Adam's sin...our guilt?

C

ceedub May 1, 2009

I'm brand new here but this looks like a great place to discuss. I'm curious if there's any others out there who have a problem as I do with the extent that some (even many commentators that I really admire) take the doctrine of original sin to. By that, I understand that there is a far reaching effect that includes death, the sin nature and imminent condemnation but for the grace of God. But too many passages indicate that God doesn't pass guilt until we ourselves sin.

I understand and agree with Cov't headship, but not to the degree that we are held guilty for the same crimes committed by the head. ie: Germans under Hitler were judged with many consequences that their leader brought them under, yet no one would hold them individually guilty for the same crimes.

I'm speaking on Romans 5:12 -21 in the near future and was wondering if there were any thoughts on this widely disputed topic?

S

sojourner7 May 1, 2009

Since all have descended from Adam; we all have
inherited his nature toward sin. God has given
to men the will to choose; but we by nature do
not choose God's ways and God's will!!

C

ceedub May 1, 2009

As I said, I agree entirely with the effect on Adam's posterity of the inherited sin nature. But when the books are opened at the great throne judgement, it is our 'deeds' that are judged (outside of Christ) to condemnation, not Adam's deed. Consider the parable of the 'sour grapes' that God forbid Israel to use anymore. 'The SOUL that SINS shall die' seems to indicate a need for personal transgression before actual GUILT will be assessed by God. I know as a consequence of Adam's sin death came upon all men, but guilt?

Why did God allow those under a certain age to enter the promised land? It seems that though they were judged in a general sense with Israel, they were not held personally responsible for the sins of their fathers.

If a police pulled you over and issued you a ticket for speeding before you actually did, citing the fact that you have a sin nature and assuredly will at some point, though you'd agree with his assessment, would that ticket indicting you for personal guilt of the offence be just?

F

fuehrerbe21 May 1, 2009

ie: Germans under Hitler were judged with many consequences that their leader brought them under, yet no one would hold them individually guilty for the same crimes.

But they were guilty nonetheless. If you are guilty of sin, no matter what type of sin, you are guilty. Because God is holy, he can't be in the presence of any type of sin. Therefore, we will be judged and if it weren't for the blood of the Lamb, we would be condemned.

But too many passages indicate that God doesn't pass guilt until we ourselves sin.

Would you subscribe to the understanding that newborns, infants, or even children are not sinful?

All have sinned and fall short of God's glorious standard.

C

ceedub May 1, 2009

I wouldn't disagree that infants are sinful, but I would assert that upon conception (life beginning) the newborn has not sinned (active tense) nor would there be 'any deeds done in the flesh' by which that newborn could be judged by, citing God's revealed standard for judgement.

I have trouble believing that 2 moments after conception, should I miscarry, I need be sent to an eternal torment for what Adam did.

I am a strong believer in original sin and all that it carries (death, nature etc.) yet I don't see scripture saying that Adam's guilt for his personal transgression carries to us. Death yes, but not guilt. I don't believe a conceived newborn is guilty and worthy of hell.

Is it a mercy when God takes a life before they can sin?

sermonindex May 1, 2009

~~[b]~~All of us sin (by thought and or deed)and fall short of the glory of God.[/b]

All of us are descended from Adam, and in Adam all sin. All of us are either in the first Adam, or in the last Adam, Jesus Christ. All of us are conceived in sin, and have inherited the sin nature of Adam.

(1 Cor 15:22)
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

He who knew no sin became sin for us!
2 Cor 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him

In the Old Testament, when God set up the Sacrifical System as a type of the final Sacrifice for all sin, Jesus Christ, the sacrifices He created are as follows:

If you were a Jew, living at the time of the Tabernacle, or later living at the time of the Temple, you had to sacrifice animals to "cover" your sins. Actually the blood of the animal sacrifices was applied to "cover" your sins. The sins were not not taken away, they were only covered until Messiah would come to take away all sin, for all time, for those who believe on Him.

~~[b]~~Mandatory[/b] Sacrifices were:

1. The SIN Offering (Sacrifice) -for our sin nature.

2. The TRESPASS Offering (Sacrifice)- for known and unknown sins.

There were 3 other Sacrifices that were ~~[b]~~VOLUNTARY[/b] sacrifices (offerings). You would participate in these sacrifices to God because you wanted a closer walk with HIM. These sacrifices were:

3.The Burnt Offering (Sacrifice)

4..The Meal Offering (actually part ot the Burnt offering, ie Sacrifice),

5. The PEACE offering (Sacrifice)

In only the Peace offering was the offerer (the sinner) allowed to eat the sacrifice, and it had to be completely eaten within 3 days.

Also, all sacrifices were salted.

Another thing to consider, that bares witness to our inherited sin nature:

1 Cor 15:50
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Until we receive our new glorified bodies of flesh and bone, just like the resurrected body of jesus Christ, we cannot be in the presence of God. The reason, we are sinners by nature, and our hearts are deceitfully wicked. Also, our bodies consist of flesh and blood.

Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have ~~[b]~~flesh and bones[/b] as you see I have.” (Luke 24:39)

Sincerely,

Walter

ceedub wrote:
I wouldn't disagree that infants are sinful, but I would assert that upon conception (life beginning) the newborn has not sinned (active tense) nor would there be 'any deeds done in the flesh' by which that newborn could be judged by, citing God's revealed standard for judgement.
I have trouble believing that 2 moments after conception, should I miscarry, I need be sent to an eternal torment for what Adam did.
I am a strong believer in original sin and all that it carries (death, nature etc.) yet I don't see scripture saying that Adam's guilt for his personal transgression carries to us. Death yes, but not guilt. I don't believe a conceived newborn is guilty and worthy of hell.
Is it a mercy when God takes a life before they can sin?

T

theopenlife May 1, 2009

Hi, ceedub. Glad to have you joining us here.

Romans 5:12 says, "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Death is a consequence of personal sin, as evidenced by the use of "for." The logical flow is that, if not all had sinned, not all would die.

Human mortality is a sign of personal sin - "death... for all have sinned." Only sinful humans die, and all humans die. Even infants die, often prior to discernible self-awareness. Thus I believe the imputation of Adam's sin and the corrupt nature passed to all men is such as merits wrath, apart from any subsequent individual acts of trespass. The guilt applies to infants, et al, though God is free to show grace to whom He will. God regenerated John the Baptist while yet in the womb.

May I ask another question?

All humans sin in noticeable ways from a very early age. Do they receive these habits by example, or are sinful inclinations a part of their nature? I think we agree, their very nature is inclined to all manner of sin.

Is the nature something other than the essence of the person? Can we think of ourselves apart from our nature, or is that not a description of who we are? And if that nature is sinful, is the person not then guilty regardless of their self-awareness of sin?

I would submit that the very nature of a person born in Adam is corrupt. "We were by nature children of wrath," [Eph 2:3] that is, we were under wrath from our personal genesis because of the nature we possessed. Without having consciously committed sins, we were nonetheless sinful beings.

Like an acorn which is always and only in the process of becoming an oak, and never another sort of tree, even so all men begin as sinners and grow into monsters of iniquity. The first bud and blossoms may hardly be apparent, but the sinful nature of the plant is enough to be culpable.

The only reason an infant may not commit intentional sin is that he is not developed enough to do so: the will to sin is present before the means are, and God judges the heart as well the outward actions.

To quote John Wesley,

" (6.) He expressly says, ' We were children of wrath even as others, by nature,' or from our birth. He does not say, We became so by education, or by imitation, or by custom in sinning; but, to show us when it is that we commence sinners, by what means we become ' children of wrath,' whence it is that we are so prone to evil from our infancy, and to imitate bad rather than good examples, he says,' We were children of wrath by nature:' we were born fallen creatures; we came into the world sinners, and, as such, liable to wrath, in consequence of the fell of our first father."
" And yet it is allowed, we are not so guilty by nature, as a course of actual sin afterward makes us. But we are, antecedent to that course, ' children of wrath ;' liable to some degree of wrath and punishment. Here, then, from a plain text, taken in its obvious sense, we have a clear evidence both of what divines term, original sin imputed, and of original sin inherent. The former is the sin of Adam, so far reckoned ours as to constitute us in some degree guilty ; the latter, a want of original righteousness, and a corruption of nature; whence it is, that from our infancy we are averse to what Is good, and propense to what is evil." (p. 33.)"

M

Miccah May 1, 2009

ceedub wrote:

I am a strong believer in original sin and all that it carries (death, nature etc.) yet I don't see scripture saying that Adam's guilt for his personal transgression carries to us. Death yes, but not guilt. I don't believe a conceived newborn is guilty and worthy of hell.
Is it a mercy when God takes a life before they can sin?

Welcome for SI!

God is soverign. He can and does as He pleases.

But to base someone's salvation (i.e. children in aborted in the womb, miscariages, etc...) on another person's sin/actions is pure false teaching.

I strongly believe that the Lord did not make people for wrath based on His word alone. To be fair, there are schools of thought both ways, but I will error on the side of the Lord's mercy and grace each time.

Blessings. :-)

G

ginnyrose May 2, 2009

ceedub,
Welcome to SI!

In reading your questions, I sense there must be a situation troubling you that you are asking these questions...right? or wrong?

Blessings,
ginnyrose

C

ceedub May 2, 2009

So from your reply I take Eph 2:3 to read...

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The verse you quoted in defense of imputed guilt through Adam actually says the opposite. It speaks of our 'conversation', it says we were 'fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind' even as others. I think the 'children of wrath' Paul speaks of here are obviously those who have transgressed God's law and therefore worthy of wrath. These 'children' have some 'deeds done in the flesh' to answer for.

I did try at the early posts to make it totally clear I believe that through Adam we inherit the sin nature. But when you make the comment...

Human mortality is a sign of personal sin - "death... for all have sinned." Only sinful humans die, and all humans die. Even infants die, often prior to discernible self-awareness. Thus I believe the imputation of Adam's sin and the corrupt nature passed to all men is such as merits wrath, apart from any subsequent individual acts of trespass.

How then do you explain Christ's death who knew no sin? Does there need to be personal sin to die? (In advance I'm fully aware of the doctrine of the atonement and the wrath of the Father for the sins of God's people)

If Christ could die who never sinned, can a new life moments after conception?

Again, the question is specifically, 'What are God's scriptural guidelines for guilt as opposed to 'death in Adam' which we inherit?

C

ceedub May 2, 2009

In reading your questions, I sense there must be a situation troubling you that you are asking these questions...right? or wrong?

Right. I'll be preaching on Romans 5:12-21 soon, and I find great dissention between the commentators. :-)

C

ceedub May 2, 2009

How do you make the quotes appear small and centred?

sermonindex May 2, 2009

Hello ceedub!

~~[b]~~Do dead babies & children go to heaven if they have never accepted Christ as Lord? How about newborns?[/b]

The teaching is in 2nd Samuel, Chapter 12 when David’s newborn son dies.

22. And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23. But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast?~~[b]~~ can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.[/b]

In Israel, one was ~~[b]~~not[/b] considered to be an adult, to be accountable, until the age of 20, when all men were required to join the army.

All children are covered by God’s grace until they become of age, and are accountable before God and man. With some people, that age of accountability can be 6 years old, and with others it may be 19, and for others it never comes. Woe to those over the age of accountability who have not made a decision for Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior of their lives.

I truly believe that heaven is filled with babies and children, even older children, that have died before the age of maturity (whatever age that is---God knows), before they have made a conscious decision to accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior, and His work on the cross.~~[b]~~ Yet, they are saved by God’s grace, just as David’s son was saved by God's grace and waiting for him in Abrahams bosom until David would join him there many years later.[/b]

Sincerley,

Walter

ceedub wrote:
In reading your questions, I sense there must be a situation troubling you that you are asking these questions...right? or wrong?
Right. I'll be preaching on Romans 5:12-21 soon, and I find great dissention between the commentators. :-)

C

ceedub May 2, 2009

Do dead babies & children go to heaven if they have never accepted Christ as Lord? How about newborns?

I hold to the same interpretation myself. But my question remains regarding original sin and its effect on mankind...

Does God impute guilt on Adam's posterity, or just the separation, physical death and sin nature?

I think this is the crux of the original question.

I don't think it's splitting hairs, for it speaks a great deal regarding how God judges mankind.

In MacArthur's commentary, he remarks this question as 'mind boggling' and I have to agree, though I lean towards no imputed guilt, and maintain there is separation, physical death and an inherited sin nature.

I appreciate so many responses.

sermonindex May 2, 2009

Hello ceedub:

It is very simple. Those who ~~[b]~~will not[/b] accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior will spend eternity with Satan and his fallen angels in Hell, ~~[b]~~without the presence of God.

Those that accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior will spend eternity in the presence of God, and will be re-made in the image of the Savior they worship---in the savior that saved them from the wrath to come.[/b]

Jesus Christ had more to say about hell, and what it actually consisted of than anyone else in the Bible. Why, we might ask? ~~[b]~~Because He created it[/b] for Satan and his fallen angels--a place that fallen man, who would not accept the free gift of salvation by His (Christ's) Work, would also be destined to live for endless eternity:

~~[b]~~43. ........it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [/b] 45. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46.~~[b]~~ Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [/b] 47. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out:~~[b]~~ it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.[/b]

Only by the belief and acceptance in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is ~~[b]~~humanity[/b] free from the eternity of Hell. Only by belief and acceptance in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are we free to spend eternity with Him in Heaven.

He who knew no sin became sin ---for all those that believe.

Those who believe in the Savior, and the Work that He did are saved, and will spend eternal life with Him in a "New Heaven and a New Earth".

Those who reject Him will spend eternal life ~~[b]~~without[/b] Him, and will forever be in the presence of Satan and his fallen Angels in Hell.

Sincerely,

Walter

ceedub wrote:
Do dead babies & children go to heaven if they have never accepted Christ as Lord? How about newborns?
I hold to the same interpretation myself. But my question remains regarding original sin and its effect on mankind...
Does God impute guilt on Adam's posterity, or just the separation, physical death and sin nature?
I think this is the crux of the original question.
I don't think it's splitting hairs, for it speaks a great deal regarding how God judges mankind.
In MacArthur's commentary, he remarks this question as 'mind boggling' and I have to agree, though I lean towards no imputed guilt, and maintain there is separation, physical death and an inherited sin nature.
I appreciate so many responses.

C

ceedub May 2, 2009

It is very simple. Those who will not accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior will spend eternity with Satan and his fallen angels in Hell, without the presence of God.

Those that accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior will spend eternity in the presence of God, and will be re-made in the image of the Savior they worship---in the savior that saved them from the wrath to come.

I don't know if I'd call it 'simple'. My original question still isn't answered. Calvin and Mathew Henry both believe that guilt is imputed to Adam's posterity. MacArthur believes the same citing that there was no law between Adam and Moses (Romans commentary). Albert Barnes and Stuart don't believe that guilty is imputed but rather the nature or propensity to sin. John Bunyan believes the law was there, but only in the hearts of men (ie Cain's countenance and Romans 1) and therefore were guilty of their own sin, not Adam's.

waltern wrote:
Hello ceedub:
It is very simple. Those who ~~[b]~~will not[/b] accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior will spend eternity with Satan and his fallen angels in Hell, ~~[b]~~without the presence of God.
Those that accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior will spend eternity in the presence of God, and will be re-made in the image of the Savior they worship---in the savior that saved them from the wrath to come.[/b]

Jesus Christ had more to say about hell, and what it actually consisted of than anyone else in the Bible. Why, we might ask? ~~[b]~~Because He created it[/b] for Satan and his fallen angels--a place that fallen man, who would not accept the free gift of salvation by His (Christ's) Work, would also be destined to live for endless eternity:
~~[b]~~43. ........it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [/b] 45. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46.~~[b]~~ Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [/b] 47. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out:~~[b]~~ it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.[/b]
Only by the belief and acceptance in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is ~~[b]~~humanity[/b] free from the eternity of Hell. Only by belief and acceptance in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are we free to spend eternity with Him in Heaven.
He who knew no sin became sin ---for all those that believe.
Those who believe in the Savior, and the Work that He did are saved, and will spend eternal life with Him in a "New Heaven and a New Earth".
Those who reject Him will spend eternal life ~~[b]~~without[/b] Him, and will forever be in the presence of Satan and his fallen Angels in Hell.

Sincerely,
Walter

ceedub wrote:
Do dead babies & children go to heaven if they have never accepted Christ as Lord? How about newborns?
I hold to the same interpretation myself. But my question remains regarding original sin and its effect on mankind...
Does God impute guilt on Adam's posterity, or just the separation, physical death and sin nature?
I think this is the crux of the original question.
I don't think it's splitting hairs, for it speaks a great deal regarding how God judges mankind.
In MacArthur's commentary, he remarks this question as 'mind boggling' and I have to agree, though I lean towards no imputed guilt, and maintain there is separation, physical death and an inherited sin nature.
I appreciate so many responses.

It is very simple. Those who will not accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior will spend eternity with Satan and his fallen angels in Hell, without the presence of God.

C

ceedub May 2, 2009

Sorry Waltern, I'm making a mess with the quote function! Thanks for your patience.

sermonindex May 2, 2009

Albert Barnes and Stuart don't believe that guilty is imputed but rather the nature or propensity to sin. John Bunyan believes the law was there, but only in the hearts of men (ie Cain's countenance and Romans 1) and therefore were guilty of their own sin, not Adam's.

I agree with these guys.

Adam could have eaten from the tree of Life and lived eternally in that innocent state but "he did it his way."

Cain did it his way.

Job, who was chronologically the first author of our Bibles, did it GOD's way. His friends had a knowledge of the Holy from "somewhere".

"Doing it our way" - no matter what it is - good or evil is "sin"

Rejecting GOD in the flesh's sacrifice of Himself for our independent-prideful-selves is "doing it our way".

Romans 1 says that HE does make Himself known, but men would rather do it "their way".

We battle "doing it our way" everyday - even as "Saints". We walk through or in "intellect" or "emotion" more than we walk in His Spirit - wholly dependent on HIM. That's ~~[i]~~still[/i] the taking from the 'Tree of knowledge' rather than the Tree or Word of Life, which is only from HIM. We run on that "autonomous" nature more than we realize.

It really started with Satan, with his "independent-prideful-self" wanting to do the life GOD gave him, "his way."

Edit to add: Remembering to mention the gang in Heb 11 that were before Christ.

C

Christinyou May 2, 2009

We cannot get around scripture. Through one man sin entered the world and all die. Through One Man sin is crucified on the Cross as we were with Christ, leaving us to the Father no longer in Adam but in Christ.

Romans 5:1-21 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Even in our own sin, Adam's sin prevails, for we all die. Only in Christ can any life. It is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us.

Galatians 2:18-21 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

in Christ: Phillip

sermonindex May 2, 2009

The Christian believer that relies on the New Testament, the “New Blood Covenant” and spends no time in the Old Testament, the “Old Blood Covenant” is like a man with two legs, who chooses to only walk on one leg. He thinks he is walking with his one leg, but in reality he is only hopping around, and has impaired his walk by not using his other leg, that is useless.

In the Garden of Eden, at the beginning, after Adam & Eve sinned, God,~~[b]~~ before banishing them from Eden and from His presence, God made garments of skin for them[/b] (Gen 3:21)

Where did he get these from? Can an animal live without his skin? Since we know that sin brought death, it is not fair to reason that animals were killed so that the shame of Adam and Eve could be covered? God also expelled them from the garden. At this time God told Adam and Eve the consequences of their actions, one of which was physical death. To the serpent, who tempted them, he said, "'And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and hers, he will crush your head and you will strike his heel.'" (Genesis 3:15)

Here God promises that the power of Satan will be crushed through the seed of the woman. How will this happen? Has God given us further instructions concerning this? Yes!

In the next chapter we read of Cain and Abel, when Cain and Abel brought sacrifices to God. ~~[b]~~"In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. But Abel brought fat portions from some of the first-born of his flock. The Lord looked with favour on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favour. So Cain was angry and his face was downcast. Then the Lord said to Cain, "'Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; It desires to have you, but you must master it.'" (Genesis 4:3-7)[/b]

~~[b]~~Why did God accept Abel's offering but not Cain's? In God's reply to Cain we find the answer to this question. God had obviously given clear instructions to Adam & Eve who gave those same instructions to Cain and Abel concerning what type of sacrifice needed to be offered. Abel brought the correct sacrifice which was an animal from the first-born of the flock-a blood sacrifice. Cain did not bring the correct sacrifice. Cain brought a sacrifice of his own choosing instead of the sacrifice that pleased God.[/b] In the Bible it says, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." (Proverbs 14:12) "By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead." (Hebrews 11:4) A sober warning is also given to those who take the way of Cain. Because of his pride, he rejected God's authority and offered an unacceptable sacrifice.

If we look close,~~[b]~~ the next blood sacrifices that are mentioned are those of Noah,[/b] who is described as follows in (Genesis 4:8 –9)

1) Noah found~~[b]~~ grace[/b] in the eyes of the Lord; 2) Noah was considered a~~[b]~~ just man and perfect in his generations; 3) Noah walked with God[/b]

When the animals entered the ark, the clean animals (those used for sacrifice) entered the ark 7 X 7, while all of the other animals entered 2 X 2.

~~[b]~~The first thing that Noah did upon leaving the ark was to sacrifice to the Lord:[/b]

Genesis 8:20-22 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Mankind (we are all in Adam, and have inherited his sin nature)has sinned against God and brought him shame by disobeying His commands. This sin must be paid for to satisfy God's righteous anger and uphold his justice. God says, ~~[b]~~"The soul who sins is the one who will die." (Ezekiel 18:4b) and "The wages of sin is death . . . ." (Romans 6:23)[/b]

Again, the Old Testament is clear that before the law was established on Mount Sinai, God required a specific type of animal sacrifice to cover the sins of those who believeded on Him.

~~[b]~~In the Book of Job, one of the oldest books in the Bible, we read that as the family priest, he was the one who sacrificed animals for the sins of his children[/b]

(Job 1-5) 1. There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. 2. And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters. 3. His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east. 4. And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. 5. And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that~~[b]~~ Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.[/b]

~~[b]~~[color=660000]The Bible is clear, regardless of what Barnes or any other person has to say. There are only two options for human beings (for God’s creation)-- One is Heaven, in the eternal presence of God, and one is hell, in the eternal absence of God. The only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, to those who BELIEVE IN/ON HIM[/color][/b]

No other options exist, other than Heaven or hell! We are, each of us, on our way to one or the other!

Sincerley,

Walter

ceedub wrote:
It is very simple. Those who will not accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior will spend eternity with Satan and his fallen angels in Hell, without the presence of God.
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I don't know if I'd call it 'simple'. My original question still isn't answered. Calvin and Mathew Henry both believe that guilt is imputed to Adam's posterity. MacArthur believes the same citing that there was no law between Adam and Moses (Romans commentary). Albert Barnes and Stuart don't believe that guilty is imputed but rather the nature or propensity to sin. John Bunyan believes the law was there, but only in the hearts of men (ie Cain's countenance and Romans 1) and therefore were guilty of their own sin, not Adam's.

waltern wrote:
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