Romans & the Law

My wife & I have some questions regarding some things Paul said in Romans concerning the law. (I added the underlines.)

Romans 3:25-26 "25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, [u]because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,[/u] 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

Romans 4:15 "because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression."

Romans 5:12-14 "12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 ([u]For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.[/u] 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come."

Romans 2:12-16 "12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

It seems that Paul maybe saying that before the law there was no transagression or sin in the first three texts above. However, the text in Romans 2 seems to indicate otherwise.

Your help in understanding what Paul is saying would be helpful. Thanks.

I'm not going to go into it in depth here, but I'll just share some thoughts for your own consideration and study.

It is spoken as a clear principle in Romans 4:15 and 5:13 that where there is no law there is no sin. And not just these, but elsewhere in the Bible we pick up on this principle. If sin is breaking the law, then sin is non-existent when law is non-existent. That is what Paul teaches in Romans concerning a Christian: a Christian cannot sin anymore because a Christian is no longer under the law (in relationship to it). Since we died to the law we are also dead to sin. Sin cannot be imputed to us any longer. We are justified. Amazing radical stuff that I think even many believers haven't appreciated.

So in Romans 5:14, when Paul says that before the law was given people still died, he is making a point. If there was no law for the people from Adam to Moses, and the principle that "sin is not imputed where there is no law" is a true fact, then why did they die? For death is always condemnation for sin. So what sin were they dying for? Why were they condemned? Going on with this thought... why then do babies die? For they have no law to break (same idea).

Verses 5:13 and 14 are actually proving Paul's point in Romans 5:12. One man sinned, and so death (condemnation) passed upon all men BECAUSE ALL SINNED (in Adam). Adam's sin was imputed to us all. So that is why babies die, and that is why those died between Adam and Moses, because of Adam's sin that is reckoned to them all. The punishment is the cessation of physical life, not eternal hell. As a matter of fact, if I may be so bold as to say for your consideration, none of us physically die because of our own sins that we commit during our lifetime, but only on account of Adam's sin. The sentence to die physically doesn't come when we sin our first sin at 8 years of age, but it was passed 6000 years ago when Adam sinned and all his seed with him. My personal sins that I commit during my lifetime will be judged after I die and will land in me in hell, unless of course I am dead with Christ and under His precious blood.

I hope this fuels some thought for you. I know it has for me. Great question.
God bless,
-Eli

Eli,

Thanks for your post. I found it very helpful.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Yes, great post. Something else to consider is the physiological ramifications of death and dying that even Jesus experienced, though he was without sin. He took on the form of man when the seed of the Holy Ghost conceived in the womb of His mother...and immediatly, the divine fetus began aging, dying. This is because He took on the form of man, a son of Adam. Mankind has the curse of death upon him; even when God Himself comes down to embody the form and design.

Eli,

Thank you for your response.

Addition question:

In Genesis 18:16-21, it says (underline added), "16 Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way. 17 And the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, 18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice, that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.” 20 And the LORD said, [u]“Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave,[/u] 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know."

Sodom and Gomorrah weren't under the law, but their actions were considered sinful. Is this where Romans 2:12-16 comes into play? Even though they weren't under the law, they were those..."who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them"?

Thanks again.

There is another interpretation.
That is to say that from Adam to Moses, the law was there, just not revealed to the degree that it was through Moses. It was in the hearts of men from Adam to Moses just like it's in the hearts of men in Romans 1 and 2.
That is why Cain's countenance was downcast in Gen 4, was because his conscience was condemning him already for his sin. He knew in his heart what God wanted. He also knew it was wrong to kill his brother. The law was there, and that is why Cain knew he was guilty.
So that is why death reigned from Adam to Moses. In Romans 5:12-14, Paul is proving the law was there, and that is why men died, for 'all sinned'. It doesn't say 'in Adam all sinned', it says all sinned, thereby proving the law's place from Adam to Moses.

John Bunyan (the writer of Pilgrim's Progress) wrote perhaps the best book on this topic, called 'The doctrines of Law and Grace Unfolded'. In it, he proves scripturally that the law of God was revealed in the hearts of man from Adam to Moses, and shows cases for all ten commandments that men knew they were breaking them and also that God punished them for the breaking of the ten commandments far before Moses gave the written law. Thus proving the law was there.

To say that no law existed from Adam to Moses and that there was no sin in the world from Adam to Moses is to disregard every passage up till Moses that dealt with the transgressions of man. It's impossible.

(EDIT: This post was wrote before the previous next question.)

LoveGodsWay2 wrote:
My wife & I have some questions regarding some things Paul said in Romans concerning the law. (I added the underlines.)

It seems that Paul maybe saying that before the law there was no transagression or sin in the first three texts above. However, the text in Romans 2 seems to indicate otherwise.

[b]25[/b] [color=990000]Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;[/color]
Faith in Christs' blood satisfies God because Jesus has satisfied and appeased His Father.
Those whowm had faith for the Messiah and those who were faithful to their own consciences had remission of sins; the blood is how God withheld judgment on them.

[b]26[/b] [color=990000]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus.[/color]
God must be justified in justifying us.
Justifying us is justifiable because of Jesus blood satisfies the justice of God on all points.
[b]IOW[/b]: God can't just "sweep sin under the carpet", even of those before Christ; that would be unjustifiable, but God made our justification in a way that would clear Himself from any injustice.

[b]Romans 4:15[/b] [color=990000]Because the law works wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.[/color]
The Law works wrath because there is no coverage of sin with only the works of the law.
Working to the law proves one has no faith; where there is no faith, there is no coverage of sin, therefore, wrath.
Where there is faith, there is no works of the law, therefore, no wrath.

[b]Romans 5:12[/b] [color=990000]Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned[/color]
The term “therefore” shows us that Paul is still writing about justification by faith. He is not starting a new subject about “original sin or sin nature”

Just as the first transgression was introduced into the world by Adam...
...so [physical] death came into the world through [that] sin...
...and so [physical] death spread to all men because all sinned. (all sinned from Adam until the writing of this letter & so far as mankind will continue to sin by choice from then on)

[b]Let's break it down:
"as by one man, sin entered into the world;"[/b]
Just that, the first transgression was introduced into the world by Adam. Nothing more must be read into this

[b]"and through sin, death (entered into the world)"[/b]
through that particular sin, physical death came by Adam being severed from the Tree of Life

[b]"so also [physical] death passed to all me"[/b]
physical death passed to all because the way to the tree of life was cut off and also we are all subject to temporariness and are under the bondage of corruption.(Rom 8:20-23)

God subjected creation to these in hope for the glorious liberation of the children of God waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our body (Rom 8:20-23)
Flesh was never supposed to be eternal.
Even if Adam had never sinned, he would not have lived forever, even if he would not have eaten from the Tree of Life.

[b]upon all whom have sinned[/b]
but not to the extent that in the future people have already sinned "in Adam" already.

[b]13:[/b] [color=990000](For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.[/color]
Offence was in the world before Law (see Romans 3:31), but sin is not accounted to where there is no law;
However, sin against ones own conscience is different from sin against God, and therefore, judged diferently.
See - Acts 17:30a

[b]14:[/b] [color=990000]Nevertheless[/color] [physical] [color=990000]death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that is to come.[/color]
See - Romans 8:21 & 1Corinthians 15:21-22 & :45
Adam had a Law (Thou shall not eat of the tree...), but, from him to Moses didn't except for the law written on their heart.

This physical death reigned because the way to the tree of life was cut off.
This was more of a mercy, so man would not live forever in the weakness of flesh and with the knowledge gained from each of our own sin; and so we may be resurrected in glory.

[b]…who is the figure of him that is to come.[/b]
Adam is a contradistinction or antithesis of Jesus.
Paul explains what he means that "Adam is a type” of Jesus in the following verses of this chapter.

[b]Rom 2:12[/b] [color=990000]For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;[/color]
Notice with out the law, one only perishes; but with the law, they will be judged by it.

What is the diference?
This verse is in context with the previous verse, [color=990000]For there is no respect of persons with God.[/color]
There is no undue bias of mind towards anyone with God.
Romans 2:7-9 is how God is not partial.
Being partial is to choose a certain particular for no reason at all, but just because you want, while all others being equal; using no criteria & making an arbitrary decision.
This is against God's character.
So:
As we learn in Romans1:20, 3:31 & 5:13 that without the law, there is no sin against God, but only sinning against ones own conscience.
And God, not having any undue bias toward anyone, shall reward every man according to his works(Mat 16:27), weather good or bad, according to ones conscience or the law. This will also explain Romans 2:14-16

[b]Romans 2:13[/b] [color=990000](For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.[/color]
See - James 1:22-25