John Piper Testing Wilkerson's Message

[url=http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1670_testing_david_wilkersons_prophecy/]Testing David Wilkerson's Message[/url]

Testing David Wilkerson’s Prophecy
March 9, 2009 | By: John Piper
Category: Commentary

The Bible says, “Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:20-21).

David Wilkerson will cause a good many hearts to pound faster with his pronouncement that “AN EARTH-SHATTERING CALAMITY IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN.” New Yorkers especially will swallow hard: “It will engulf the whole megaplex, including areas of New Jersey and Connecticut.”

What shall we make of this? The part that depends on the Bible we should take with absolute seriousness. You don’t need to have special revelation to know that the rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord is the norm in America. Therefore, we stand under the judgment of God and it is only a matter of time till the present judgments (Romans 1:18-32) give way to spiritual awakening or punitive calamities (2 Thessalonians 1:6-8).

But the part of the prophecy that goes beyond what the Bible says, we measure by biblical standards. Two things give me pause in Wilkerson’s extra-biblical specifics.

First, it does not resonate with my spirit when he claims that God told him to “lay in store a thirty-day supply of non-perishable food, toiletries and other essentials” because when disaster comes “grocery stores are emptied in an hour.” God might have said this. But it doesn’t smell authentic to me. Too prudential. Too reminiscent of the embarrassing Y2K excesses.

Second, my confidence level drops when the Scriptures are not handled carefully. Wilkerson says, one way we can respond is: “As David says, ‘He fixed his eyes on the Lord on his throne in heaven—his eyes beholding, his eyelids testing the sons of men’” (Psalm 11:4).

This does not have the feel of authority to me because what Psalm 11:4 really says is: “The Lord is in his holy temple; the Lord’s throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man.”

So my take on this prophetic word is that the scare will probably do good for a lot of people. The Bible is a scary book. And the future that is coming on unbelievers is scary beyond anything any preacher could conjure up.

But my own effort to be discerning says: Stick with the Bible, David. It is scary enough. And it is absolutely true. And your credibility will never fall.

First, it does not resonate with my spirit when he claims that God told him to “lay in store a thirty-day supply of non-perishable food, toiletries and other essentials” because when disaster comes “grocery stores are emptied in an hour.” God might have said this. But it doesn’t smell authentic to me. Too prudential. Too reminiscent of the embarrassing Y2K excesses.

I don't really know if this was meant to be prophetic or just good and wise advice. We live and have grown up in America at a unique time when our 'storehouse' [i]is[/i] the local supermarket. And working in one I can tell you that it is an unsound foundation to say the least. If something of a national crisis happens it would not take long for the shelves to empty and the transportation system of new supplies could easily become overburdened.

When I was a child, my great grandmother always kept a ready supply on hand of canned food and food that she had raised in her garden. (She had lived through the great depression btw.) It was a common chore for me to walk up the street to 'Grannies' house to get a jar of stewed tomatoes or some other vegetable for my mom to cook.

Without being an alarmist, stocking up on non-perishable foods sounds like a good practice to get in the habbit of in these times. After all the wise man sees the trouble in the way and prepares, the fool goes on and is punished.

Blessings,
Jeremy Hulsey

I got saved at Times Square Church right before 9/11. I walked into something unusual.

I never heard of David Wilkerson but he was at the pulpit saying, "We don't know what's going on but we feel lead to shut down all ministry events, meetings, outreaches, etc. and just come together every single night and pray. A visitation from the Holy Ghost." (my paraphrase)

I didn't know what was going on except that they opened the church every night of the week and the men were on there face crying because something was coming to the city.

3 weeks later 9/11 hit. They knew then and they now! God always warns his people. I was there.

I don't really know if this was meant to be prophetic or just good and wise advice

My only reason for posting this was to give another point of view. I am certainly not saying Wilkerson is unbiblical (just for the record :)

It is a subject for prayer and wise counsel, that's for sure.

In Him, Chanin

First, it does not resonate with my spirit when he claims that God told him to “lay in store a thirty-day supply of non-perishable food, toiletries and other essentials” because when disaster comes “grocery stores are emptied in an hour.” God might have said this. But it doesn’t smell authentic to me. Too prudential.

"Let Pharoah take action to appoint overseers in charge of the land, and let him exact a fifth of the produce of the land of Egypt...then gather all the food of the good years and store up the grain in the cities under Pharoah's authority...let the food become as a reserve for the land of seven years of famine.

Then Pharoah said, "Can we find a man like this, in whom is the spirit of God?' So Pharoah said to Joseph, 'Since God has informed you of all this, there is no one so discerning and wise as you are.'" (Genesis 41:34-39)

I'm with you Paul, I think an ounce of prevention could be worth a pound of cure.

I understand practical and Biblically informed behavior. Nonetheless, I was very sorry to find NO call to repentance or intercession in David Wilkerson's recent message. Repentance and prayer would seem a first response to such “news.” Clean hands follow repentance.

I have found the call (through Crown Ministries) to believers regarding our behavior in America, their assessment of various scenarios, and their consistently Biblical and practical advice appropriate and balanced. They made a strong Biblical call for national repentance and prayer on 9/24/08.

I posted this summary on SI. [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=25406&forum=48 ]Link is here[/url], on 9/30 at 14:32.

[b]Oh to hear from Church leaders[/b] the call to prayer 2 Kings 6:27 “And he said, 'If the Lord do not help thee, whence shall I help thee,'" and to repentance.

As I am studying the books of Moses during these days, several thing stand out. The response of Moses and Aaron to the pending destruction of the people was “falling on their faces” and interceding (Numbers 16:45 is just one example from my reading for this week). As they learned after the events of the spies (Numbers 14), acknowledging sin and obeying rather than coming up with their own way of responding to judgment/changing things is the way to go.

Maybe a message on repentance will follow. In addition, the events as described are limited in area and in duration (one month?). This will afford many believers the opportunity to prepare help for others. I have heard that local stores no longer rent large warehouses to store products but use re-stock deliveries to keep a one month supply on hand. That is true with my local grocery store on the West Coast. If everyone in one area bought a one month supply of food that would empty shelves itself.

I have kind of read through the different posts and different opinions and thoughts. It is good I believe to sharpen each other with counsel and keep focused on our deliverer. If there is one thing that God seems to have shown me is that to say God will 'always'or God will 'never' in regards to His actions can be very embarrassing. I think that this thread has shown more than the others a balance that is biblical and not compromising or double minded. We bought ten gallons of water for Y2K because if our well doesn't have electricity we don't have water. I am in country in Ohio and not NYC so the word of God to me "could" be different without God being different. I believe that to hoard supplies without sharing would be selfish. People will not necessarily be starving to death within 30 days and it would be right to share. I think of Elijah and the widow with oil or times I've heard of God making bags of grain last miraculously in times of famine for God's people. They weren't necessarily passing the provisions out although the famine hit everyone in their area. When Joseph supplied food for his family back home it was for his family and not for all the inhabitants of the land. As I was mulling the urgent message over after it was posted, two things came to mind. David Wilkerson is in my mind no doubt a Godly man. I don't listen to him as much any more as he seems to be more faltering, but he is sober and I don't think he would do something like this on a whim or lightly. Second is that God has been showing us about eating raw including sprouting seeds and grains. We were at whole Foods and I was buying some of these seeds when it hit me, with a little water, you could have a modest food supply with not a lot of investment and these things are cheaper by pound than by ounce. Again God will supply provisions for His people but it isn't always how we have pictured. I do pray that we continue to seek His face and the balance of 2 Chron 7:14 and He will be faithful to heal our land, even if through calamity. Peace to all, Barry

I think you bring up a good point. In the local churches the word has been circulating that one day the local congregations may have to gather inorder to eat at least a couple of full meals a week. It still needs to mentioned that in the judgements listed in Revelation Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. This can be telling, run away inflation but not everything will be touched.

2009/3/10 10:01
I have kind of read through the different posts and different opinions and thoughts. It is good I believe to sharpen each other with counsel and keep focused on our deliverer.

I have wondered whether to join this conversation but this seemed to be an encouragement to do so. I believe David Wilkerson is a brave and godly man, I also believe John Piper is a brave and godly man. I respect them both and am intimidated by neither. I wonder if folks have heard of "Intrusion Ethics"? I think it is a term which has come from modern Reformed teachers but I have my own spin on it and thought I would share it here.

I am part way through a book that I am writing and this is an excerpt from one of the chapters. Normally I never read posts as long as this one will be but tell me what you think about this...

[color=0033FF]"Let me introduce you to the idea of ‘Intrusion Ethics’. ‘Oh help’ I hear you cry! Most big ideas are much simpler than they sound. Why did God allow his covenant to be constantly disregarded and the nation of Israel to become more and more pagan. We are raising a question here that surfaces in the thoughts of anyone who takes the Bible seriously or looks at the world in which we live; why doesn’t God do something? Long before this time God had promised the land of Canaan to Abraham but gave an interesting reason as to why Abraham would not immediately possess the land. Apparently other events in other peoples were part of God synchronising of events; But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.” Gen 15:16. Abraham’s descendants’ possession of the land would be synchronised with God’s judgements upon the inhabitants of Canaan. Our refusal to bring our lives into line with God’s pattern will have consequences; this is an unchanging fact of revelation. And yet so many cruel dictators have died in comfort in their beds and appear to have escaped God’s judgements. How can we understand this? Why did God not stop Hitler or Stalin or Idi Amin with an instant judgement?

Paul gives us one answer to this puzzling question in Romans; Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, Rom 9:21-23. In one sense that is an end of the matter. God is God and he will do want he wills. “Intrusion Ethics” is not arguing with Paul’s Spirit inspired words in Romans, but there is an old question that an old ‘friend of God’ once asked; Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Gen 18:25. There follows a fascinating conversation between God and his friend which we do not have time to pursue other than to remark that this was a conversation between friends and not a bartering encounter in a bazaar.

In the setting of the Canaanites it seems that God was ever reluctant to visit his judgement on the atrocities that were performed there masquerading as religion. While there is the slightest possibility of repentance he hold back his wrath even though he knows that they will not change. There is a wonderful stastement about the nature of God’s love in the gospel according to John; …when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him, Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to God, rose from supper and laid aside His garments, took a towel and girded Himself. John 13:1-4. One of those whose feet he washed, having loved him to the end, was Judas Iscariot. If God then is so reluctant to act in judgement why does he ever do so? This is where the idea of “Intrusion Ethics” come in. At best it is a ‘best fit’ answer to the question, it is not the last word on the subject.

“Intrusion Ethics” makes a very clear distinction between the age in which we live in which God allows us to benefit from ‘Common Grace’ and the coming age of the ‘Consummation’ or final judgement. The fact that we are still alive in spite of our sinfulness is due to God’s ‘common grace’ towards our race. Even those who have not come into God’s favour through Christ are benefiting from this time of ‘common grace’. Even though we deserve judgement and instant retribution for our sin we are still here because of God’s unmerited love towards us, His grace. Why? Well Peter expresses it like this; The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2Pet 3:9. There is however another era that is on its way, and here we return to Paul; He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead. Acts 17:31.

So, if God is waiting for ‘another day’ why does he ever bring judgement now? These judgements are ‘intrusions’ of the ‘ethics’ of the coming age of Consummation into our days of Common Grace, or so the idea “Intrusion Ethics” states it. Some of God’s judgements which ‘intrude’ into this era of common grace are glimpses of a future day. They are ‘anticipations’ of the era of Consummation. One day this will be the norm and not the exception. These judgements then are examples of another day and a constant warning that the day of the Consummation and Final Judgement will arrive. They serve as rare examples of God’s character in his attitude to sin and the sinner, an attitude that will be revealed in all its awesome fulness on a coming day. They are Judgement Day in miniature and very rare. Isaiah declares one of these ‘out of the ordinary’ periods of coming judgement; For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. Is 28:21 KJV.

Perhaps we should add a word of caution. We need to be very cautious in what we declare to be an act of God’s anticipatory judgement. It is folly to try to map specific sins to specific events although many Christians will attempt it. Notice in these verses the way in which the Lord refuses to link a specific sin with a ‘strange act’ but insists that the final day of judgement will surely come; Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Luke 13:4-5."[/color]

The next question is do we dare make this connection between 'that sin' and 'this catastrophe'? I know the Bible writers do it but then they were verbally inspired.

I get a first run of this book? Thank you in advance.
Eccl says there is a time and season for all things under the sun,, and David fell in adultry at a time when Kings go to war, I sometimes feel as if what we see on earth is actually the results of what is happening in the heavens or that realm of the invisiable. In God's reconing with His servants over money>>1,3,5>>we always assume it means His saved children, blood bought, but thats not what it says, He called Nebuchadnezzar and many other pagans His servants, so what I see is the Lord taking back what actually belongs to Him. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness there of. As to the question of specific sins bringing specific judgements, I do believe that certain sins of the flesh bring specific judgements, but when you look at blanket judgements that take out entire cities or areas of society, it's usually provoked by relationship issues, injustice, oppression, etc...In America I believe we'll see judgement on our liberty because it has become such an idol, in the process of such those who were oppressors will become oppressed themselves by the very government they used with its systems to harm the innocent. The saint in all this needs to be sure they 're on the right side of the plumbline of righteousness because the warning in all ages has been that of Eze 33. But what about saints who die in the midst of these unusaul storms etc...? That's what we all really want to know but as you have stated above, Lk13:4-5 That becomes an individual matter of the heart and God forbid I/we should tred where angels fear to tred, as the saying goes.

I really appreciate the perspective from this excerpt you have posted and wish to add my "request" to Brother Darryl's, "me too, me too!" :-)

May we indeed, in fear and trembling before a most Holy God, be most hesitant to declare anything as fact, leaving room for His great mercy and grace to unfold our times which are all in His hand. I am reminded also of the earlier verses in Romans 9, particularly vs 15.

Thank you, again,

Lois