Some faith and receiving verses I don't really totally understand...?

There are some general prosperity verses like

Malachi 3:10 -Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.

,but that may be Old Testament and interpreted to spiritual ends.

Then there is

Luke 6:38 - Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it shall be measured to you again.

, so I am not sure if this means that anything we give including money will be given back to us.

Or

2 Corinthians 9:8 - And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Which is also in context of giving and receiving.

I am sure there are other verses.

Lastly, I will remark on this verse pertaining to ask and receive healing which would infer it is God's will for everyone to be healed if only they would believe and live and do correctly

James 5:14-15 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up.

Concluding, I would say that I hold to a position that it is not God's will to heal all before the 2nd coming not even those who have faith and live holy and are under spiritual elders ect. Nor am I persuaded that all the money and whatever else we give will be given back to us and multiplied even. I think that sometime God would have us suffer, or be tested, or just have some prophetic plan for us that does not include natural blessing. I don't know maybe I am wrong and would like to open up the discussion and hear from others. These are not the only verses I mean there are many others about believing and receiving this or that.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=63]Gladys Aylward - Testimony[/url]

Listen to this woman give her testimony!! She speaks specifically about Malachi 3.10 and translates the Chinese version of this verse and it's beautiful. [i]"The great, over and above all One, Jehovah, who controls the hosts leans saying, "If you will bring into my storehouse your [b]completed[/b] tithe that my family may be sustained, then you can prove me and see if I will not open wide windows in heaven pouring out blessings so many you will never be able to use them all."[/i]

Her explanation of what the Lord has shown her about this verse proves that all doesn't meet the eyes!!

We from America usually tend to see things from a "prosperity" TO US WARD!! Does that make sense? LOL

I'd say there is another way (God's way) to these verse than we realize!

God bless you!

Lysa,

thank you for your reply. I think I see what you are saying. You are saying that we think that Christianity and the Gospel and so forth is all about us instead of the glory of God first. So possibly you are saying that this receiving will be us receiving to give to God or something.

bible4life,

That point about Paul was a good point. I think I have heard some people debate whether is was an illness or something, I am not sure if it had any legitimacy to it. So I guess it would just depend on the will of God. Possibly though we often think it is His will to not heal more then it really is. I mean if James says you "will" be healed and Paul blames the Corinthians sickness on them not taking the Lord supper with the right attitudes then possibly there should be many more healing then there are and possibly to not be healed is more of the exception then the rule or majority. Lastly, the life of Jesus healing so many and using it as a witness to say if I can heal you naturally then I can surely heal you spiritually. I mean God greatly desires to propogate His Gospel and so much of the burden is on us and this I can say by revelation. I feel like I am receiving more clarity on this topic as much of my denomination though claiming to believe in gifts yet lack emphasis and practice in it and often shuns it. So if God wants to propogate then Gospel then He surely wants to heal since signs and wonders is proof that God is working with you.

As for us never wanting to receive back I am not sure that is totally true. I say this because Jesus seeks to motivate us by rewards. One might say well out reward is to give more glory to God and sacrifice more. I am not sure that is totally legit. I think that when we are blessed then God is glorified even in that. And that not only will we receive rewards but we will be able to use those rewards to serve God. Last thought is the scripture that states that the least on earth will be served in heaven.

I have been listening to Derek Prince, he has some excellent messages on his website. He talks about how Jesus has done it all on the cross, I don't know why we are always limiting the work that Jesus did on the cross, if we do that we are saying that Jesus did it for nothing.
In regards to healing, it says in Isaiah 53:
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
Please do not be one of those people that say it means our spiritual healing only.
He went to the cross for all we need.
I know why alot of people don't want to think like this, it is because there are so many lukewarm christians out there, that does not mean to say that we have to swing the total opposite way, I know I tended to do this when I first realised that I had been lukewarm, but God in His graciousness, has helped me see that it does not have to be this way. He has done it all for me, how blessed am I, that does not mean that I grab at all the things He has done, all I want is His will for my life, I love Him more than my life & would be willing to lay my life down for Him.
But in the meantime I will be expectant for Him to move in me by His precious Holy Spirit & if that means He wants to bless me, I will not be saying no. He knows what we can handle & He will not give us any more than that.

Chrismo,

I wont say that it is only spiritual. I cant say for sure that it means natural for if such were the case and someone interpreted it to mean everyone should be healed since everyone should be saved I am not quite persuaded that all are willed to be healed at least that is now on earth though I am sure by the renewal of all things.

I would have at once said it was only spiritual but I am not at this point going to say that for sure. I would say this though that if that verse meant that healing and the Gospel were one and the same then would not all who were actually saved be healed. Or if we are to be healed then why don't we just have body that we rid of any corruption but the truth is no matter how healthy we are we all have some degree of corruption since we are all dying.

I also thought lets say for instance that all the OT promises were all to us as natural. Lets say the majority of a nation turns to God. Does that then mean that the nation will get blessed naturally. Would that not be kingdom now theology. I am not so sure about those transformations videos where a bunch of crops and so forth were claimed to come forth because the people were turning to God. I haven't seen it so I cant say. This would go further into saying that the US was like the nation of God or something at one point. So my point is is that it is not always wrong to interpret OT passages spiritually. I am not ready to go to the extreme and say that God does not bless nations. I would however also state that much of what God does is through martyrdom and such as in China.

We can look in the New Testament at Mat 8:
16When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. 17This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
"He took up our infirmities
and carried our diseases."
I can take this no other way than physical healing.
I believe that the reason alot of don't get healed is that we truly don't believe in healing.
Mat 9:2-7 Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."

3At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!"

4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7And the man got up and went home.
I think these days most people think it is easier to be saved than be healed, but when Jesus walked it was easier for them to believe in healing than in saying your sins are forgiven.
Part of this is because becoming a christian has been made as small as saying a prayer, when we all know it is a lifestyle.

anonymity wrote:
....So if God wants to propogate then Gospel then He surely wants to heal since signs and wonders is proof that God is working with you.

Just a quick note. In the bible proof of God working in and with you is the fruits of the spirit and not signs and wonders. (By their fruits you shall know them.... Many will say ..perform miracles. Then I will tell them plainly, "i never knew you.....Matthew 7:15-23) And I also disagree with the statement that 'to propogate the Gospel, then He surely wants to heal.' He mat/may not chose to heal, my suspicion is more often than not He chose not to heal the physical illness in these times as compared to bible times.

Learn,

In the bible proof of God working in and with you is the fruits of the spirit and not signs and wonders. (By their fruits you shall know them.... Many will say ..perform miracles. Then I will tell them plainly, "i never knew you.....Matthew 7:15-23)

Acts 2:22

Acts 14:3

2 Corinthians 12:12

Hebrews 2:4

I also disagree with the statement that 'to propogate the Gospel, then He surely wants to heal.'

He mat/may not chose to heal, my suspicion is more often than not He chose not to heal the physical illness in these times as compared to bible times.

Hi Anonymity,

I did read your previous posts before replying earlier. and I do know that you have mentioned that you are not persuaded that God will heal all earlier, thus I had to say I was also somewhat surprised to see when you posted those sentences which I quoted you in my earlier post.

However, the only reason I wrote what I wrote earlier is because I think those few (not all) sentences of yours may mislead those newer to the faith and its and not because I'm interested in debating this matter (although I can understand that my post may have given some sort of this impression). Thus, that's why I quoted only a few scriptures to explain and 'talked' very little.

anonymity wrote:
This is something I would like to remark on if I may. Your suspicion may be rooted in an evil heart of unbelief. It may not I don't know, but I can say in the past it has been for me. I was convinced that it was not, but that is the nature of deception that you do not know you are deceived.

Still no interest to debate on this matter (although I do not agree with your views in your latest posts) except to say that no, my suspicion is not rooted in an evil heart of unbelief as you seem to think it may possibly be. Each of us have our own journey with God
and each of us will have difficulty and be possibly deceived in different areas (and sometimes the same areas).

Learn,

I see so you thought some of the sentences I wrote sounded off. I probably could have written more exactly. I was hoping though that in saying what I did that they would be taken in context, but I understand that this does not always happen. But, yeah, like I said I do believe that since God wants to save He also wants to give signs since signs lead to salvation. This is not always the case, but I'd say most of the time. However, I mean HE always wants to but it is the people who are disobedient in some way and because of that HE does not want to though He does if you see what I am saying. So in one sense He wants to heal the Pharisee but in another sense He does not once again if you see what I am saying.

I do not want to argue either. I do however like to discuss these things for edification. Some people cannot discuss without arguing which is sad, but it is what it is. It is true we are all at different places in our walk and the Lord is working in all of us in different ways.

Neil,

Hello brother God bless you.

I think you have noticed that I sometimes post questions that can be difficult. I do not post to be difficult but because they are difficult and I would like to discuss them to have them answered. I hope that you notice that I am not posting and then arguing or something. I am just trying to discuss and it is true that sometimes people will aruge or something which can be de edifying, but I don't really know what to do about that on a forum like this you have young and old strict and relaxed.

As for bringing these topics up and the need to ect. I think that it is important to bring these topics up. I also understand that the main thing is the love of Christ and so forth but these truths are tied to true love they are one and the same. I know that these topics can be discussed in a false spirit, but my aim is truth. I like to talk about prosperity, pre destination, and premillenialism all of these doctrines have practical value to how we walk. For instance much of the Church is going down false paths because of their lack of true doctrine.

Thanks for the exhortation and I know the importance of it and need to be reminded. I have partook in conversation about doctrine that was done in the flesh and for a time decided not to talk about doctrine but I do not want to go to extremes.

Bible4life,

Yes it is true that sings will only come to those who are obedient. I tried to kind of clear it up with Learn a second ago saying that God wants to heal most people but most people are disobedient so He in another sense does not want to heal most people though He does initially. For example God wants to save all people but if they don't repent He also wants to send them to hell.

There are false signs today and I would say many maybe most that are claimed to be are false. But, if you notice I have been talking about genuine miracles those which overcome the false signs from sorcerers like in Egypt with Moses.

I would agree that the main sign is loving God and one another. However I do not want to say that importance of signs are little. As it says signs will follow those who believe it is an integral part of evangelism and one of the main workings of God. I say with Paul I would that you lacked in no gift. It is vital.

As for those teachers which teach Cessationism or that the gifts have ceased I would say are emphatically false. I would even say that as we as conservative Christians take other false teaching seriously that we should also take this false teaching as such. I have thought about this view and studied it over thoroughly. They'd say that the gifts were only for the founding of the Church maybe kind of sort of like a kick start. They will sight the verse which says that the Apostle and prophets were for the foundation of the Church. It sure says that but it does not say that they have ceased or that we do not need that foundation to continue. I'll say again Joel tells us that in the last days that Spirit will be poured out on all flesh and they prophesy ect and this is in context to the tribulation ect and this has yet to occur. And I just thought if prophets have ceased then who are the 2 witnesses who blow fire from their mouths are they not prophets and do they not prophesy. Or if signs have ceased then where did the fire come from.

The mass of the Churches theology of eschatology is fundamentally off. As God delivered Israel from Egypt so He is coming to deliver His people from the Pharaoh Satan and from this world. So as God worked in that time mightily so He will again in the last time. The best times of the Church have not past but they are yet to be and to crescendo. Just as our salvation is greater so will be the signs.

Bible4life,

I hope so I try not to be extreme and look at all things sincerely.

As for the cessasionist thing. I understand that much of their stance on the subject is motivated by not wanting to be mixed up with all the false things going on today and I sympathize with that. I'd say also though that sometimes in us not wanting to be like something or attacking something we find false that we jump to the other extreme. My perception is that many different ministries "emphasize" in different things. The reason for this is because they have received revelation in this area. It is hard to find a well rounded ministry because it is hard to have revelation in many different things. A lot of the time a person who is gifted in the body as an evangelist will emphasize that ministry and then they will divide with pastors and that is just the way it is. This is why we need to continues in apostolic growth. Some of it is also based just on unbelief as well since these things are little seen but we need to derive our theology from scripture not from what we see. Hard times and I pray that the body comes to completion and that I not be one to tear things down in negativity.