recently been asked to teach our churches electives class, which is open to anyone who would like to attend. We are going to start studying 1 John and this verse has been stuck in my craw for a couple weeks now, as there are several of the Wesleyian/Arminian persuasion in my class, and others who are not.

According to Wesley, this verse is referring to an unsaved person who claims to have no sin; while others claim that this verse is warning against self-righteousness and claims of moral perfection in a Christian. I'd love some feedback on how you all interpret this verse. Thanks,
Joe

It will be helpful to read through the section ignoring the chapter and verse distinctions...

But if [b]we[/b] walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If [b]we[/b] say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If [b]we[/b] confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If [b]we[/b] say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, [b]we have an advocate with the Father[/b], Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the [b]propitiation for our sins[/b]: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Notice how the "we" is used consistently throughout the passage. Then, John writes that "we" have an advocate with the Father, and that Christ is the propitiation for "our" sins. Also, notice it is the same "we" who is possible claiming to have no sin. Therefore, I submit that it is not an unbeliever John has in mind in verse 8, because he applies spiritual realities to this individual that an unsaved person does not have.

However, we also have to consider the whole counsel of God. Our Lord gave his disciples a daily prayer "give us this day our [b]daily[/b] bread"... In that prayer, he taught us to ask for the forgiveness of our trespasses (daily). Therefore, we can conclude that sanctification will be an ongoing process during our pilgrimmage on this earth.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Hi Taylor,
Could these verses not be referring to the salvation of an unbeliever, since it says

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Well...

Examining the scope of John's letter - it seems he was at least writing to [b]professing[/b] believers. He goes on to discuss various signs that someone is indeed a genuine follower of Christ. So, it honestly may be hard to establish if who he is talking to is indeed a believer (John himself could not see into men's hearts). As I said, I think he is addressing them as professing believers, perhaps with a gracious attitude in accepting their profession, but exhorting them with several signs of true belief. At the very least, in my understanding, John is writing to professing believers. I think that is obvious from the letter, and the fact that Apostles did not write letters to people who were openly unbelieving.

The Arminian/Wesleyan view is probably quick to claim that this is definitely an unbeliever, because they feel that a Christian could use this as an excuse for sin. I think you will find it is dangerous to establish beliefs in this manner (by reacting to a perceived danger in the belief). This has been done with a number of other doctrines, particularly those of Calvinistic nature (I'm assuming we're all mature here, and that I can use the word Calvinist for distinctions sake). For instance, let's use predestination/election for example, you will often find people saying "well then we would all be robots!", then completely deny predestination. They are denying a teaching because they have a preconceived idea of the results and realities of the teaching which are incorrect. I believe you may often find the same thing occuring with this issue - "well then we could all just live in sin!". Of course, Paul received the same question (Romans 6).

We just have to examine the scope of Biblical revelation (as I mentioned with the Lord's prayer). If we do, I believe we will find that sanctification is progressive throughout the life of the believer. This sanctification is worked by the Spirit of God through the means of Word, sacrament, prayer, fellowship, etc.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

The idea that a born again Christian is doomed to everyday sinfulness is nothing but a teaching and bondage of the law. Christ has made us FREE from sin and we no long have to sin. We are supposed to be DEAD to sin and live NO longer therein. In the first vs of 1 John 2 it says IF any man sin. Not when you sin, but IF you sin. How shall we that are dead to sin continue any longer therein? GOD FORBID! The entire chapter of Romans 6 deals with this topic.

The idea of grace being an "umbrella" of God's love in which we our sins are "covered" by the blood of the lamb is inaccurate. This is what the law is. The law is the blood of animals which covers our sinfulness so that the Jews could be accepted of God. God looked at the Jews through the blood of animals and didn't see their sinfulness. This is the law. But grace is when you are dead with Christ and you no longer live. You are not merely a "covered" or "excused" person but a NEW person in which sin has no power and should therefore have no presence. IF any man sin we have an advocate. Remember, not when, but IF. Grace is when the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ destroys the old man and we are a new person without bondage to sin.

When we make continue in sin we make the blood of Jesus as though it were the blood of an animal and trample it under our feet. How much sorer punishment do you suppose we will receive for this?

The covenant of grace involves higher power, higher standards, and higher consequences. If you are constantly in sin you are not dead to sin. If you are not dead to sin you are not alive to God. If you are not alive to God you haven't been resurrected with Christ and you are altogether as an unbeliever.

Do not put your bible study group under the condemnation of the law by teaching them they are trapped in sinfulness. Set them free through the baptism into Christ. Tell them they have no more excuse for sin and they should live no longer therein. Tell them they are free from sin and alive to the Kingdom of God. EXACTLY LIKE JESUS who was tempted in all ways like as we are, yet without sin. Then they can truly die to this world and set their affections on the things above where Christ sits (and we with him) at the right hand of God.

It is as Leonard Ravenhill said, what are you saved from? hell? death? no, its salvation from sin. Is the work of Christ not enough?

Hi Matt,

Thanks for your post. I was just curious, could you explain why Christ taught us to pray daily for the forgiveness of our trespasses?

I'm not condoning sin here - I am simply trying to understand why our Lord would make this command.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

I don't believe Jesus was saying we will or must trespass every day. If he was, then why did he die? Why not just continue using the blood of animals? In the context of what you are saying, we are constantly applying blood to trespasses we can't avoid. If this is the case, then what is the difference between grace and the law? Where is the new birth and what does it mean? What does it mean to be dead to sin? Truly, being dead to sin does not simply mean being forgiven of it, but that it has not power over us. We are free from it like a widow of her husband. If a woman re-marries under the proper situation but has relations with her former husband especially if he is dead, is it not adultery? Truly you cannot serve two masters. For to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are. Whether of sin unto death or of righteousness unto eternal life.

I think he was teaching us that we are to be constantly searching our hearts for and cleansing them from any sin we may commit. Even more, I think he was putting a focus on forgiving others as we are forgiven.

We must remember that 1 John was written to Christians and not to unbelievers. In the first chapter the Apostle John is exhorting the believers on how to maintain their fellowship and communion with God. When we walk in the light we have fellowship with God. When we walk in darkness, that fellowship is broken. Fellowship is restored by confessing our sins to God. Although Christians should not sin, because Jesus has delivered us from the power of sin, there is always the possibility that we could sin. If we walk in the Spirit then we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We must take up our cross daily, because unless we have had radical dealings by the Lord, we do not really know ourselves as we ought to.

Mike

Hi Matt,

In speaking about the blood of animals, we need to distinguish between the shadow and the reality. The animal sacrifices were a shadow of a thing to come, namely, Christ, the true and sufficient sacrifice. And, we know from the book of Hebrews that the blood of animals was never sufficient to atone for sin.

The differences between the covenants are numerous, one being that under the old covenant, the faithful were guided my types and shadows, whereas under the new covenant we have received the things these types and shadows pointed to. We have a fuller revelation of God's redemptive purposes, etc.

The new birth is a sovereign work of God whereby the sinner is regenerated and is given spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear. It is much more than mere moral reform (as it is often preached in our day).

I agree, we have victory over sin, by the Lord's grace. I am simply stating that this mortification of sin proceeds gradually. Sin is not currently in "check-mate" as it were, but the pieces are such that check-mate is inevitable, and will be reached when the Lord returns and we "know Him as we are known."

You wrote - "I don't believe Jesus was saying we will or must trespass every day." To which I respond, that if so, he wouldn't have told us to ask forgiveness for trespasses everyday. We must also remember that simply because we do not perceive sin in ourselves does not mean that it is not present. The Lord knows what is in man, and I think it is safe to conclude that the thrice holy God can find fault with our performance any day of the week.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Hey Guys,
Thanks for the input; Taylor, for the record, I do believe that this letter was written to professing believers, I was just begging the question, as it were, hope you don't mind...It has been my first impression reading this passage that it is referring to believers.

Hi Brother,

No problem. I've enjoyed discussing the passage!

One thing I've found is that the more a christian grows, the more they realize their total insufficiency apart from Christ. I know some define sin as a known violation of God's law.

I agree, brother. May the Lord help us all to see our utter insufficiency. As the Lord told the Pharisees - [i]"Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."[/i] (John 9:41)

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Hey, thanks for the thoughts Taylor. So, how would I respond to those that may see this passage as referring to those that are not in Christ? I'm inclined to direct my class to the fact that there is a desire for holiness in true Christians, regardless of how they choose to word it, ie. "progressive vs entire".

Frist John is a outline of the christian character were by we can examine our lives . Here we can test ourself by the word, to examine ourself to see if we are in the faith. In 1 John 1:8 one who will say I have no sin. A christian can not say I have no sin. A christian will say without grace and the power of the spirit all I can do is sin, there is nothing good in me and if it was not for grace worked in my heart I would sin against Him all the time. In this you see the character of the christian to sin. If your only hope is in what Christ did you will find assurance in the text. If your hope is in what you have done or any other work of man you will find no peace.

Frist John is a outline of the christian character were by we can examine our lives . Here we can test ourself by the word, to examine ourself to see if we are in the faith. In 1 John 1:8 one who will say I have no sin. A christian can not say I have no sin. A christian will say without grace and the power of the spirit all I can do is sin, there is nothing good in me and if it was not for grace worked in my heart I would sin against Him all the time.

This is well said and in line with Scripture...

This reminds me of this believer's testimony...

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Psa 119:1 Blessed [are] the undefiled in the way, Who walk in the law of the LORD!

Psa 119:2 Blessed [are] those who keep His testimonies, Who seek Him with the whole heart!

Psa 119:3 They also do no iniquity; They walk in His ways.

Psa 119:4 You have commanded [us] To keep Your precepts diligently.

Psa 119:5 Oh, that my ways were directed To keep Your statutes!

Psa 119:6 Then I would not be ashamed, When I look into all Your commandments.

Psa 119:7 I will praise You with uprightness of heart, When I learn Your righteous judgments.

Psa 119:8 I will keep Your statutes; Oh, do not forsake me utterly!

Psa 119:9 How can a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed according to Your word.

Psa 119:10 With my whole heart I have sought You; Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments!

Psa 119:11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You.

Psa 119:12 Blessed [are] You, O LORD! Teach me Your statutes.

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John's testimony is the same as the writer of Pslam 119...

In Christ
Jeff

I am not posting these scriptures to say that we don't have the ability to sin. I am posting these scriptures to show that sin is not supposed to be always present in your life as a believer.

1 John 3

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Also, the bible says love not the world for the love of the world is enmity with God. The only way to sin is to take your affection off of the Kingdom of God and place it on this world. Then, you will mind the things of this world and seek them. Will God permit you to enter the Kingdom of God if you are his enemy and love the world? If you are resurrected with Christ, you are supposed to be alive to the Kingdom of God and dead to the world. If you mind the things of the world, you are not dead and therefore cannot be resurrected. What did Jesus tell Peter when he set his affections on the things of the world? "Get thee behind me Satan!" For thou savorest not the things which be of God but the things which be of man. Any time you have a sin in your life that is not defeated, you are standing on the outside of the Kingdom of God, you are standing in the world. For to have one sin remaining in your life is to place the world before God. Does an Idolater have a place in the Kingdom of God? No. But we are supposed to be dead to sin. DEAD. Not alive to it. You can't be alive to God and the world. It is not possible. One sin is enough to make you dead to God. If you have sin, don't fight against it in yourself, die to the world and you will no longer value it over the Kingdom of God.

Hello, brothers .. matt , mike ,taylor.. Good posting matt . The verse here in this passage is so out of line, because it is not interpreted correctly. It cannot be interpreted correctly because it does not fit in with verse 6,7 nor does it fit in with 1 john 3:4-6. the amplified bible does not even have it stated as it should read . first , this passage is not refering to sanctification , but it is refering to justification. it is immedietly preceeded by the assertion , " the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin." so verse 8 could not be saying "that if we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves ", and this could not be said right after " the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin " come on , all exspositors and preachers, represent Jesus better ,please ! , i beg of you to learn this. John the apostle would never contradict himself .in verse nine John says it again " that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness ",if we are cleansed from all unrighteous ness we are cleansed fron all sin.John is speaking of being Justified here , not sanctification.here is the meaning of the whole passage as given by charles finney....If we say that we are not sinners , that is , have no need of the blood of Jesus Christ ; that we have never sinned, and consequently need no savior, we deceive ourselves. For we have sinned, and nothing but the blood of Christ cleanseth us from sin, or procures are pardon and justification. And now, if we will not deny , but confess that we have sinned, " He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." " But if we say we have not sinned we make Him aliar, and His word is not in us." ... Now to the lords prayer ... it would also be a flat contradiction for Jesus to have us pray for it to be here on earth as it is in heaven , and then have us to pray for sins that we keep commiting to be forgiven. it is a sinless state in heaven. we can only ask Christ for forgiveness only when we have repented , so the lords prayer is for forgiveness of past sins. the lords prayer is only having a renewed abhorence and grief over our past sins,and a fresh acknowledgement of , and a casting ourselves upon His mercy. His having Forgiven us does not make the potition improper..

Brother Clint wrote:

the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin." so verse 8 could not be saying "that if we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves ", and this could not be said right after " the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin "

We have this thought given to us in Scripture...
..............................................................................
Psa. 119:1 \tBlessed are the undefiled in the way,
\tWho walk in the law of the LORD!
2 \tBlessed are those who keep His testimonies,
\tWho seek Him with the whole heart!
3 \tThey also do no iniquity;
\tThey walk in His ways.
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Likewise John who knows the Scriptures writes this...

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1 John:

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

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These two sections of Scripture say the same thing do they not?

Likewise if we continue, we find this parallel of these two sections of Scripture....
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Psalm 119:
4 \tYou have commanded us
\tTo keep Your precepts diligently.
5 \tOh, that my ways were directed
\tTo keep Your statutes!
6 \tThen I would not be ashamed,
\tWhen I look into all Your commandments.
7 \tI will praise You with uprightness of heart,
\tWhen I learn Your righteous judgments.
8 \tI will keep Your statutes;
\tOh, do not forsake me utterly!
9 \tHow can a young man cleanse his way?
\tBy taking heed according to Your word.
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and

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1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.
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John and the writer of Psalm 119 have shared with us the same precept...

Remember, John finishes this exhortation with these words..."My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin."

If one continues in John's letter we find this thought....

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12 I write to you, little children,
\t\tBecause your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.
13 I write to you, fathers,
\t\tBecause you have known Him who is from the beginning.
\t\tI write to you, young men,
\t\tBecause you have overcome the wicked one.
\t\tI write to you, little children,
\t\tBecause you have known the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers,
\t\tBecause you have known Him who is from the beginning.
\t\tI have written to you, young men,
\t\tBecause you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
\t\tAnd you have overcome the wicked one.
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The writer of Psalms 119 writes....

......................................................................

9 \tHow can a young man cleanse his way?
\tBy taking heed according to Your word.
10 \tWith my whole heart I have sought You;
\tOh, let me not wander from Your commandments!
11 \tYour word I have hidden in my heart,
\tThat I might not sin against You.
12 \tBlessed are You, O LORD!
\tTeach me Your statutes.
13 \tWith my lips I have declared
\tAll the judgments of Your mouth.
14 \tI have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies,
\tAs much as in all riches.
15 \tI will meditate on Your precepts,
\tAnd contemplate Your ways.
16 \tI will delight myself in Your statutes;
\tI will not forget Your word.
17 \tDeal bountifully with Your servant,
\tThat I may live and keep Your word.
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Please notice that John divides the body of believers into three groups and then distinguishes each group from one another. Then meditate on how a "young man" cleanses his way, according to what is written in Psalm 119 above...

Just some bread to feed upon...

God Bless
Jeff