"Some of us will rise with the first resurrection" - Art Katz

Hi all,

I am a great admirer of Art Katz. His teachings always cut me to the heart, and I believe the Lord will continue to use his material for a long time to cut through to my innermost parts and probe, test and challenge me.

When reading through [i]Apostolic Foundations[/i], which I think is spot on in the challenges that it presents, I came across some eschatological views of Art's that I hadn't come across before. One of which is the idea of a separation of [b]saints[/b] between the first and second resurrection, what do you think?

NB: I still think the challenges even of this passage are worth us taking to heart, whatever our doctrinal conclusions and persuasions.

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THE MYSTERY OF REWARDS (from Apostolic Foundations)

Neither will we all rise at the same time. Some of us will rise with the first resurrection of a first fruits kind, that is to say, those who will rule and reign with Him in His millennial Kingdom. Others will sleep through the Millennium, and only rise with the general resurrection of the dead that is described in Revelation Chapter 20, where the books will be opened, including the Book of Life, to see if their names are written in it.

Some of us will not be equipped to rule and reign with Christ, because we have ignored, or forsaken, of have had no stomach for this kind of responsibility, though we [i]could[/i] have obtained it in this life. Those Christians, who have been content to sit passively in fellowships their entire Christian life, because they were assure they were "going to heaven" may well be profoundly disappointed. I would not want to miss the first resurrection, and that is why Paul is continually exhorting the saints to be found blameless in the Day of the Lord's appearing. We have an eternal incentive to obtain a distinctive reward of the high calling in Christ Jesus. Apparently it is not for everyone; for it says that the rest shall sleep:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the word of God, and those who had not worshipped the beast or the image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection." - Revelation 20:4-5

It is a a remarkable reward for a remarkable service in a remarkable time of Last Days' oppression and persecution, where the greater number evidently could not stand in a faith that could resist succumbing to the mark of the Beast. The 'beheaded' are a people who will prefer to perish rather than take the mark, of which we are warned, that if we take it, we will be cast into the lake of fire with the Devil.

[...]

THE FIRST RESURRECTION

[...]

"And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books [...] And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:11-15

Just from a simple reading of that text, I would have to say that those who were not qualified to rise with the blessed, holy and priestly saints had to wait a thousand years. They missed the initiation of God's Kingdom, and any participation in it. The clear and literal deduction must include a number of those who [i]were[/i] saved, but who lived lives without any significant distinction that would have earned them the reward of a first resurrection, and were therefore to be judged with all the other dead. They did not rise with the first resurrection, otherwise there would be no need to consult the Lamb's Book of Life. Those who rise in the first resurrection, and because of that rising, reveal the approval and acceptance of being found [i]in[/i] Christ. Their walk, their conduct, character and works qualify them for the resurrection. If we do not rise, then we have not qualified. We were not found worthy for that first resurrection. Paul said that he strove to obtain [i]the[/i] resurrection. It is not automatic, but rather a 'being found worthy.' Those who are mature, those who are overcomers, those who have the character of Christ, who are [i]in[/i] Christ, and who can hear His trump will rise. Those who are not [i]in[/i] Christ, who are immature, untested, unqualified and unworthy, will sleep for a thousand years.

Those whose names are found in the Lamb's Book of Life are going to be saved out of hell, and from being thrown into the Lake of Fire with all the rest of the dead, but I would not want to wait to see if my name was written. There is a possibility that it might have been written, and has since been blotted out. It was so paramount for Paul to qualify for that first resurrection. And we will never be blessed, holy or priestly - the qualifications for the first resurrection - unless we have the kind of determination that Paul had, namely, to be found worthy of that first resurrection.

"And the nations were enraged, and Thy wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to Thy bond-servants the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Thy name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth." - Revelation 11:18

Here is the judgement of God, destroying those who destroy, but giving reward to both [i]small[/i] and [i]great[/i]. There is a reward at every level, and at every grade, proportionate to the work and the investment. To be without reward will be an eternal shame.

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DISCLAIMER: Please don't turn this into a Once Save Always Saved, Calvinism vs Arminianism type thing over a couple of sentences - please keep this about the topic of resurrection! Thanks :)

If you don't fancy reading the whole thing, just the part under THE FIRST RESURRECTION will give you enough of a gist of what is being said.

Thanks,

Adam

Paul knew exactly who his labor and striving was coming from;

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

He who works in us mightily is the perfection in Christ that we attain to be Holy and blessed in the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I am not blessed or holy by anything I do, it is Christ in me that makes me blessed and holy. Now my striving and labor will bring blessedness and holiness, that I might take part in the first resurrection, a priest of God and of Christ and shall reign 1000 years with God and His Christ who is our abode with God the Father, Jesus Christ and the blessed Holy Spirit sent from God at the request of Jesus Christ, The blessed Holy Spirit who will be in us, not just with us, but in us, "New Creatures" forever as Christ in us and the Father will always be in us, "The With is not enough for God, That is why we must be born again to see the Kingdom of God.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Which if studied should read, not "which", but, who for an eternal lifetime be thine own forever.

Who is this Word? John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Born How? John 1:13-14 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This is our birthright as son's of God, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:

The 5 foolish virgins were told "I knew you not" by the LORD, so I guess that rules them out.

Thinking about the warnings that He gave to some of the churches in The Revelation.

Virgin Lock Out by David Wilkerson

Wilkerson points out that these were virgins that were locked out - not whores, but virgins - clean and pure virgins that were only lacking one thing - oil.

Hi Mahoney,

Thank you for your kind rebuke. I wholeheartedly agree with you, though I know my introduction suggested otherwise.

The very reason I posted this is because, despite Art's 'reputation', he wrote this as a man, and is fallible and could well be wrong. I found the doctrine surprising because I hadn't heard it before, which was the very reason I was challenging it.

I'm not someone that believes that as long as someone's intentions or reputation are wholesome then their doctrine is also. Art actually teaches on how not only is sound doctrine important, but that the person speaking the doctrine is 'true' in themselves. But it does work the other way, the doctrine must also be the truth, as revealed by God!

I must admit, I wrote this post in the small hours of the morning, and when I wrote the sentence you brought into question, I hadn't quite finished writing out the chapter, which, as you say, is just straight doctrine.

What made me say what I did was when I read into some elements about being found worthy of Christ. My thoughts were that Art may well be incorrect with regards to this doctrine, but that we need to live lives worthy of our high calling is still challenging regardless.

I realise also that re-reading my post I come across as sounding like I have an unhealthy respect for Art, and as such do not want to risk dirtying [i]his[/i] name more than the Lord's. That is not so, it's just that in [b]challenging[/b] and testing his doctrine I didn't want to come across as someone who is opposed to Art in himself.

I need to be more careful about how I communicate in written form because I agree with [u]all[/u] of what you said in your post.

Thank you for picking me up on it.

Adam

Jesus-is-GOD,

Given the negatives that are mentioned that 'he that overcomes' will avoid, can it be said that this really refers to taking part in a first resurrection out of the [b]saints[/b]?

Eating from the tree of life = in Heaven?
Not be hurt by the second death = avoiding the Lake of Fire.
I will not blot his name out = same as above

The only one of the above that seems to directly fit in with what Art is suggesting is Revelation 26-29: - "...to him I will give power over the nations..."

Art is suggesting that you can not make the first resurrection (i.e. not overcome - maybe?) but still avoid the second death, because, in his words, the second resurrection still contains saints whose names are in the Lamb's book of Life.

What do you think?

How many believe they can live like Christ?

Has anyone lived like Christ in their own strength?

Who's nature do the born again now have?

I never could or never can live a life like Christ.

Only the Incorruptable Seed of the Father that now is my life, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", is the only way a Christ Life can come from me. The Nature of God now living in me, and coming forth as me by the Christ in me, is the only Christ Life available.

"I can do nothing with out Him". As Christ did nothing without the Father, we can do nothing without Christ.

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

This is where the rubber meets the road. Phill 4:13; I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

"through" is not enough, It must be, ""in," at, (up-)on, by, etc.:

This is my fixed position in time, space and matter, Strong's Greek Dictionary
1722. en
Search for G1722 in KJVSL
en en en
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); "in," at, (up-)on, by, etc.:

So it is Christ in me coming forth as me that makes us who we are in Christ. Nothing, WE, do, but what Christ has done on the Cross and by His resurrection Power still working in the life of the believer, by the Holy Spirit, Christ as us that makes us son's of God and Christ-ones, Christians.

In Christ: Phillip

In Christ: Phillip

Hello. Might I suggest something different, which I believe does far more justice to the text:

The first resurrection is regeneration.

The confusion has to do with a poor division of the text into verses.

Look at this idea in the text, with what I (and I believe most pre-1800's commentators) hold to be the proper form:

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Rev. 20:4-6

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead [aka, the unsaved people] lived not again [that is, resurrected for judgment unto hell, Daniel 12:2-3] until the thousand years were finished.

[Now a change of subject, in contrast to the unsaved. He will instruct us about regenerate people who have been raised from the death of trespasses and sins through faith in Christ.]

v.5 This is the first resurrection. v.6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

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Seems very plain. If it weren't for our culture and the bad versification, I don't imagine many would hold Art's view.

Love in Christ.

Quote:

"""He said, The words that I speak and the works that I do - are not mine but the Father's.

We cannot get there by hearing "we need do nothing".

We need to be in constant 'communion' with HIM and total dependence on hearing HIM."""

Then we must say the works we do are not mine but the works of Jesus Christ in me. We need do everything we Hear from Him. We have ears to hear and eyes to see, but fall short in faith to believe that the Christ in us is our life and it is He that working in us to do the greater works for the Kingdom of God, not signs wonders and gifts as our premis. It is Christ that will do the works in us when they are needed for the Kingdom, for it is the Holy Spirit that severly distributes the gifts as He pleases for the Body of Christ. How bad we have been deceived that it is us that does the works of the Gifts that God is the only one that give them to men and they work by His Holy Spirit to fulfill His great plan.

Eph 1:1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

This is what is missing in the Church, but not in the Body of Christ His Church, for it His working in us that makes us son's able to do the works greater than He did, to fulfill the dispensation of God. Which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Who's works work in us mightily according to His working? This is our Labour. Presenting every man perfect in Christ by His workings, the ministry of reconciliation;

This is our righteousness the world should see. Him in us walking on this earth in all our brothers and sisters and reconciling all those the Father send Christ to for salvation by Faith through Grace.

2 Corinthians 5:19-21 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This is our thanks and walking papers, trust in Christ and let His works shine through us as His works, if we believe the scriptures by Faith through Grace unto the kingdom of God where we already dwell in the Heavenlies in Christ Jesus our Lord and He in us, coming forth as us.

Colossians 1:12-29 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Paul says it is His working which worketh in us mightly that will present every man perfect in Christ Jesus, This is our Lobour, to fill up, Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

In my flesh for His body's sake? which is the church which is behind in the afflictions of Christ in our flesh. He will do the works in us that bring forth the glory in Christ in us to the Glory of the Father. Our work is much more that just keeping the Law, but spreading the Gospel of Christ in you the hope of Glory, which is given for usward that we might be the instruments as Gods sons for His good pleasure.

WE can do nothing, He in us can do all thing through us if we believe He is doing them and we are His friends folling His lead and direction for the works of the Body of Christ for the kingdom of God and all who believe and will believe on Jesus Christ as the Son of God unto salvation.

ph 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In Christ: Phillip

Re:
I stressed that it is HIS working "through" us - but HE needs our co-operation because we are not a robot-bride.

How can we be robots with the living glorified, resurrected and by birthing, having this Son of God in us, the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, literally the Sperma of God which has brought forth in new birth a new creature in Christ Jesus

 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Ro 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Ro 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who did Paul minister to but the new creatures in Christ, Gentiles or Jews that the Father has given the Son.