It is not about being guilty "in" Adam except. . .

[color=000000]It is more than just being about guilt. By His death, Jesus Christ took the penalty of sin away. That penalty being death. It cannot be denied that death was propagated by the blood of Adam. Life is propagated by the Blood Of Jesus Christ. David said this about himself: "In sin did my mother conceive me". Jesus was not conceived in sin. The line of death was broken and more: It was conquered. Jesus made, "drawing nigh unto God", possible. Hebrews 7:19 (KJV)

One further remark: I did not infer that we experienced a Spiritual death when Adam transgressed. I don't believe man did. Though our spirits were separated from God that separation does not, in my estimation connote, separation from God's blessings as they were based upon obedience of man to God's law, written upon the heart. Too many men lived loving God after the transgression as evidence of this truth.. The revelation of God was unmistakable, to the righteous.

So, are we guilty of Adam's transgression?. NO! However, we carry the result being that of death, separation from God unless the Blood of Jesus Christ is appropriated to ourselves. He is the way out death and the way back in to a "life" relationship IN the Father.[/color]

Hello Intense,

I hope to comment on your post, without being required to offer scriptural proof in detail. Please receive this as a couple of thoughts for your melting pot, rather than for contention.

Too many men lived loving God after the transgression as evidence of this truth.. The revelation of God was unmistakable, to the righteous.

Who cannot love this God of grace?

One further remark: I did not infer that we experienced a Spiritual death when Adam transgressed. I don't believe man did. Though our spirits were separated from God that separation does not, in my estimation connote, separation from God's blessings as they were based upon obedience of man to God's law, written upon the heart.

I can't add to Paul's revelation. It seems that he is clear we needed a life-giving (quickening) spirit. That by itself suggests that the spirit we had before, was neither spiritually alive, nor, 'a life-giving spirit'.

Alive-to-God wrote:
Hello Intense,

I hope to comment on your post, without being required to offer scriptural proof in detail. Please receive this as a couple of thoughts for your melting pot, rather than for contention.

Too many men lived loving God after the transgression as evidence of this truth.. The revelation of God was unmistakable, to the righteous.

Is not this because He had begun to cover their sin with animal blood in Eden, and continued to communicate with them? Then, after the Flood, He offered a new covenant to Noah about seedtime and harvest - which is the basis of [color=003399]Matt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.[/color]

Who cannot love this God of grace?

One further remark: I did not infer that we experienced a Spiritual death when Adam transgressed. I don't believe man did. Though our spirits were separated from God that separation does not, in my estimation connote, separation from God's blessings as they were based upon obedience of man to God's law, written upon the heart.

Thus, there is a denial of the spiritual nature of sin, and its stranglehold on mankind, the spiritual serpent which was slain on the cross. John 3:14, 15; Numbers 21:9. 1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual... 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

I can't add to Paul's revelation. It seems that he is clear we needed a life-giving (quickening) spirit. That by itself suggests that the spirit we had before, was neither spiritually alive, nor, 'a life-giving spirit'.

None of that has anything to do with the subject. Sorry to disappoint you in that.

Hello Intense,

None of that has anything to do with the subject. Sorry to disappoint you in that.

So, are we guilty of Adam's transgression?. NO!

What do you believe being in bondage means if not being in bondage to that which binds you? I.e., death; separation from God BECAUSE of someone else's transgression? What were we set free from, if not that issue? What did redemption accomplish, if not freedom.

TO Intense:

There are numerous religions (cults) that deny the concept of original sin.

1. The Bahá'í's say man is born good and that we need education to reform ourselves. Likewise their predecessors Islam also teaches their is no original sin.

2. The Mormon church also denies it by saying that Adam did not fall from his state of innocence downward but actually fell upward. That by listening to the devils lies it actually gave him the opportunity to become a God. So in essence the Devil told the truth. (Jesus said the opposite that he was a liar and a murderer from the beginning)

3. Others, including the Catholic church, teach that the original sin in man can be erased by baptism and that we then sin of our own choice, it is then dealt with by taking the sacraments.

4. The International Church of Christ believes that everyone inherits the consequence of Adam's sin (physical death), and not his nature. Everyone seems to deal with this in different manners, but all in one way or another recognize man as not living to his potential.

Today, near the end of time, we find not only the cults listed above that deny original sin, but others amongst us, who have slipped into the body of Christ, trying to teach damnable heresies. When what they are teaching is pointed out to them as heresy, they never rely on Scripture to support their position. They cannot, because Scripture does not support them, and neither does Church History support them. So, they bring others like themselves with them to support the damnable heresy, to back them up, and to support their false teaching, and try to deceive others that what they teach is of Christ, and is of God.

[b]How many times is the word guilt found in the Old Testament and the New Testament? TWICE!
What does the Old Testament & the New Testament tell us about guilt[/b]?

[b]The word GUILT appears only twice in the Bible, in the Old testament, in Deuteronomy 19:13, and in Deuteronomy 21:9. However, Strongs Concordance does not even have a Hebrew word shown for the word guilt.

In other words, it was placed there by the Translators. There is no Hebrew word, found in the Old Testament, and no Greek word found in the New Testament for the word GUILT[/b]

(Deut 19:13)
13. Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.

(Deut 21:9)
9.So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the Lord.

Sincerely,

Walter

Intense wrote:
What do you believe being in bondage means if not being in bondage to that which binds you? I.e., death; separation from God BECAUSE of someone else's transgression? What were we set free from, if not that issue? What did redemption accomplish, if not freedom.

Yes, I guess. Why this addressed to me?

waltern wrote:

TO Intense:

There are numerous religions (cults) that deny the concept of original sin.

1. The Bahá'í's say man is born good and that we need education to reform ourselves. Likewise their predecessors Islam also teaches their is no original sin.

2. The Mormon church also denies it by saying that Adam did not fall from his state of innocence downward but actually fell upward. That by listening to the devils lies it actually gave him the opportunity to become a God. So in essence the Devil told the truth. (Jesus said the opposite that he was a liar and a murderer from the beginning)

3. Others, including the Catholic church, teach that the original sin in man can be erased by baptism and that we then sin of our own choice, it is then dealt with by taking the sacraments.

4. The International Church of Christ believes that everyone inherits the consequence of Adam's sin (physical death), and not his nature. Everyone seems to deal with this in different manners, but all in one way or another recognize man as not living to his potential.

Today, near the end of time, we find not only the cults listed above that deny original sin, but others amongst us, who have slipped into the body of Christ, trying to teach damnable heresies. When what they are teaching is pointed out to them as heresy, they never rely on Scripture to support their position. They cannot, because Scripture does not support them, and neither does Church History support them. So, they bring others like themselves with them to support the damnable heresy, to back them up, and to support their false teaching, and try to deceive others that what they teach is of Christ, and is of God.

[b]How many times is the word guilt found in the Old Testament and the New Testament? TWICE!
What does the Old Testament & the New Testament tell us about guilt[/b]?

[b]The word GUILT appears only twice in the Bible, in the Old testament, in Deuteronomy 19:13, and in Deuteronomy 21:9. However, Strongs Concordance does not even have a Hebrew word shown for the word guilt.

In other words, it was placed there by the Translators. There is no Hebrew word, found in the Old Testament, and no Greek word found in the New Testament for the word GUILT[/b]

(Deut 19:13)
13. Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.

(Deut 21:9)
9.So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the Lord.

Sincerely,

Walter

Intense wrote:
What do you believe being in bondage means if not being in bondage to that which binds you? I.e., death; separation from God BECAUSE of someone else's transgression? What were we set free from, if not that issue? What did redemption accomplish, if not freedom.

Hello Intense,

What do you believe being in bondage means if not being in bondage to that which binds you? I.e., death; separation from God BECAUSE of someone else's transgression? What were we set free from, if not that issue? What did redemption accomplish, if not freedom.

Perhaps you agree with Romans 6 as I do? That we must be baptised into Christ's death to receive this freedom? That to be baptised into Christ's death necessarily requires [u]repentance[/u], which is an acknowledgement of our own transgressions, iniquities, wickedness (ie 'sins'), and a desire to walk in newness of life [u]free from 'the sin'[/u] - not merely a mental assent towards freedom-from-association with Adam's transgression?

waltern, I appreciated your post. I know that we don't suffer from original guilt! Paul's allusions to 'conscience' might be the best way to read 'sense of failure' or any other synonym for 'feeling guilty', but I haven't studied that out properly, yet.

So sorry, Intense. It was directed to Alive-to-God.

Sincerely,

Walter

Intense wrote:
Yes, I guess. Why this addressed to me?

waltern wrote:

TO Intense:

There are numerous religions (cults) that deny the concept of original sin.

1. The Bahá'í's say man is born good and that we need education to reform ourselves. Likewise their predecessors Islam also teaches their is no original sin.

2. The Mormon church also denies it by saying that Adam did not fall from his state of innocence downward but actually fell upward. That by listening to the devils lies it actually gave him the opportunity to become a God. So in essence the Devil told the truth. (Jesus said the opposite that he was a liar and a murderer from the beginning)

3. Others, including the Catholic church, teach that the original sin in man can be erased by baptism and that we then sin of our own choice, it is then dealt with by taking the sacraments.

4. The International Church of Christ believes that everyone inherits the consequence of Adam's sin (physical death), and not his nature. Everyone seems to deal with this in different manners, but all in one way or another recognize man as not living to his potential.

Today, near the end of time, we find not only the cults listed above that deny original sin, but others amongst us, who have slipped into the body of Christ, trying to teach damnable heresies. When what they are teaching is pointed out to them as heresy, they never rely on Scripture to support their position. They cannot, because Scripture does not support them, and neither does Church History support them. So, they bring others like themselves with them to support the damnable heresy, to back them up, and to support their false teaching, and try to deceive others that what they teach is of Christ, and is of God.

[b]How many times is the word guilt found in the Old Testament and the New Testament? TWICE!
What does the Old Testament & the New Testament tell us about guilt[/b]?

[b]The word GUILT appears only twice in the Bible, in the Old testament, in Deuteronomy 19:13, and in Deuteronomy 21:9. However, Strongs Concordance does not even have a Hebrew word shown for the word guilt.

In other words, it was placed there by the Translators. There is no Hebrew word, found in the Old Testament, and no Greek word found in the New Testament for the word GUILT[/b]

(Deut 19:13)
13. Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.

(Deut 21:9)
9.So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the Lord.

Sincerely,

Walter

Intense wrote:
What do you believe being in bondage means if not being in bondage to that which binds you? I.e., death; separation from God BECAUSE of someone else's transgression? What were we set free from, if not that issue? What did redemption accomplish, if not freedom.

Alive-to-God wrote:
Hello Intense,

What do you believe being in bondage means if not being in bondage to that which binds you? I.e., death; separation from God BECAUSE of someone else's transgression? What were we set free from, if not that issue? What did redemption accomplish, if not freedom.

I mistakenly thought we'd covered this ground in the other thread 'Adam's sin ... our guilt?'

Perhaps you agree with Romans 6 as I do? That we must be baptised into Christ's death to receive this freedom? That to be baptised into Christ's death necessarily requires [u]repentance[/u], which is an acknowledgement of our own transgressions, iniquities, wickedness (ie 'sins'), and a desire to walk in newness of life [u]free from 'the sin'[/u] - not merely a mental assent towards freedom-from-association with Adam's transgression?

waltern, I appreciated your post. I know that we don't suffer from original guilt! Paul's allusions to 'conscience' might be the best way to read 'sense of failure' or any other synonym for 'feeling guilty', but I haven't studied that out properly, yet.

For the purpose of this discussion I don't see the connection. Sorry.

Hi waltern,

So sorry, Intense. It was directed to Alive-to-God.

Btw, I thought your post was addressed to Intense (apart from because you addressed it so) because of this statement (p30) in the other thread * in which he wrote:

'Sin is NOT the cause of the sinful action. Man's determination to serve himself, is. Change the "self-serving determination factor" and eliminate the sin issue. Serve God and be blameless.'

And when I challenged this gently, received this reply, (which I have only just now found):

'No you may not offer it. Folk are going to be judged by what they do, as in works, deeds.

First consider Adam did not have a so-called, "sin nature" when he transgressed.'

I shall reply in the other thread, now.

To Logic:

I find it interesting that you believe that mankind has "inherited guilt" from Adam.

Where is the Bible “teaching”, the Bible “Doctrine” of inherited Guilt from Adam to be found?

What does the Old Testament & the New Testament tell us about[b] guilt[/b]?

The word[b] guilt[/b] appears twice in the Bible, and only in the Old testament- In Deuteronomy 19:13, and in Deuteronomy 21:9.[b] However, Strongs Concordance does not even have a Hebrew word shown for the word GUILT. In other words, it was placed in there by the Translators, it did not exist in the original text.[/b]

Deut 19:13
13.Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.

Deut 21:9
9.So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the Lord.

[b]How about the word guilty? Where does it appear throughout the entire Bible, and what does it mean?[/b]

The word Guilty only appears 26 times in the Bible-20 times in the Old Testament, and 6 times in the New Testament.[b] However, of the 20 times it appears in the Old Testament, only 17 words appear in Strongs Concordance. What this means is that the translators injected the word “guilty” into the text 3 times.[/b]

The same word “asham” for guilty appears in the following verses of the Old Testament
Genesis 42:21; Lev 4:13; 4:22; 4:27; 5:2; 5:3; 5:4; 5:5; 5:17; 6:4 Numbers 5:6; Judges 21:22; Ezra 10:19; Proverbs 30:10; Ezekiel 22:4; Zechariah 11:5

This is what the word means:
Strong's Number: 816
Transliterated: 'asham
Phonetic: aw-sham'

Text: or mashem {aw-shame'}; a primitive root; [b]to be guilty; by implication to be punished or perish: --X certainly, be(-come, made) desolate, destroy, X greatly, be(-come, found, hold) guilty, offend (acknowledge offence), trespass. [/b]
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[b]The word guilty appears in the following Bible verses: in the Old Testament:
Exodus 34:7; Number 14:18; Numbers 35:27
However, Strongs Concordance does not even have a Hebrew word shown for the word Guilty. In other words, it was placed in there by the Translators.[/b]

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[b]In Numbers 35:31 we find the word guilty, with the following meaning, and it is tied to the understanding of one WHO HAS ALREADY BEEN CONDEMNED, THAT ONE HAS ALREADY DONE WRONG, THAT ONE IS A WICKED PERSON, THAT ONE IS A "BAD PERSON":[/b]
Strong's Number: 7563
Transliterated: rasha`
Phonetic: raw-shaw'

A primitive root; to be (causatively, do or declare) wrong; by implication, to disturb, violate: --condemn, make trouble, vex, be (commit, deal, depart, do) wicked(-ly, -ness).
Text: from 7561; morally wrong; concretely, an (actively) bad person: --+ condemned, guilty, ungodly, wicked (man), that did wrong.
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[b]In Matthew 23:18 we find the word guilty used. It has the meaning that the person owes a debt (pecuniarily), one who is under obligation, one who morally fails (morally bankrupt), one who owes a debt.[/b]

Strong's Number: 3784
Transliterated: opheilo
Phonetic: of-i'-lo

Text: or (in certain tenses) its prolonged form opheileo {of-i-leh'-o}; probably from the base of 3786 (through the idea of accruing); to owe (pecuniarily); figuratively, to be under obligation (ought, must, should); morally, to fail in duty: --behove, be bound, (be) debt(-or), (be) due(-ty), be guilty (indebted), (must) need(-s), ought, owe, should.

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[b]In Matthew 26:66; Mark 14:64 & 1 Cor 11:27 we find the same Greek word for guilty. The word implies that the person has either done or said something themselves, and they are judged guilty.

Text: from 1758; liable to (a condition, penalty or imputation): --in danger of, guilty of, subject to.

In Matthew 26:66[b] we find the word guilty, that refers to High Priest judgment on Jesus after Jesus declared that Hew was Messiah: “64. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65. Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66. What think ye?[b] They answered and said, He is guilty of death.[/b]

[b]Mark 14:64. We find the same situation, where Jesus is pronounced guilty of blasphemy for declaring that He is the Messiah:
64. Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.[/b]

[b]1 Cor 11:27 – refers to one who takes communion unworthily, and then he is judged to be guilty after taking communion unworthily (he is judged as guilty for his own sin, not anothers)[/b]
.
27. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
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[b] James 2:10

We find the following word used for guilty, which implies that the person who offends by breaking just one of the laws of God, is guilty (himself) of breaking all of the law[/b]

8. If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9. But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Strong's Number: 1777
Transliterated: enochos
Phonetic: en'-okh-os

Text: from 1758; liable to (a condition, penalty or imputation): --in danger of, guilty of, subject to.

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In Romans 3:19 we find another word used for guilty:
Strong's Number: 5267
Transliterated: hupodikos
Phonetic: hoop-od'-ee-kos

Text: from 5259 and 1349; under sentence, i.e. (by implication) condemned: --guilty.

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So, where is the teaching of inherited Guilt? The word Guilt is not found in the New Testament, and is not used in the New Testament. The word Guilt is found 3 times in the Old Testament, but it is not even a Hebrew word and was placed there by the translators.

The word Guilty is also found in the Old Testament, but of the 20 times it is mentioned, it was actually only a word 17 times. So again, the translators inserted the word "guilty" that was not in the original text.

When [b]Guilty[/b] is used as a real word in the Old Testament, it has the following two meanings:

[b]In Numbers 35:31 we find the word guilty, with the following meaning, and it is tied to the UNDERSTANDING OF ONE ALREADY BEEN CONDEMNED, THAT ONE HAS ALREADY DONE WRONG, THAT ONE IS A WICKED PERSON, THAT ONE IS A "BAD PERSON":[/b]

The Secong definition for guilty, as found in the Old Testament is:

The same word “asham” for guilty appears in the following verses of the Old Testament
Genesis 42:21; Lev 4:13; 4:22; 4:27; 5:2; 5:3; 5:4; 5:5; 5:17; 6:4 Numbers 5:6; Judges 21:22; Ezra 10:19; Proverbs 30:10; Ezekiel 22:4; Zechariah 11:5

Thus, in this case it refers to someone being found or held guilty for an actual offense or a trespass.

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In the New Teatament the word GUILT does not exist.

In the New Testament the word GUILTY is found ONLY 6 times, and has the following meanings when used:

Strong's Number: 3784
Text: or (in certain tenses) its prolonged form opheileo {of-i-leh'-o};.........to owe (pecuniarily); figuratively, to be under obligation (ought, must, should); morally, to fail in duty: --behove, be bound, (be) debt(-or), (be) due(-ty), be guilty (indebted), (must) need(-s), ought, owe, should.
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Strong's Number: 1758 : enecho
Phonetic: en-ekh'-o
Text: from 1722 and 2192; to hold in or upon, i.e. ensnare; by implication, to keep a grudge: --entangle with, have a quarrel against, urge.
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Strong's Number: 1777
Transliterated: enochos
Phonetic: en'-okh-os

Text: from 1758; liable to (a condition, penalty or IMPUTATION): --in danger of, guilty of, subject to.
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Strong's Number: 5267
Transliterated: hupodikos
Phonetic: hoop-od'-ee-kos

Text: from 5259 and 1349; under sentence, i.e. (by implication) condemned: --guilty.

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[b][color=990000]To sum this up, in the New Testament, the word Guilty appears only 6 times, and has the following meanings when used:

#1 Strong's Number: 3784 to owe (pecuniarily); figuratively, to be under obligation (ought, must, should); morally, to fail in duty: --behove, be bound, (be) debt(-or), (be) due(-ty), be guilty (indebted), (must) need(-s), ought, owe, should.

#2 Strong' Number 1758; liable to (a condition, penalty or IMPUTATION): --in danger of, guilty of, subject to.

#3 Strong's Number: 1777 & 1778; liable to (a condition, penalty or imputation): --in danger of, guilty of, subject to.

#4 Strong's Number: 5267 under sentence, i.e. (by implication) condemned: --guilty.

Please, show me the teaching, the DOCTRINE of mans INHERITED GUILT from Adam that is found in the Bible.[/color][/b]

Thank you,

Walter

Logic wrote:

waltern wrote:
Today, near the end of time, we find not only the cults listed above that deny original sin, but others amongst us, who have slipped into the body of Christ, trying to teach damnable heresies.

Okay, hold on on minute!

How is it damnable when one claimes that "original sin" is not true?

they never rely on Scripture to support their position. They cannot, because Scripture does not support them

My position relies on Scripture to support it.
All I do is suport it with a better interpretation of Scripture, commone sence, and logic.

and neither does Church History support them.

Chirch history has always been split on this issue, so you can't use that as a point.

AND
Whats your point with "guilt"?