Thoughts on dead churches or no dead churches?

Ok, so I have a friend that wrote an article: http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=89763693114&h=w5N80&u=3bPFL&ref=nf and I wanted to get some opinions on it from some other members of the Body of Christ. I am asking, because I feel like I have a check in my spirit concerning the article, but I could be wrong. And if I am wrong, I want to grow and learn. :-)

To be honest I want to respond to the article and share my thoughts that would counter what the author is saying, however I wanted to see first if others thought the article was sound.

I should maybe add a little bit more as to why I feel that the article may bit slightley in error.

The author states: "If we pronounce a church "dead", we are by implication suggesting that we are not, that we are truly alive, that we really know what it means to experience God."

Now I would certianly not want to say that I am perfect and living out my life for Christ to the fullest. I have so much to learn and so many areas to grow in, however, the relationship with the Lord that I do have has allowed me to gain some perspectives on what a Biblical church is, and is not.

He also writes, "Jesus said "for where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them" (Matt. 18:20).
Wherever God's people gather, whenever they gather, however they worship or how aware they are of God, God is there.
God's presence is not contingent on our awareness. Remember Jacob who only after his stairway to heaven dream exclaimed, "Surely the LORD is in this place, and I was not aware of it"(Gen. 28:16). God's presence is often subtle and subversive. Think of the still, small voice Elijah almost didn't hear after the dramatic fire at Carmel. Think of the Son of God coming to earth as a Jewish baby born in a manger almost unnoticed by Herod from his opulent palace. God seems to specialize in being on the scene without fanfare and fireworks."

And I can agree with that, although he is talking about someone who already has a relationship with God (except for the Herod part, of course). What about the non-believer? Do we not stereotypically call them dead? Because only with Christ are they alive.

So, if it is the case that a believer is alive with Christ, then "the church" should be alive and active accordingly and according to the standards set forth in Scripture.

However, I don't see many churches today living and following the standards set forth by the Scriptures. It is because of this that I would call a particular church dead. Not because Christ is dead, but because "the church" isn't alive and operating as it should be.

Thoughts? Or am I in error?

I thought I would get more responses than this.... lol

Ben,

I found this article very sound (and this is from someone (me) who doesn't go to "church" anymore!! LOL [I bet you get LOTS Of people to help you judge this article now !!]

I am guilty of doing the following and you said it exactly this way,"[i]I want to respond to the article and share my thoughts [b]that would counter what the author is saying[/i][/b].

What about it exactly do you disagree with and would like to counter? I humbly ask the next question to you, "did you make it past the first paragraph?" I only ask because I am guilty of doing this many times myself ... reading something that got to me and I base my whole argument on that third sentence and I cannot seem to get past what I read and the argument going on in my head. Does that make sense?

I know nothing about your friend but I believe he has had an epiphany! And I see what he is saying and he has caused me to rethink church. That's pretty good!

When we call our church "dead", too often we are basing our assessment by what we see. And all we see is human activity. We see how people worship or if they don't. We see how many people are coming or if they are. [b][i]We call a church dead because of human inactivity when what makes a church alive is God's activity. And God is always present and working.[/b][/i]

If we are evaluating churches by human activity or its approximation to perfection, we would be more accurate to say that every church is, in a way, dead. It is a relational organism that even at a small size involves structure and order.

"[i][b]Frederick von Hugel said the institution of the church is like the bark on the tree.[/i][/b] There’s no life in the bark. It’s dead wood. But it protects the life of the tree within. And the tree grows and grows. If you take the bark off, it’s prone to disease, dehydration, death. [i][b]So, yes, the church is dead but it protects something alive.[/i][/b] And when you try to have a church without bark, it doesn’t last long. It disappears, gets sick, and it’s prone to all kinds of disease, heresy, and narcissism.” -Eugene Peterson[/i]

(1.)
¶ 1 Wherever God's people gather, whenever they gather, however they worship or how aware they are of God, God is there.
¶ 2 God's presence is not contingent on our awareness.

I hope you reread it with an open mind because I really enjoyed this and I'm going to read more of his stuff. He definitely thinks outside the box!

Ben, My first thought was how does your friend define "the church"? Is it a group of saints who meet regularly which can be defined as the bride of Christ? or is it the social club that goes by the adjective "church"? In answering thus, my mind goes to Paul Washer's sermon "Ten Indictments". Ever hear it? It can be heard here on this site.

The modern social club that calls itself church is full of sin and justifiers of sin. This is not the bride of Christ. The bride of Christ is pure, holy, righteous. It consists of saints which together form a brotherhood of Believers working to build each other up, edify each other, not keep one comfortable in their sin.

My understanding of this issue....hope you get more responses. It is a holiday weekend - folks may be traveling to see mama..:-)

ginnyrose

I agree with it all the way. this man truely listens to the Holy Spirit.

BenBrockway,

To comment on the article would do an injustice to all who read. If they've not dug deeper than this one article they'll not get beyond the surface.

One must first spend a good amount of time on the links which he provides to get an understanding of the mindset which this article originates.

When a discerning one does so, and has knowledge of the so called "ministries" this man is associated with,he will not be deceived by the smooth words presented in the article.

He will rather detect the subtlety of the serpent and his wiles to deceive.

Those whom God has called out are a holy people. This "worship" as they call it is no less than "strange fire" being offered to the thrice holy God.

I tell you,it is not acceptable worship.It and they will be rejected as was Cain and his offering.

As one man once said, "the devil doesn't want to destroy the church,he'd much rather run it."

Here again is just another "church" being mastered by the counterfeit of the Truth. Such a place may be deemed among many others of our day as a "synagogue of satan."

There are many impostors.

Many are deceived and being deceived. It is already evident in the words of one posters reply regarding this man when the poster concludes with these words, "this man truely listens to the Holy Spirit".

Such words could not be more contrary to the Truth.

Another poster replied with discernment asking this pertinent question,"Ben, My first thought was how does your friend define "the church"?"

Yet another poster takes the bait,the hook,the line and the sinker when they reply thus,"I know nothing about your friend but I believe he has had an epiphany!"

I am eternally grateful for my LORD Jesus and His word.

Luke 22:31,32 And Jesus said to Simon: Simon, lo, Satan hath desired to sift thee, as wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith may not fail. And thou also, in time, turn; and confirm thy brethren.

John 17:9,20 And I pray for them; it is not for the world that I pray, but for them whom thou hast given me, for they are thine. And I do not pray concerning these only, but also concerning those who will believe in Me through their word.

I thought it was good article.
the only point I would say is that where the person talks about.
"2. God is always working
In Revelation 2 and 3 , Jesus speaks to 7 churches regarding their forsaken first-love, their endurance in the face of persecution, their idolatry, their immorality, their dying hearts, their fading strength, and their lukewarm faith. Chances are, if you or I went to any of these churches, we might never go back. We might pull out of the parking lot, shaking our heads, saying how sad it is that this once-great church is now dead. And yet...
None of these churches are dead. Even the one he calls "dead", He clarifies by calling them to "strengthen what remains and is about to die" (Rev. 3: "

The church of Ephesus
Rev.2:4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

seems as if Ephesus did not do Rev.2:5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

The Church of Ephesus is no more.
So the Lord removed the church and thats who I will leave it to do the removing of such place's.

Ben,
I suggest you listen to this by Paul Washer (this link is posted on SI's homepage):
sermonindex: Joel Osteen, it's just the Truth by Paul Washer: http://bit.ly/19Y9cs

It may give you more insight to the question you are asking.

ginnyrose