Has anyone done much studying on the tetragrammaton? (a couple unanswered questions still)

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anonymity Apr 25, 2009

Has anyone done much studying on the tetragrammaton or the name of God YHWH?

I know the Jews didn't use His name but did they ever so we know at least how they pronounced it?

Doesn't exodus tell us what it means in saying "I am that I am"? If this is the case and it is rightly translated would it not be fair to say that whatever God said His name was the point was that He was who He was and therefore there is really no name to give to Him for He is all encompassing His name is mercy His name is Lord ect? If such is the case and love encompasses all attributes can we then say that Love is God's name?

S

sojourner7 Apr 25, 2009

HIS Name so sacred the Jews dare not speak it.
But GOD is known to those who seek HIM and His
glory and His Will by many names; covenant names
as El Shaddai{One Who Suffices} Elohim {Creator}
and Adonai {LORD}. Ann Spangler wrote a very
good book on the Names of GOD.

sermonindex Apr 25, 2009

"laShem or HaShem", which means The Name.
They don't use the name the Messianic Gentiles use - "Yahweh" - I think they can be put off by that. Better to just say G-D, if you keep to some form of Christianized Judiasm. I wouldn't want to insult anyone who holds His Name as sacred as it is by my trying to use ~~[i]~~their[/i] own language.

sermonindex Apr 25, 2009

Many orthodox Jews will say the Name of God as such "HaShem" (Ha- the....Shem, Name)....you'll hear this, "Baruch(Bless) HaShem".

If there are any Gentile followers of Jesus, that want a really good glimpse into little seen (or understood) world of orthodox rabbinical Judaism in Israel, you might want to rent this delightful film, entitled, "Ushpizin" (The Guest) Written and starring orthodox Jews, it's a very good movie, you'll realize how close, yet so far they are, and you will see many many similarities, to how many us lead daily life.

In Jesus' love, neil

~~[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqm_og7edvE]~~a clip from "Ushpizin"[/url]

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anonymity Apr 26, 2009

All,

thanks for all your comments.

Natan,

thanks for the video link I will have to watch it it looks interesting. Once again I am thankful for your insightful info on the Jewish culture.

Other,

It seems crazy to me that the way that the name of God was written has been lost! I understand that it is out of reverence that it was not written or spoken but it also seems irreverent to lose it at the same time. I just wonder if there are some Jews or others who do not see it as irreverent to use and therefore stored it whether textually or by oral tradition or some rabbinical writing.

A couple of my questions are still out there. One being does the Name not mean "I am that I am" therefore it is more of an all encompassing title as opposed to a certain name since names are usually descriptive and to describe God would be a great task therefore instead of saying My name is Savior, or Mercy, He said I am that I am since He is many and all things good and I do not mean in a pantheistic sense?

sermonindex Apr 26, 2009

You said "it seems crazy to me...."

Jesus came to seek and to save those that are lost - His lost sheep and commanded us to do the same - so I'd say we probably would do best to take the mind of Paul on this subject ....

1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Why 'offend' for our own thoughts/sakes and risk losing any by what we allow for ourselves or not allow for others. Romans 14.

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anonymity Apr 26, 2009

JIG,

I think it is okay and well to not use God's name in reverence and that there is a place for that but I don't think we should never use it. So I think it is a wrong extreme therefore I think it crazy.

I don't think me thinking this will really stumble many people especially since I am mainly thinking it.

If you are talking about me wanting to use God's name then I think I will still use it whether it stumbles some or not. I mean if some false religion was stumbled when we said Jesus' name then I do not believe most of us would stop using His name.

At the same time I would be wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove and be sensitive to it.

So I think we have to make a discernment on what we should and should not do that will stumble people. Mainly I will do all that I "can" within conscience to not offend.

I would also note that trying to not offend people can lead to mega church type mentalities and should be watched out for though there is also good in many such concepts but that it a totally different subject.

I also think that one of the things that Jesus would do is rebuke some for making a tradition of men such as not using God's name because it is not under the law so even if I were to be under the law for the sake of the Jew I would not need to do this.

My main point though is that I would desire that the name of God not be lost that is my main qualm. I am still trying to figure out if this was really a name or an all encompassing title or one of His many names ect...

sermonindex Apr 27, 2009

So you're concerned that we'll lose the Name of GOD. Interesting.
If you do a Search on this one 'name', you can read the hundred or so differing etymologies, then you can take your pick as so many others have done.
Since reverence etc is not a problem for you - His Name is not "JIG" neither.

A

anonymity Apr 27, 2009

Jesus is God,

Yeah I was concerned that the Name of God had been lost. Though I am not really sure it is specifically His name per se as I have explained. That is what everyone has been saying. I know people have deciphered it as Jehovah, Yahweh, ect. I am not sure in detail about the validity of all these so therefore I was posting to get some input. I didn't know there were hundreds. So, IF no one really knows for sure then it has been lost possibly.

IF you are saying that I am saying that I do not care about reverence I think you are being a bit extreme in interpreting my words. Also, IF you are saying that I think that is pretty off of you.

When I wrote JIG I was abbreviating your title to let you know I was writing to you. IF this is a problem for you as well I think you are once again being extreme I mean many often write H.S. for Holy Spirit.

sermonindex Apr 27, 2009

No, it doesn't surprise me that you don't understand. Most cannot understand how Paul loved his fellow Jews enough to be willing to go to hell for their salvation.
I think we should end this conversation in His Love.
I wish you Peace in your Search on this one Name.

R

RobertW Apr 27, 2009

I know the Jews didn't use His name but did they ever so we know at least how they pronounced it?

Some believe that one of the things the messiah would do when He came was to teach them the proper way to pronounce YHWH. There are no vowels so any pronunciation is speculation at best.

But as regards the use of Hashem, it is important to realize that God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles when we fall into sin and give the enemies an occasion to 'blaspheme the name of God.'

sermonindex Apr 27, 2009

In the old world, Genesis speaks of a day when "men began to call upon the Name of the Lord". In the days of the garden, Adam evidently called him something.

I think it must have been something like "Father!", as Jesus taught, that when we pray, "Our Father" was enough, and when we are Baptized, in the Name of Father...Son, and Holy Spirit. "Lord", is a word that associates our Faith with the Creator, and Jesus said; "When you behold Me, you behold the Father!"

When we say that Jesus is Lord, we believe that the Father is in Jesus, just as He said...they are One and the same...though in deed separate in Personality.

It is written that at "the Name of Jesus every knee shall bow!" He is the Same who walked with Adam in the cool of the evening, and the same who stated, "Before Abraham, "I AM!"

As we read David, with his enormous treasure of worship and intimacy, we see him say "God", or Lord, [in English ]often. I don't think he was hung up on words being too holy. I'm sure Jahweh was fine, or the other revelatory titles of the Father...and it seemed that he got results. God loved him back.

A

anonymity Apr 27, 2009

RW,

There are no vowels so any pronunciation is speculation at best.

From what I understand there are only a couple variations of ways we can use the vowels I think. But then again I wonder I believe I heard that Hebrew does not even have vowels so I do not know what to make of all this?

Some believe that one of the things the messiah would do when He came was to teach them the proper way to pronounce YHWH

That is an interesting thought. I will have to look into that. I think the word Kurios is used. From what I am told in the OT the word LORD is YHWH but I wonder why it is so in the NT. I mean did Jesus only use the word Lord or did the writers continue to follow the tradition of not using the Name or was it only the work of the translators or what? I think the word God and Lord are by definition similar.

But as regards the use of Hashem, it is important to realize that God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles when we fall into sin and give the enemies an occasion to 'blaspheme the name of God.'

So they can blaspheme His name even if they do not know it. Just by claiming the God of Abraham His name is blasphemed.

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anonymity Apr 27, 2009

BT,

as Jesus taught, that when we pray, "Our Father" was enough,

This is a good point. I also thought that Father is one of the great names and also sufficient in that it is what He mainly is to us. Many of us have fathers and we never or rarely call them by name.

When we say that Jesus is Lord

Good point as well.

I don't think he was hung up on words being too holy.

This is a GOOD point if the original patriarchs and so forth would use the name then there is no sense in us not pernouncing it or writing it.

A

anonymity May 3, 2009

Okay so I am pretty sure that God did not want us to forget His name by trying to be reverent in a way in which we lose it by not writing it or saying it since He said in Exodus 3:15 that we are to ~~[b]~~remember[/b] it forever.

I also think that the name "I am that I am" is given since names are descriptive and to describe God completely is impossible by man.

I still am trying to figure out a couple things though.

1.
I have heard the name interpreted "I am that I am" and "to be" or "the becoming one". Also when I look at the Strong's concordance it seems to be 3 words I am, that, I am. So which one is correct so that I can know the meaning? Is it I am that I am, to be, the becoming one, 3 words or one name?

2.
If there are 3 different words how do we know that these are the right words if there are letters missing?

3.
I was also told that the scribes took out every other letter. We try to replace them with vowels. But the Hebrew language has no vowels. So how does that make sense? Why would we put vowels in a place where there were none? (sorry if this is a stupid question)

4.
If we know the meaning of the name how can we if we don't have all the letters? If we have somehow deciphered what the words were then why don't we know how to pronounce those words?

sermonindex May 3, 2009

What I love about Ex 3:15 is that HE is called 'ĕlôhîym ~~[b]~~5[/b] times and that's the Plural of GOD, or Deity. The one "LORD" [H3068] in that verse is what most call Jehovah [Yehovah].

"The God/Elohiym of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" is again repeated in vs 16.

Elohiym is one of my favorite Names of GOD as HE started Genesis with it. "In the beginning Elohiym created ..."

Here is LORD = Yehovah from Strong's - H3068
יהוה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.

So if you look in your Strong's at H1961, H3050 and H3069 you'll have the answer for Yehovah.

What I can't wait for is to find out HIS Name at the time of Rev 19:12. Amen! :-)

sermonindex May 3, 2009

I'm seeing that you are refering to Vs 14 though with the "I AM".

Exo 3:14 And God H430 said unto Moses, I AM H1961 THAT H834 I AM: H1961 and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM H1961 hath sent me unto you.

Strong's
H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

sermonindex May 3, 2009

As sacred as the names of Yahweh and Jehovah are, the name of Jesus is the only name that has the power to move mountains and set the captive free.

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anonymity May 3, 2009

Oh okay, so there were 3 different names. Elohiym, YHVH or YHWH, and Hawyah.

I thought that I AM THAT I AM was YHWH.

So I believe he was saying that the I AM THAT I AM/Hawyah was his name.

Whereas Lord/YHWH and God/Elohiym were more like titles.

So I wonder a couple things about these definitions.

Like where did they get them from?

I am not sure they had a dictionary to refer to. So we would then therefore get the meaning from the context and usage.

It seems that the three are defined somewhat similarly.

Maybe he said YHWH God to distinguish from other false God's?

Or maybe it does just mean master or lord?

Also, is it YHWH or VH?

Lastly, the question remains how did they define YHWH if they did not have the whole spelling? Did they just define it by context and usage? maybe they don't really know what it means completely? or is there a word in an ancient Hebrew dictionary that can be matched like a crossword puzzle or something that is similar in spelling and would fit?

And, can someone explain to me this whole vowel thing? Why doesn't the Hebrew language have vowels? If it doesn't have vowels then how can we fill in the missing letters with vowels?

A

anonymity May 3, 2009

What I can't wait for is to find out HIS Name at the time of Rev 19:12. Amen!

Yes this is an interesting and awing thing. I also read that we will receive a new name. I have not quite understood why we will be the only one to know it. Maybe His new name is like the new song that is given because of a new work or the new covenant. Or maybe sort of like Abram to Abraham once He finally sits completed as King.

As sacred as the names of Yahweh and Jehovah are, the name of Jesus is the only name that has the power to move mountains and set the captive free.

Jesus is God therefore it is another name of God. Names are descriptive unlike many names today in western culture. The name Jesus was descriptive of the most gracious aspect of God namely when He took on flesh in the Gospel. Nonetheless there was much grace in the original creating of all things and since YHWH and Jesus are one and the same I would say that the names are equal though in some sense distinct. I think it still an important thing to study especially as I remarked earlier that it was to be "remembered" throughout all generations.