Ecumenicalism, Compromise, Holiness

There is a lot of talk these days about "Christian Unity," and how we must get along with anything that calls itself "Christian." But Jesus told us that He would bring a sword.I'm not advocating splitting over every little nit-picky detail, but then again, how do people overlook differences when they are vital and so diametrically opposed? For example, can you believe in salvation by faith and go to a church that does not? Can you believe in holiness and go to a church that does not? Perhaps (and this is a BIG may-be) if you are a VERY young Christian and ignorant of these facts. Isn't it better to be divided over sound doctrine than to be deceived together?Doctrine is so very important. If we try to brush certain differences under the rug we lack integrity of heart before God. Do we really believe in what we say we do? Then why compromise? Then why support compromised churches with our attendance, money, and time? Why infect our children with lukewarm poison? DF

As far as I know, I'm the only one I know that believes as I do down to the letter, or even (proverbially) the sentence. My theology is essentially Holiness mixed with a moderately modified Reformed theology (modified enough to be thoroughly not Reformed), with some distinctly Presbyterian leanings. I consider monergistic regeneration pretty important, though not as divisive as Holiness (I recently declined an invitation onto the leadership of the campus ministry God used partly in my conversion, and I plan to not attend it this semester, because they believe straight-out it-doesn't-matter-what-you-do-after-you-come-to-Christ-you'll-still-go-to-heaven, even though they essentially never preach it, and I suspect many of them don't even believe it).The church I attend is independant evangelical, with a predictable mixture of Calvinism and Arminianism (and I think many of those who think they are Arminians are really semi- or full-Pelagians as far as sotierology). The pastor tends more toward the Puritanical view of Holiness, which I find acceptable. Read Jonathan Edwards' "The Way of Holiness" sometime, quite interesting to read a Calvinist writing like that.Ultimately, while I take "come out from among them" seriously, I would probably be just as not-fitting-in among the Holiness Pentecostals as I am among the Historic Reformed (that is, Puritan-like Reformed). If someone gets flat-out antinomian, then I'm gone. Even if it means being alone, no roof, no food, etc.Thankfully, God has provided me with the fellowship of a fairly large number of genuine Christians, even though I disagree with all of them (to my knowledge) on various points.

I agree with you. There are some great writings on Scriptural separation and Holiness by Dr. O. T. Spence. One is called SCRIPTURAL SEPARATION. Another is THE FUNDAMENTALIST AND THE HOLINESS OF GOD. There is a website http://www.foundations.edu/God bless!

As far as I know, I'm the only one I know that believes as I do down to the letter, or even (proverbially) the sentence. My theology is essentially Holiness mixed with a moderately modified Reformed theology (modified enough to be thoroughly not Reformed), with some distinctly Presbyterian leanings. I consider monergistic regeneration pretty important, though not as divisive as Holiness...If your pastor preaches like Johnathan Edwards, then you are VERY blessed. It sounds like both Calvinists and Armenians in your church are striving for holiness, which is surprising for these days but I'd go listen to a "Johnathan Edwards" preaching any time even though I'm not Calvinist.But I am talking about a "good," perhaps even "moral," church that does not preach that holiness is required for a Christian. How can someone go to a church for months, or even years, without being convicted of their sins is beyond my understanding. Johnathan Edwards would have them either converted or walking out after a few services for sure. Ultimately, while I take "come out from among them" seriously, I would probably be just as not-fitting-in among the Holiness Pentecostals as I am among the Historic Reformed (that is, Puritan-like Reformed). If someone gets flat-out antinomian, then I'm gone. Even if it means being alone, no roof, no food, etc.My main problem is with churches that give lip service to righteous living and yet are silent from their pulpits. We all know the quote, “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." A pastor does not have to be Antinomian to be against holiness. If one waits until it gets that bad (Antinomian), he'll be spiritually dead by then to discern anything and will probably never leave. All a pastor has to do is not cry out against sin and sin will inevitably infest the church like a cancer. There are places that I would not bring a lost person to because I know that they would not preach him under conviction.Holiness Pentecostals are generally conservative in theology and believe in righteous living with slight differences as it pertains to personal convictions (correct me if I'm wrong). I could live with that if they preach against sin and can get a lost person saved.It seems to me that what we need right now are more John Wesleys and Johnathan Edwards' crying out against the sins in the church. What good does it do for a pastor to preach an undefiled doctrine on the end-times, if there are people in the congregation living in sin, who haven't heard a heart-rending message in years - if ever? I wonder about people who know better and keep going to such places. People get dull after a while and take on the same spiritual make up of those around them. ...Purity is not all "that" important anymore. They sympathize with their friends in church and rationalize that they are not "that bad." They are in fact, "good" people (really what they mean is "moral"). Birds of the same feather flock together.What are some of your thoughts? It seems like there are many strong Christians in this BB. What type of churches do you go to? Does your pastor cry out against sin? If not, why do you still go there? Is it the fear of man? Is it the love for the fellowship you get there? Is it for the "other" good teachings you get there? Is it for a feeling of security? Is it because there is no other alternative?Thanks, DF

Dear Dairy Farmer:I am a classical Pentecostal preacher (not Charismatic). I am crying aloud and sparing not. Whenever I get the opportunity to preach, I am doing so. For many years, I pastored Churches. Now, I am called to write and to speak prophetically--calling the Church back to repentance, their first love of Christ, to godly living, and preparation for the coming of the LORD. Most recently, I preached the Easter Campmeeting 2004 for Brother Jimmy Swaggart in Baton Rouge, LA. The man has repented and is preaching a strong message of the Cross and revival. He is standing against psuedo-Christianity, purpose-driven, seeker-sensitive stuff.I am also writing a book called, SEEK YE THE LORD: A PROPHETIC CALL TO PRAYER. A publisher has responded postively to my query letter and wants to read the entire manuscript. (I am not finished with the book, but I hope to be by the end of the year.)May God touch all of our hearts with the Fire from Heaven that leads to holy living. Hebrews 12:14, "Follow peace with all men and holiness, without which, no man shall see the LORD."In Jesus' name,Brother Stephen YorkDown East, Maine

Greetings DairyFarmerI am a dentistry student in South Africa Cape Town. Before I came to Cape Town I lived with my parents in a small town. In town there were 2 churches. One hyper charismatic and the other reformed, but to my current view-dead. I can say that although I knew the church to be dead and the pastors to be comprimizers, I never thought of leaving the church. What I know now is that it would have been better to do so even if t mean one should stand alone. When I came to Cape Town, I found here a group of people loving and serving Christ. Not belonging to any organization, not having any set of rules exept the Word of God. We come together in our homes and do not have buildings belonging to the "church" or membership sertificates. We look to the first church as our foundation as we believe this current way in which the church or organization is run, is not meant to be this way, even though God has used it in the past and might be still in the present. But in this days where things are getting out of hand in the churces we cannot I believe go on with staying there. It is as you said, either we get out, or we will be changed to their ways. Also, if we dont speek out against the sin in the churches and keep quiet, we actually show to the others we are going with it, for those who are not against something are for something. There is no middle way with God. I thank God to see that He is truly woriking in His children all over the world and bringing them out of this system of the church today and showing them Himself. He said, let those who are holy become more holy and those who are evil, become more evil.Let us pray and not keep our mouths shut if the Lord tells us to speak out. Let us also lift Him up and make Him the centre of our preaching and not the booting down of the church. He said that if He be lifted up, He will draw all men to Him.In ChristJanus