After recently listening to a christian rock albulm that's, let's just say heavier than average, I've started considering the following issue.Chritian rock music...good or bad?The particular band the raised my eyebrows was Stavesacre. I was very impressed with their lyrical content which, in my opinion, would shame many a preacher out there with their call for undiluted surrender to God.Anyone with any thoughts? :smart:
The Bible never uses 'Christian' as an adjective. Can we have a 'Christian' anything?
This is an excellent comment, I must say. . . As we sit under the teaching and preaching of some of the real men of God, it is also appropriate to point out that Tozer and Wilkerson, to mention but two, has some pregnant and penetrating things to say regarding this issue.There is a tread going right now labelled "Entertainment" containing comments by Tozer.Lars
philologos wrote:The Bible never uses 'Christian' as an adjective. Can we have a 'Christian' anything?Here we go again, arguing over "terminology" rather than concepts, and realities.What if I'd named the thread "Can rock music glorify God?" or "Rock music being used as a tool for evangelism?"..would that have been more palatable?The way I see it, people go to concerts for enterainment. People listen to CDs for entertainment. Some people listen to preaching for entertainment.Lets face it, it is nice to listen to something that conforms with our own interpretation of what God is saying, especially if it confronts or contradicts with something that we can't accept or tolerate...whether justified or not.My question was intended to be understood as "Can heavy music that portrays a message that would line up with scripture, without watering down the gospel, glorify God, if the music be of a heavy nature?" Really the question would ask if this could be considered a fushion of something idolatrous with something pure, creating something impure, or can it be considered an "out of the box" meathod of commuicating eternal truth.Is this a Levite working for Micah for 10 shekels and a shirt, or is this the Apostle Paul, refering to the temple of the "unknown god". Mmmmm...so much to consider...even without considering whether "christian" should be used as an adjective or a noun:-P.
My question was intended to be understood as "Can heavy music that portrays a message that would line up with scripture, without watering down the gospel, glorify God, if the music be of a heavy nature?" Really the question would ask if this could be considered a fushion of something idolatrous with something pure, creating something impure, or can it be considered an "out of the box" meathod of commuicating eternal truth.Brother I am not sure what you are exactly referring to.. either if Christian Rock Music (or if there is such a thing as Ron pointed out) is permissible for us to listen to for our personal enjoyment and edificition or if Christian Rock Music is permissible to be used as an contextualization tool for the unsaved or barely church-ed. I am starting to see personally from God for my own walk with Christ that it is permissible but not benefical in all cases. We are to seek perfection and personally I would like to hear the whole truth or to get it in as you said an most un-dilluted form as possible.I encourage you to listen to this message by Keith Daniel. It might come across abit strong and you might say to yourself this is going to far but give it a chance and prayerful consideration, many things this man said in reference to wordly music in the church has really shaped and primarly confirmed my convictions on the matter:The Power of Prayer (video) by Keith Daniel - This is a powerful video preached at brother Bill Gothard's church. This is part of Keith Daniel's 13th visit to America and he gives a solemn warning to the Church of Jesus Christ we must pray before its too late. There is a digression in the sermon on the topic of music but its application finds itself in that the church should not use wordly methods to win the world it will not work! The main thrust of the sermon is preached from ephesians 6 and the emphasis is that the church needs to get into warfare on their knees.Other quotes that are thrown around in the past in these forums pertaining to this topic:"You can't win the world by being like the world, the world will only win you!"-Keith Daniel"Entertainment is the devils subsitute for joy."-Leonard Ravenhill"We need to be a different breed of people on this earth."-Leonard RavenhillI would encourage you to read some materials by A.W. Tozer on this subject. As for the bible we could get into alot of verses and the contexts of society that show the people of God had a signifigant different way of worshipping God through music then the secular culture around them. These are just some of my thoughts.. let me know what your thoughts are on that video if you get a chance brother.
Shall listen to when I get the chance. Just for trivia's sake, I believe that it was Charles Wesley's early hymns that took "drinking songs" from the day, and altered the words, so that people were familiar with the tune of the song.Another interesting thing is the Kieth Daniel, doesn't like modern worship songs. In his sermon on The Book of James, he mentions that the church he's preaching in still sings the "old hymns".So this opens up another fork. Are modern day choruses by the likes of Hillsong, and Hosanna, etc edifying? If so, then where do we draw the line, with bands like Delerious, Third Day and Skillet, being a little heavier than commonly accepted?One common trend, lyrically, that I have noticed, is that the heavier the music, the more scriptural insight there seems to be, with "death metal (as a genre)" bands dealing heavily with repentance and like issues. I mentioned the band "Stavesacre" at the beinging of this thread, as a band that inspired me to consider this issue.What can I say, "So many pidgeons, where's a cat when you need one? ... Oh!! here's one."
In regards to music in general, based on what I have heard, (where most of our opinions come from) the devil cannot create anything. From the presumptions of some the posts e.g:"You can't win the world by being like the world, the world will only win you!"-Keith Danielit has been established that rock music is 'of the world.'So in regards to rock music, did the devil create that, or was it something that has been distorted? If this has been chewed already, forgive me I have had no time to look.As much as I respect the men mentioned in this thread, does personal preference over style and form constitute something being ungodly?Zeke
CJaKfOrEsT wrote:So this opens up another fork. Are modern day choruses by the likes of Hillsong, and Hosanna, etc edifying? Sure they may be edifying, but the thing that we started questioning in our church was the theology of the songs that came out of that. What I mean is singing about me, myself and I. How God can meet my needs, and how much I need him, and not glorifying the majesty of Christ. Zeke
[laughs] Sorry, had to laugh at the fact that Stavesacre is labled as hard on here. My goodness, you'd die if you heard the likes of, let's say, Living Sacrifice! Ummm... but that's not the point. Honestly, I like Stavesacre. I own their best hits album. They have very encouraging lyrics.I guess the only thing I really have to say on this topic is you really do have to test what has a "Christian" label on it. I've had experiences where I can't even trust a "Christian" bookstore to sell stuff that isn't against what the Bible has to say about things. I think you have to handle something like this on a case by case basis. You can't lable or judge all band that are "hard" as Stavesacre to be good or bad. You have to just screen each band for yourself, no matter how "hard", "soft" or whatever. Just be like the Bereans, and their example is in the Bible.
As far as the genre question goes, much of todays rock/pop R&B etc. has stemmed from gospel music likewise jazz, blues etc.It's more the specific influences that surround the musical styling of the bands in question that would concern me.I was very amused listening to a tape of my dads as we were driving together that I couldn't make out a single word they said, the very same complaint that is constantly made to me when talking about my own preferences but just as he was hugely blessed by a sound that I found both indecipherable and noise pollution. I am regularly in the same boat when listening to lines telling me that "faithful are the wounds He brings" and songs like Gomer's theme by Third Day I am so blessed and challenged but the sound, is both indecipherable and noise pollution to others
Here we go again, arguing over "terminology" rather than concepts, and realities. What if I'd named the thread "Can rock music glorify God?" or "Rock music being used as a tool for evangelism?"..would that have been more palatable?You mis-read my spirit. There is a difference between argumentative and provocative. To put the word 'Christian' on something is to legitimise it in the minds of many. The real question is are some forms of music more conducive to spiritual welfare than others? Music essentially touches the soul and communicates emotion rather than information. Classical music, or moody-and-sankey, or modern ballad or rock-and-roll are no different to each other in this respect. The different genres will touch different kinds of souls.In recent years a pattern has emerged where 'worship' is led by the 'worship band', but there is no essential link between worship and music; although there is a strong link between praise and music. Music should never be allowed to 'lead' the 'worship' but worship may be permitted 'lead' the music.Let me make my position plain. I have a wide taste in music. I enjoy classical music and I have spent hundreds of hours on a 'Christian' radio station, as a player of a wide variety in music; country and western, blue grass, calypso, reggae, gentle rock. I am not afraid of any music as long as it fulfils its primary purpose of acting as a vehicle for intelligable truth . I am always mindful of the words. In the life of the spirit music must be a vehicle for intelligent communication of revelation or adoration; it is to be judged by its success in communicating truth not emotion.BTW it was not the Wesleys who used drinking songs but William Booth and the Salvation Army. The Wesleys were much more 'cultured' in their background and their preference was for more 'classical' music. Not that one is more 'Christian' than the other. Emotional states are easily communicated by music, but the acid test is how well was 'truth' communicated? According to Paul in 1 Corinthians edificated is effected by understanding not by emotional states.
BTW it was not the Wesleys who used drinking songs but William Booth and the Salvation Army. The Wesleys were much more 'cultured' in their background and their preference was for more 'classical' music. Not that one is more 'Christian' than the other. Yes and the emphasis of doing that was for evangelistic reasons only (I would assume), they wouldnt sing all the hymns with wordly music behind it in their church because they "like" the beats or sound of the music.Ron, great points on the soul, music certaintly does cater to that part of our being. Looking at the scriptures I cannot find a place where music is not used in worship without as you said 'intelligable truth' being conveyed to the hearers. Songs, Hymns, Spiritual songs all have a clear textual message, that can be profitably memorized. Emotional states are easily communicated by music, but the acid test is how well was 'truth' communicated? According to Paul in 1 Corinthians edificated is effected by understanding not by emotional states.Thats another great point brother Ron! It goes like this in many circles now:Hearing of music produces emotion > (and then) the words in that emotional state gain perhaps some signifigance but the foundation is music.Where it should be:Hearing of the words and music produces meditative reflection > (and then) after grasping the signifigance of the words produces emotion in response.---I belive the difference between these two models can really shape how well truth is recieved and grounded in the spirit. This doesnt dismiss music but rather puts the emphasis spiritually where it should be. Words contain life and death not the sound of a string being plucked or drum being banged. Another intresting note is that the old hymn writers were known for their lyrical content which is a legacy until this day ie charles wesley. But the modern worship leaders are known for their music and beats rather than lyrics primarly.. take away the music sound from most of the new worship now and what you are left with really isnt that edifying.
This is a post from chadsepulveda he posted it in the wrong forum section and requested I move it:---Actually, Keith Green has an informative and helpful article on this subject. It is here...http://lastdaysministries.org/articles/cangoduserockmusic.htmlHope it is helpful...chadps. there are a ton of awesome articles on the Last Days webpage as well.
I had a great time worshipping at peoples church in toronto (the church Oswald J. Smith founded). They sing alot of contemprary songs but also sing some hymns inbetween usually only one. The other songs were good but what really stuck with me was the hymn that was sung.. I was thinking over the lyrics all the way home on the train.HOW FIRM A FOUNDATIONHow firm a foundation, ye saints of the Lord,Is laid for your faith in His excellent Word!What more can He say than to you He hath said,You, who unto Jesus for refuge have fled?In every condition, in sickness, in health;In poverty’s vale, or abounding in wealth;At home and abroad, on the land, on the sea,As thy days may demand, shall thy strength ever be.Fear not, I am with thee, O be not dismayed,For I am thy God and will still give thee aid;I’ll strengthen and help thee, and cause thee to standUpheld by My righteous, omnipotent hand.When through the deep waters I call thee to go,The rivers of woe shall not thee overflow;For I will be with thee, thy troubles to bless,And sanctify to thee thy deepest distress.When through fiery trials thy pathways shall lie,My grace, all sufficient, shall be thy supply;The flame shall not hurt thee; I only designThy dross to consume, and thy gold to refine.Even down to old age all My people shall proveMy sovereign, eternal, unchangeable love;And when hoary hairs shall their temples adorn,Like lambs they shall still in My bosom be borne.The soul that on Jesus has leaned for repose,I will not, I will not desert to its foes;That soul, though all hell should endeavor to shake,I’ll never, no never, no never forsake.---click here to hear the music for this hymn:http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/h/f/hfirmafo.htm
Another intresting note is that the old hymn writers were known for their lyrical content which is a legacy until this day ie charles wesley. But the modern worship leaders are known for their music and beats rather than lyrics primarly.. take away the music sound from most of the new worship now and what you are left with really isnt that edifying.I do enjoy quite a few modern 'worship' songs. Some of the modern hymns of Graham Kendrick or Stuart Townend have real substance to them. However, on the point of the beat... I have an old friend who is a very accomplished musician and who tends to prefer the older songs. He passed an interesting comment. He said, I like some of the new songs but we won't be able to sing them in prison. I said what do you mean. He explained (my apologies if I get it wrong) that so many new songs depend on the contra-beat and leave gaps for the band to an extent that they cannot be sung without orchestral accompaniment. If persecution comes, he said, and we find ourselves in prison without our bands, we won't be able to sing these hymns.It was an odd but sobering reflection.
Thought this scripture was quite interesting in the light of what was said about music and words:Every stroke the LORD lays on them with his punishing rod will be to the music of tambourines and harps, as he fights them in battle with the blows of his arm.Isa 30:32 Zeke
Ummm... explanation? I looked up this Scripture and... ummm... I don't understand why it was posted. It seems random. Am I missing something? In context, from what I read, chapter 30 of Isaiah is about the Lord's anger concerning those who relied on Egypt rather than in God. There's a bunch of... anologies used to describe like,(v. 13) "Therefore this iniquity shall be to you like a breach ready to fall, a bulge in a high wall, whose breaking comes suddenly, in an instant."(v. 14) "And He shall break it like the breaking of the potter's vessel, which is broken in pieces..."(v. 28) "His breath is like an overflowing stream, which reaches up to the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of futility; and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err."Now are these verses literally about breaches, bulges, vessels, streams, bridles, tambourines and harps? Ummm... from what I gather - no. They're illustrations. So, I mean, did you think this was just a cool verse? Help me, I don't understand?!
Christian Rock - Driven to Darkness by David WilkersonIt is preached August 3,1987! When I was reading this, 9 months ago, it was like reading my own thoughts! I was glad about that but in the same time my heart was and it is in grieve about these things that are happening today in the church!
Sermonindex,How Firm A Foundation has always been my favorite hymn, because of the lyrics!
Maybe it is an urban myth, but I've always heard that the tune to Amazing Grace was originally a roudy bar song.
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