Your Opinion: Whats wrong with the church?

On here, we complain about how other Christians aren't doing things right. "They're too this" or "They're not enough of that". Why are we so busy pointing out, dissecting, and broadcasting others' "wrong" way of doing things? It's like arguing siblings on here sometimes; "Daddy, did you see what he/she did?!""For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselvs by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise" (2 Corinthians 10:12).I see this in a few topics, sometimes, in which case I've pretty much decided to stay silent. Don't like to be a part of stirring up strife. Otherwise, I believe this site edifies, teaches, and encourages those from around the whole world that come across it. I pray for this ministry and know that God will continue to use it.

Hi Jesse,you can refer to my post under "God is Jealous For us" for my answer. Unsurrendered souls, people hanging onto their own wills and rights. Humanism in a nutshell.Blessings, Chanin

Why don't we see the glory of God the way the early church did? Why don't we see the same type revivals that wesley, whitfield, finney, and the rest of them saw? I've only one life to live and I feel that I'm missing out. We are all missing out! There is still more to be had, more of Christ to be known. Why aren't we where we need to be? Whats wrong with the church? Whats wrong with us? Whats wrong with me? All I know is that there has to be more. There has to be more to Christianity then what I've yet to see and experience! Oh God let there be more!!God does different works at different times. It's not up to us to say that one work is more glorifying to God than another, I don't think. Did Caleb & Joshua complain how they should've been in the Promise Land and not wandering around in the desert with the rest of the Isrealites? Did Joseph moan about not seeing God's glory in the treatment from his family when he had dreams about them bowing down to him, when he was sold into slavery, when he was injustly thrown into jail and then forgotten after interpreting a dream? There are several examples all over the Old Testament of faithful servants who had to live in dark, godless times. But they were there for a reason. There's times of building and tearing down, of drought and famine, and rain and harvest, of winning battles, and of losing battles, of being accepted, and of being rejected.Despite the times, God knows what He's doing. You're not in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that's just how I feel about that. I like to take each day at a time, not trying to understand or figure out what God's doing, but just being faithful and trusting that He's in control and that He sees the big picture.

What's wrong with the Church? ... Christ answered this in the Revelation, His love letter to us -which so many of us refuse to read/heed ... He says ...Rev. 2[1] Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;[4] I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.[5] Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.[7] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; The admonition given to the Ephesian church was to return to her first love, that of promoting the pure worship of Christ alone, the simple spreading of His Gospel, and the sharing of His Charity to one another, the poor, and not to the dreams of personal dynasty building leadership, or solely unto ourselves ... This simplicity of Christ easy yoke is the same predominant message for overcoming the Nicolaitan type doctrine (addressed further below) and heirarchy so prevalent in our generation ... The spirit of the Nicolaitans will always be accompanied by the spirit of apathy and lethargy regarding anything outside it's own little insular world ... Such selfish, self centered, and incestuous preoccupation within ourselves, and our group, will eventually cool our affections toward our Lord, and our passion to carry out His purposes, because we're to busy carying out our own ... Many of us have allowed ourselves to concentrate our total focus on our doctrinal hobby horses, our denominations and it's human leadership, and have clearly loss sight of the righteous attributes of Spirit appointed leadership ... God help the man or woman sent of Him to roll away the stones of whited selpulchers! ... In fact some of us have become so brainwashed under Nicolaitan doctrine we've become denominational zombies, of little or no use to the true leader of Christ Church, the Holy Spirit ... In fact i'd venture to say that there are many saints today who haven't the slightest idea who the God the Holy Ghost really is, and/or what He does, and wants to do, and that primarily is whats wrong with THE CHURCH OF CHRIST![12] And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;[14] I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication ...Balaam was a priest of Israel, but if one takes the time to read the account in Numbers 22 he or she will find that Balaam preached to Balac, i.e. the Moabites, for MONEY. Many churches today concentrate more on fund raisers, pledges of money, pass the plate, building funds, etc., etc., than on teaching God's Word. What they do falsely teach and emphasize is that you will be "blessed by God" if you give or send them money... as in the more you give them the more He will bless you! Ah, Balaam lives on! You know at one point Balaam had his ass so loaded with "donations" that God intervened with an angel and had the ass speak to Balaam to bring him to his senses. Jesus has a problem with money grubbing preachers and mammon for hire prophets casting stumbling blocks before His Church ...[15] So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.The term “Nicolaitans” is derived from two greek words ...“Nikos" and “Laos” ... Nikos is defined as: a conquest; victory; triumph; to conquer; and by implication, dominancy over the defeated ... The word "nicao" literally means; todominate-intimidate-manipulate. Additionally, the term "laos" means "the people” or the “laity” ... Thus exacting the phrase “to conquer(dominate-intimidate-manipulate) the people (laity).The Nicolaitan movement marked the beginning of an unrighteous priesthood in the church, blatant within the Roman Church, and much more masked in Protestantism, but regardless is still there ... The first item on the Nicolaitan agenda is to divide in order to conquer ... The primary objective of the Nicolaitan spirit is the separation of the Body from the Lord’s provision for leadership, and the insight given through that spiritual authority, namely the Holy Ghost Himself, the true and only LEADER of each individual Christian, and corporate Body of Christ ... The Nicolaiatan usurption of power separates people into the priest class and laity advocating the "us and them" philosophy ... But there is no place in the Word (after the inception of the Church age) where priests or ministers have to mediate between God and the people, nor is there a place where they are separated in their worship of the Lord ... God desires all to love and serve Him together ... Nicolaitanism destroys those precepts and instead separates the ministers from the people by making them leaders and overlords, instead of servants ... Our Lord expressed His hatred for this type of administration and expects His people to do likewise ... In other words, there is to be no intimidating, controlling, power-hungry officers in the Church Body exercising counterfeit authority over the “layman” ... Scriptures plainly supports a Priesthood of Believers, EACH of us being granted access to the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ ... “ You are a CHOSEN RACE, a royal PRIESTHOOD, a HOLY NATION, a PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;” (1 Pet 2:9)The Early Church, beginning with the Ephesian Chuch Age, confronted this form of opposition following the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, and we today are to do the same ... But do we? ... The doctrine of the Nocolaiatan replaces the headship of the Holy Ghost with that of mankind, and it is also historically known that such ones were also prone to love of mammon, and prone to sexual indiscretion ... 2Tim.3[1] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.[2] For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,[3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,[4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;[5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.[6] For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,Sound familar ... to familiar?[16] Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.[17] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; [18] And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who [20] I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.[21] And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.[22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.[29] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.From my readings in the OT regarding Jezebel she was a bewitching, conniving, sexually alluring, murdering, usurper of authority over masculinity, beginning with her husband Ahab ... Jezebel always reminds me of the scripture that says ... But the following excerpt from a link also provided further clarifys ...The Characteristics of the Jezebel Spirithttp://www.jonhamilton.org/jezebel.htmQuote:A Jezebel spirit seeks control through manipulation. It has a deep hatred of true spiritual authority, and uses emotional pressure, witchcraft and obsessive sensuality in its pursuit of power. It uses subtle persuasion to gain influence and get close to those in control. It then uses this position to gradually dominate.In the Hebrew, the name Jezebel means literally "without cohabitation". She will not live or "cohabit" with those she cannot dominate and control. She will have no equals. Control is what Jezebel wants more than anything. Even when Jezebel appears to be submissive, it is usually out of a carefully wrought plan to gain influence.Although it may be common to refer to Jezebel as "she", we obviously must conclude that as a spirit, Jezebel is gender neutral. Jezebel certainly has as many male slaves as female. However, since Jezebel initially tends to establish control without the actual use of physical force, she is more easily associated with classic feminine persuasion techniques.Jezebel likes to appear close to leaders, and use their influence. She likes to use the power and influence of others to accomplish her goals and control her environment. In 1 Kings 21:8 we read " Jezebel wrote letters in Ahab’s name and sealed them with his seal, and sent them to the elders and nobles of the city." This is typical of Jezebel. She prefers to remain concealed in the background, while she manipulates situations and leaders.Jezebel is often associated with pleasure, especially sexual pleasure. She will use any form of sensuality at her disposal to gain influence and control. Jezebel uses sensuality, but make no mistake, Jezebel is seeking CONTROL. Lusts are merely tools used to weaken others in order for her to accomplish her goal of control. In many cases sex is not involved at all.Jezebel’s greatest enemy is true spiritual authority. As Jezebel opposed Elijah and Herodias opposed John the Baptist, so Jezebel today opposes righteous authority. In her heart, she despises all moral authority. .And as for Christ next answer to whats wrong with we Christians, and His church, it's been quoted and preached on so much, it's of it's own explanation ...Rev.3[14] And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;[15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.[16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.[17] Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:[18] I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.[19] As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.[22] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.What's apparently wrong with Christ Church so far is we don't have "ears to hear" the Holy Spirit, so therefore "repentance' is the furthest thing from our mind ... We're full of the world, and sin, some of us oblivious to it, and some of use to well aware of it without a solution of how to get it out ... But don't despair oh faithful remnant, for God has His own way in store of bringing hearing to our ears, and bowing to our knees ... We just haven't met that date in time yet! ... He has everything under His full control, but in the meanwhile be not weary in your own well doing ... Keep on keeping on! ... In Jesus name ... Amen

You know saints the Holy Ghost keeps directing my attention to programs on Christian TV that lets me know not only is He aware of what's wrong with His Bride, but that He's also in the process of fixing it ...THE THIEVES ARE SOON TO BE DRIVEN FROM HIS TEMPLE/CHURCH ...i saw a program on WGPH/60 last night where a man of God broke it down as to what has transpired to demise in the Body of Christ ... He in essence said that denominations/churches/pastors have become businesses, with business plans, that caters to the whims of the congregation, so much in fact as to poll what folk want, and don't want to hear ... Or that the congregations have become pawns to the business of catering to their denominations/ churches/pastors in the building of their empirical whims ...i of course instantly took this as a confirmation regarding what Chist has against us written in the book of Revelation ... We, His Bride, have the blood of the doctines of Baalam, Nicolas and Jezebel in our skirts, and it screams to high heaven, "UNCLEAN! ... UNCLEAN! By the mere fact that scripture states "judgment begins in the house of the Lord", assures me that He's gonna clean us up before we can don our wedding dress ...He already knows what's wrong, and He already knows how to fix it ...Rev.2[5] Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.[16] Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.[22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.[23] And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.Rev.3[1] And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.[15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.[16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.[19] As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.[22] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.Let us continue to pray, walking circumspectly, that we may be of use to Him as part of His solution, and not part of His problem ... AmenSoon, and very soon, we are going to see our King ... Soon, and very soon, we are going to see our King ...Soon, and very soon, we are going to see our King ...Hallelujah! ... Hallelujah! ...We're going to see our King!

I just want to share something that I read this morning in a Christian Magazine. As many of you will know by now, I'm from Holland (The Netherlands). 3 years ago God showed me the curse of being a worldly Christian. I had no satisfaction, I felt pretty lonely and God was a burden to me...Finally I saw that it was me and not God who was wrong. I lived in sin and had never met Jesus personally. God wasn't dead, I was dead and therefore I didn't see that God was alive.Through compromise we lose sight of God. Stepping on the gas and breaks at the same time doesn't work!!! There's no such thing as a worldly Christian. Either your worldly or you're a Christian.But anyway...I read something about a Youthchurch in my country and their vision to reach the youth. This just shows how they have lost sight of the true God and how they through compromise try to reach the lost. I've tried to translate it, I hope it will read easily."We want nothing less then to be attractive and we also call it that way. We want to be an attractive and powerful Church. We want to link up with them (youth) and desire to get acquainted with their kind of language and experiences. The message remains unchanged.In order to link up with the non-Christian youth as good as possible, we have appointed a team of non-Christians. They share what they do and don't understand. They for example told us that we were too radical with our "choose now" approach. They ask for more patience. That's why we are going to change our services.The first things that are going to change, will be more recognizable to the secular youth in the future. We start with playing some justified secular music, then we continue with some dramatic art concerning the theme, after that we have a consideration (note: that's some sort of sermon...very often not more than 12 minutes) and we close with a time of worship.If you immediately start with mentioning the blood of Christ, they just won't understand it. It's even sometimes experienced as being sectaric. We start in the world and end up with God. In everything may be seen that we act different." Some of the things mentioned may sound not that bad. I agree that it's not always the best approach to start pointing out to the blood of Christ, BUT...the problem here is the heart! They're ashamed of the message of Jesus. They don't want the Gospel to be offensive or convincing. It must suit everybody. That's why they appointed a team of non-Christians to say what's good or wrong. Think about this...They ask a group of people on their way to hell(!) whether they like the service or not!! "Have you enjoyed our service? "Yes". Ok, great..." That just blows my mind...They want to reach the emotions of the youth, they want to get them to Church, but they don't want to reach their hearts!!!!!!! The offence of the cross has ceased (Galatians 5:11). Christianity becomes a sub-culture and a hobby...not a necessity to flee the wrath of God and be cleansed by the blood of Christ. It no longer points out to the necessity to be holy as He is holy because He is worthy! It's all about ME ME and ME...I believe that with this modern-day-preaching we are responsible for the eternal suffering of millions of souls. We justified every damned sinner and preached them into Heaven and never spoke about the reality of hell. We told about Gods grace and forgot all about repentance! We may want every person to reach Heaven, but if we continue to preach these kind of messages, hearing about Heaven is as close as people will get.God, give us words to speak to reach this world with Your message. Put Your words in our hearts as we read the Bible! Give us Your Spirit of knowledge and revelation! Give us hearts that only rejoice in obeying Your word. Make us totally dependent on You alone. Share Your thoughts with us and may we share in Your grieve, Your sorrow, Your joy. Grant us the compassion of Jesus. Help us to forsake everyhting for the sake of Christ! We're weak, but Lord give us the power of the Holy Ghost to speak boldly, to pray without ceasing, to study the Bible intensive...Help us to hear and obey Your voice. Draw this world back to You! Awake the sleeping Christians and search and purify our own hearts. Help us to walk in the Spirit and not after the flesh. For You alone deserve the glory! Oh Father, that You alone will receive ALL glory! In Jesus' name. Amen.

This theme reminds me of a story...a visiting preaching was approached at the end of the meeting by a furtive looking woman."I need to share something with you" she said."Certainly" said the visitor"The trouble with our pastor is..." she began."Stop" said the visitor, "I know what the trouble with your pastor is""Really?" said the woman."Yes" said the visitor "the trouble with your pastor is that he isn't prayed for enough!"for 'pastor' you might substitute 'church'?

Hey Jesse, I know I'm a little late in responding to this thread, but I would like to say a few words on this subject. I do not have scripture to back up my opinion, but I do believe I have heard from God. Ya'll excuse me while I speak from my heart what I believe is a word from the Lord: I believe what's wrong with the church (in America), I say in America, because I do not believe it is wrong in the church all over the world, is a spirit of religion. I believe a spirit of religion(I'm talking about a demonic principality of the highest rank) has had a stronghold over the church in America for 400 years. I believe God showed me that this spirit was given permission to dominate the people by Him. When the first Pilgrims came to this country in 1620, they came in search of religious freedom (supposedly). They were fleeing persecution and government enforced religion. But what is the first thing they do when they arrive but begin to force their religion onto everyone they came into contact with. They even killed some indians because they would not convert to Christianity! The people cried for religion, so God gave them what they asked for. Religion is the opposite of Christ. It is anti-Christ. I believe that this spirit has been allowed by God to oppress the church in America for 400 years, but its reign is over. This religious spirit has quenched revival on numerous occasions. God has issued the decree to "Let my people go." God's spirit has begun to blow across the north American continent to bring about three things: 1. Those who are lukewarm will become either hot or cold. 2. Those who are evil will become more evil. 3. Those who are on fire will experience the Latter Rain as promised in Joel. This "revival" will cause the remnant church to rise up. The false church will persecute her ruthlessly, but this will only cause her to grow and those who are truly seeking will be able to recognize the true church because of her fruit.

We are called, no, commanded to love, and THE GOOD NEWS is we are EQUIPPED!!! But it takes using it and practicing it. The Love of God IS shed abroad in our hearts. FACT. Everything is in place. (Romans 5:5) Like a little baby that has all the right muscles to move and eventually walk, we have all the right equipment to begin to walk in love. And with exercising it, and practicing it, we get stronger and stronger in our walk of love UNTIL we are able like our Precious Jesus to love those who hate us unto death. That is maturity. We practice each day. Starting on someone easy! Not the most difficult person around. The practice strengthens our "heart loving muscles" and gets us to a place when it is our habit, our lifestyle!Respond with the LOVE GOD HAS ALREADY PUT INSIDE. Not with our own love - that will fail. He shows how when we determine to obey him in this area. IT IS BY FAITH. It doesn't matter what our mind says about the person. It is a decision of the will to love God's way. We are to pour mercy on those who do us wrong, not judgment, because we cry out for mercy as we deal with everyone in our imperfection. Who wants God's judgment! We want His mercy! So if we want mercy, we must give it. Can't have it both ways: Requiring justice in a situation and asking God for mercy for when we miss it.We love one another and that love begins to grow and perfect and then manifestations of Jesus begin to function and that’s what the world is looking for.(1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. )They hope that what we believe is true and real. The world will put pressure on us to see if it is real.BUT WE WILL DO IT BECAUSE WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP!!!!! God bless you all my brothers and sisters. We have chosen to take the High Road and He will complete what He has begun. Hallelujah!Michelle

There is some great and truthful discussions here. I want to share one problem that is going on, and will only be corrected by individuals who seek after God and truly desire and seek to know God: it is BIBLE READING!!! I discovered a couple years ago to my dismay, and something my mom just recently discovered is that most churchgoers barely ever read the bible except the tiny bit on the radio and church (and there are too many who are twisting Scripture for selfish reasons). My mom was involved with my brother and sister's youth group. She was allowed to talk to everyone, the leaders encourage that, and she asked "who reads their bibles? Who reads them every day?" Only my brother and sister raised their hands. She told them if they follow Jesus and are Christians, they have to learn His ways and we do that with time in the bible every day, not just at church. The next week she asked the same questions. Again, only my brother and sister raised their hands. The next week, same thing, by this time, even the leaders were smirking and giving my mom dirty looks. My mom asked them "Don't you believe reading the bible is important? What do you think?" The leaders said, "no, it's not important. church activities is good." This is not uncommon!!! A lot of people don't care at all about reading the Bible. That just shows they don't have the desire to know Him. We must keep ourselves trained and growing in the knowledge of our Lord! When I was a brand new Christian, I had read tracts that said we had to read the bible daily, so I thought it was common knowledge. I went around asking "Christians" "what are you reading in the bible?" I had made up my mind only to make friends with people who sought God's wisdom and who esteem His word and read it often. Well, by that criteria, I lost friends. They all told me lame reasons why they don't care about reading the bible, and some told me they NEVER intend to read it. Church is good enough. Readign just a little bit here and there is not enough. The real bad ones are the ones who think they know the bible and are "know-it-alls" but don't obey it. We don't know it all, we have to keep in the bible because we forget, Satan will even try to steal it away from us without us knowing. We have to keep in the Word!!! Keep perservering and learning of Jesus, growing in the knowledge of our Lord!!! Read the Bible more and more!!! Ask God to give you a love of His word and then continue in it!! Force yourself if needbe!! Get tapes, movies, even cartoons of the bible if you have to, just learn and keep growing in God. So many are falling away and don't even know it because they go to church and the goats are running the whole show now. The sheep are mocked and the goats are flattering each other. Reading the bible is not the entire Christian life, but since we are so blessed to have an abundance of bibles around, we should esteem His word and keep His words in our hearts and minds at all times. And continue to look into the Bible every day to learn more and more of His ways. There is always something else to know of Him. It is so sad that with 10 bibles in our homes, people are so lazy that they never read them. How wicked that is. This is one big problem, the disobedience is another problem, but READING THE BIBLE, studying it right, with His Spirit and a spirit of obedience must be done!!! How do we learn Jesus and know what He teaches unless we take the time to learn!!! Read the bible and obey it, and your whole life keeps changing and loving God more!!! We don't read it to puff ourselves up, to be know-it-alls, but to get to know God better. I continually learn new things from God through the Bible. Then we must obey.

We are what is wrong with the church. It has become a social gathering, focussed on ourselves and what we can get out of it. It is about what we need.What about what God needs, what about what is in it for Him? We are here for His pleasure. We are here to worship and minister to Him. We are His stewards. What do we do for Him out of love for Him?Just a thought!!!

I love what was just said about Bible reading, however, I'd just like to say that I was someone who did alot of Bible reading and very little obeying the Word. Now, I do alot less reading and alot more meditating, meaning, I focus on the particular scriptures that God is ministering to me from and I meditate on them day and night till my heart and my mind are conformed to follow them. I once knew a man who reads the Bible thru 6 times a year and he was soooo carnal. He could teach and preach with great eloquence but his life was full of rotten fruit. He advised me to leave my husband at the time. My own mother can quote scripture with the best, but her life is full of rotten fruit. I'd rather know and be a doer of 5 scriptures than memorize the whole Bible and be full of lawlessness. I'm not saying we shouldn't read our Bibles often, I'm just saying it's easy to substitute reading for meditating, and not really be changed.

THIS ISN'T A QUESTION THAT REQUIRES SOME "GREAT THEOLOGICAL ANSWER"!!! THE GREATEST REASON IS SIN IN THE HEARTS OF "SO-CALLED" MINISTERS OF THE GOSPEL: MEN AND WOMEN OF GOD WHO HAVE NEVER TRULY FOUND VICTORY OVER SIN, YET TRY TO LEAD OTHERS INTO VICTORY WITH THEIR FOOLISH DOCTRINES OF DELIVERANCE BY OTHER MEANS...WHEN IN FACT THEY HAVE LEFT THE PREACHING OF THE CROSS (CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED) WHICH IS THE WAY OF DELIVERING A SIN-SICK SOUL FROM THE POWER AND DOMINION OF SIN! THAT OLD SIN NATURE NEEDS TO BE PUT TO DEATH. OUR LIVES AND EVERYTHING WE DO SHOULD BE CENTERED AROUND CALVARY(THE CROSS)AND THEN WE WILL SEE A TRUE REVIVAL AND OUTPOURING OF GOD'S SPIRIT IN THESE LAST DAYS! REVELATION 2:2-5 REFERS TO THE CHURCH OF CHRIST LEAVING THEIR "FIRST LOVE"...TALKING ABOUT A DEPARTURE FROM THE CROSS OF CHRIST. HE TELLS US IN VERSE 5 TO "REMEMBER THEREFORE FROM WHERE YOU HAVE FALLEN AND REPENT AND DO THE FIRST WORKS" WHICH MEANS THEY FELL FROM GRACE AND HAD STOPPED DEPENDING ON CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED AND CHRIST WAS CALLING THEM BACK TO THE CROSS. HE THEN SAID "OR ELSE I WILL COME QUICKLY, AND WILL REMOVE YOUR CANDLESTICK OUT OF HIS PLACE, EXCEPT YOU REPENT." WHERE IS THAT REVIVAL POWER THAT SO MANY ARE YEARNING FOR? IT'S CHRIST (THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT) WHO IS OUR LIGHT, AND THE CROSS IS THE MEANS. IT'S ALL ABOUT CHRIST AND WHAT HE HAS ALREADY DONE...NOT ABOUT ANYONE ELSE. CHRIST IS OUR VICTOR, AND THE CROSS IS THE MEANS BY WHICH DELIVERANCE IS AVAILABLE. GOD BLESS!AN OLD-TIME PENTECOSTAL,THE EVANGELIST

Yes, Spitfire, we cannot read the bible and then go off and disobey it. I mention that in my post. God will not at all reveal Himself to people who do that, and that person is kidding themselves, even if they read the bible and can pass bible college exams on facts and figures. That won't help. Our obedience to the Bible is very important, with His Spirit to guide us into all truths and help us handle His word correctly. I have met way too many churchgoers who don't ever bother reading the 10 bibles they got at home. There are some who study it at their convenience and by their lives, it is obvious they aren't giving God their whole mind, soul, and strength, because there are obvious selfish things going on, very common is the pursuit of selfish ambition and money. I only wanted to bring up this one point, that one small step but vital step is spending time in God's word with a surrendered heart to obey Him. Because there have been more than enough churchgoers who have ended up killing loved ones, saying "God told me to kill my children and poke out my eyes, etc" and end up in mental asylums, that is enough evidence for me to see we cannot solely rely on other things, our flesh and minds, etc, without also knowing God's will as He has already revealed to us in His word through Jesus Christ. Superficial Bible reading can bring results like this, and superficial bible reading can be twisted into all kinds of perverse things, I am not talking about superficial Bible reading. Bible reading with a heart of obedience should not be a legalistic work, and that's not what I mean. But we need to know the REAL GOD, not a made-up idol god of our imagination. There is only one God who made the sun, who made all things, the Lord who offers salvation through Jesus. With the abundance of bibles around, we should esteem His word and keep reminding ourselves what He says for ourselves, not how someone else interprets it necessarily. For people who memorize Scripture and live in disobedience to what they know, the bible says that person is going to punished much worse than someone in ignorance. For those who don't handle God's gifts properly, woe to them.

Being that SI is built around great preachers of the past, men who knew God, I will offer this passage:Jdg 2:7-13 ASV(7) And the people served Jehovah all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great work of Jehovah that he had wrought for Israel.(8) And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Jehovah, died, being a hundred and ten years old.(9) And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnath-heres, in the hill-country of Ephraim, on the north of the mountain of Gaash.(10) And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, that knew not Jehovah, nor yet the work which he had wrought for Israel.(11) And the children of Israel did that which was evil in the sight of Jehovah, and served the Baalim;(12) and they forsook Jehovah, the God of their fathers, who brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the peoples that were round about them, and bowed themselves down unto them: and they provoked Jehovah to anger.(13) And they forsook Jehovah, and served Baal and the Ashtaroth.At least that's what I've seen in my own life, personally and corporatly. :-( In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

Another reason to know the actual Word of God, to study diligently and not just rely on things outside of the Holy Bible is because Jesus did it and was trained this way also. 1 John 2:6 tells us to copy Jesus. Jesus and Jewish youths were thoroughly educated in Scriptures as children, research that for yourself in Jewish ways of Jesus' day (http://www.jerusalemperspective.com/articles/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=1453 is one link, there are many many others). This knowing the Scriptures along with obedience and loving God and having the Holy Spirit is all included.Jesus was in the Word of God, and we should copy, because the Bible tells us to copy Him. Another friendly encouragement to keep in the word. There are many resources to help you study the life of Jesus, I encourage everyone to research Jesus' life to know Him better and copy Him more. I know training my son the same way Jesus was trained, by teaching Him the word and by my own love and obedience to God is a privilege and delight to my own soul. "Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus did." 1 John 2:6Jesus studied and knew God's written commandments, not just divine revelation, we have to do the same if we are to be like Him.

All of the churches in Revelations were encouraged to be overcomers.Jesus told the church of Ephesus "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." To the church of Smyrna he said "He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."Jesus told the church at Pergamos "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." He told the believers at Thyatira "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:" Unto Sardis he said "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Jesus told the church at Philadelphia "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."Even to Laodecia (what is believed by many to be the current age of the church) Jesus said "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."What's the secret to overcoming? Revelations 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.As to which of the three things that are problematic in the church today, I'll let you think about that.