Hello Logic,
Prov 1:23 Turn back at my reproof, lo, I pour forth to you my spirit, I make known my words with you.
Here, God did all he could do; He poured out His spirit unto them, & made known His words unto them, and He called them.
But, they still refused, so then God is not One to be "walked on", therefore you read Verses 24-31.
Prov 1:24 Because I have called, and you refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
:25 But you have ignored all my counsel, and would have none of my reproof:
:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes;
:27 When your terror comes as desolation, and your destruction comes as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish comes upon you.
:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
:29 Because they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
:30 They would have none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
Luk 13:3, Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish.
It is conditional on the man to repent or not.
Aye, that is true, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish. It is just as true as Jesus' teaching on the new birth:
[b]"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."[/b]
Is the new birth not something that God does inside of us? Well, then why can not repentance also be something that God does inside of us?
Acts 11:18,
When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "[b]Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.[/b]" (ESV)
2Tim.2:24-26,24 "And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. [b]God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,[/b]26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
Man cannot simply pull himself up by his bootstraps and "repent!" As these scriptures show, even repentance is granted to us as a gift from God. :-)
Are all people called to repent? YES. Should we preach and command all people to repent? YES. Will people repent upon hearing it preached? Yes, but only those who are chosen by God among the elect. Should we only preach to the elect? That would be impossible. Since we do not know who is an elect, we should preach the gospel freely to everyone.
yoadam wrote:
Friedrick,
The question should be: Why does an Armenian pray for a soul when the "decision to be saved" is up to man?
If salvation hinges on man's free (supposedly) will, then man will ALWAYS choose NO.
How do you know that man will ALWAYS choose NO?
As I said it is because man is totally depraved since the fall.
Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every intent of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Romans 3:9-18 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
(10) As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; (11) There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. (12) They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." (13) "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips"; (14) "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." (15) "Their feet are swift to shed blood; (16) Destruction and misery are in their ways; (17) And the way of peace they have not known." (18) "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:14-19 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (15) But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. (16) And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. (17) For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
(18) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. (19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
Don't you see it? We are worthy of nothing but hell even if we were to live perfect from our birth, (which is of course impossible), and this is all because we have inherited Adam's sin nature-- when he fell, we all fell. The fact that God chooses to save any of us is completely mind blowing, and all I can say is I will never know why, but I love Him so much more simply because I know how unworthy I am... Well, I guess I do know why it is he chose me, it is "to the praise of his glorious grace" Eph. 1:6. Doesn't that just make you say "wow?" Let's praise Him for this unmerited favor he has shown to us!
The Westminster Confession puts well:
9:3 Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation (Joh_15:5; Rom_5:6; Rom_8:7): so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good (Rom_3:10, Rom_3:12), and dead in sin (Eph_2:1, Eph_2:5; Col_2:13), is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto (Joh_6:44, Joh_6:65; 1Co_2:14; Eph_2:2-5; Tit_3:3-5).
If you still hold that men are able to choose to repent (which would be classified as a "good work")-- then not only are you denying Acts 11:18 and 2 Timothy 2:24-26, but you are outright denying the teaching of total depravity which Paul clearly spends the first three chapters of his epistle to the Romans to set forth! To deny this is to believe in a partial depravity and exalt man higher than he should be, and downplay man's need for a savior. This robs God of His glory! This should cause anyone who believes man can choose to repent to have second thoughts.
Inability or incapability exempts from responcibility.
No way. We are guilty before God whether or not we even have an option from God to repent! And to those He has chosen to grant repentance (when they seek for it) it will be granted to them by sheer grace alone! In Adam all of humanity has sinned against the eternal God and therefore eternal punishment is humanity's reward! It is by his grace alone that sinful humanity still walks the earth.
Inevitability exempts from responcibility.
Do you want justice? If you want justice, then we wouldn't even exist, but perhaps to be tormented along with Adam & Eve in hell. Adam and the whole human race should have been wiped off the face of the planet. We should thank God for his amazing grace in the salvation of the elect-- it is no accident we are referred to as the "
[b]beloved[/b]!" It is even a grace that the wicked who are not chosen by God for eternal salvation should live on the this earth and enjoy a nice, sunny day.
No, Adam is responsible. (Funny, my name is Adam...) IN ADAM ALL DIE.
Saying God is responsible is not much different than the way Adam blamed Eve for sin and Eve blamed the devil for sin. And the nerve some people have, to actually blame God?
We are completely responsible in Adam, our first parent. The issue is not that we have sinned, but that we have never done anything but sin, and that in us dwells the sin nature which is inherited from ADAM. Any sin or sins we have in us and have committed only further prove the existence of our inherited sin nature from Adam and that God is right in his judgment of mankind.
Now did Adam & Eve have a free will that was not in bondage to sin before the fall? YES. And what did they do? They willingly rebelled against God, and that just so happens to be the case of humanity ever since-- That is why we are all ultimately responsible.
God can do what He wants. That's ok, no? God is not obligated to save anyone-- otherwise it would not be called "grace." When Adam fell-- humanity fell. But don't forget about His glorious grace, for God will also be having millions to live in the new Heavens and the New Earth with Him wherein righteousness dwells for eternity because of what Jesus has done for them!
Consider Paul's words in Romans 9:9-23 (ESV). I believe they will tear your arguments in to pieces quite literally. Paul foresaw your reaction to these truths over 1900 years ago.
[b]
As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14\tWhat shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19\tYou will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory---[/b]
To this verse I give a hearty amen. I am an unprofitable, wretched servant, unworthy of the grace God has shown me. Whatever God commands us, He gives the grace for us to do it! When we obey his command to repent, we do it in His strength!
Listen to the puritan John Owen, "To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." Listen to Paul talking about this experience in his letter to the Galations, "20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." (esv)
When an armenian prays "God save my friend ____." The armenian is actually exercising a calvinistic belief-- for the armenian in this instance is asking God to violate his friend ____'s free will to save him!
Nope, not violating his friend's free will, but persuading and urging him to choose to repent.
[b]Again, we cannot "choose to repent." Repentance is granted to us from God.[/b]
A calvinistic belief is that God would save the person even if no one prayes.
Calvinist don't need to pray for a singal thing.
Ummm, well this certainly isn't my experience. Since I received assurance from God of my salvation and that I was chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, all I can say is that I have never been more desperate in prayer. Now, does God need my prayer? No. He doesn't need me period! Does He know what we pray before we even begin? Yes. Well, then why on earth do we pray may be a better question?!
Calvinist to a sinner: Jesus may have died for you.
I think there are calvinists on both side of this debate. Myself personally I do lean toward a "limited atonement"-- that is that the atonement was sufficient in itself to be applied to the whole world, but is limited in that it is only applied and specially for the elect. (Which is the majority view within calvinism...) But I do still have questions about both sides.
Psa 85:2 Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sin. Selah.
Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
John 10:14-16 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. (15) "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. (16) "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
Finally, Check out John 17:6-10,
6\t"I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you.8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.
Does it not sound like Jesus intends only to save the chosen ones whom the Father gives Him?
Sinner: What must I do to be saved?
Calvinist Nothing, you can't do a thing.
This is a horrible misrepresentation of Calvinism. This is hyper-calvinism-- this is more calvinistic than John Calvin himself was. What must I do to be saved? Repent toward God and put your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ-- (and whether we realize it or not, when we are "doing" this, it is actually not us, but GOD who is at work within us.)
Now here are the practical implications of this truth, that God grants repentance, and I have not yet found it better preached on than when spurgeon said the following:
My faith doth lay its hand
On that dear head of thine,
While like a penitent I stand,
And there confess my sin.
-from the sermon entitled, "turn or burn"
