sermonindex
May 25, 2009
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[color=000000]. . . what is the mark of a born again individual?[/color]
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[color=000000]. . . what is the mark of a born again individual?[/color]
They trust God.
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
- Mark 14:62
Interesting. I should think it would read that we will see the Son of God sitting there.
I wonder why it doesn't?
Psa 68:11
You asked: [i]If Noah, who was not born again, was a preacher of righteousness . . what is the mark of a born again individual?
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but [b]ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And [b]if
The preceding verses are full of 'if'.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, [b]if[b]if[b]if[b]if[b]if[b]but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live
The word "IF" is used more than 1500 times throughout the Bible.
So what is the mark a new born individual?
To be born again is to be born of the Spirit of God. The person has been quickened, made alive by the Spirit of God. The marks would be the fruit of the Spirit...
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Good folks of SI,
Just want to issue a warning to those who have not been on this forum for very long that Intense has been attempting to spread false doctrines on this site for many years now, usually under the nickname Ormly. If you do a search under that name you will find much that will give you an understanding of the merry-go-round that he has attempted to put this forum on in the past.
Lately he appears to be attempting to use the methods of diaprax to get others to accept his different doctrinal positions. For those who are not familar with diaprax, the method goes something like this; The facilitator (Intense in this case) attempts to interrogate a person regarding their position on an issue. This is done by using a series of select questions that will most effectively break down the persons confidence in his position. This is an attempt to prepare people to accept a differing position.
In the past Ormly has shown no propensity toward honest and open dialog concerning the issues he brings up, he is only interested in pushing his position on others and is quite often prone to ad-hominem arguments instead if really arguing the point when his position is challenged scripturally. Be aware.
In Christ,
Ron
Thank you Ron for warning us. I was also warned by another long time member about not to be deceived by the false teachings that Intense/Ormly has been trying to put forth.
I will be praying for you Intense/Ormly, sadly the things you are attempting to persuade others to believe are not Biblical. Sadly your focus seems to be very much on self, and what self can accomplish. Our focus should only be on Jesus and what He has done for us.
rdg
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
- Mark 14:62Interesting. I should think it would read that we will see the Son of God sitting there.
I wonder why it doesn't?
The terms 'Son of Man' and 'Son of God' were in common use amongst Jewish people of Christ's time. What sets Him apart is that He called Himself "The" Son of Man and "The" Son of God.
As to your question I don't find it confusing at all. It would have only been natural for Him to have said the Son of God because as that He had always shared that communion with God. But now as the Son of Man He will return with authority from God to judge the world. Where you're trying to lead with this I don't know.
Quote: "To be born again is to be born of the Spirit of God. The person has been quickened, made alive by the Spirit of God. The marks would be the fruit of the Spirit...
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another".
Eze 11:19 "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"
This is the core of being a Christian, a new life in God, growing more and more in faith, hope, love; the three things which will remain.
There is a change in moral character. Security, satisfaction, values, and pursuit in life is now anchored (from our own conceit and vain imaginations) in the Lord Jesus Christ.
There are many who would like to be called Christians and we extend our best intentions to them but as the apostle Paul said " Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity" Ti 2:19.
The New Testament is full of admonitions, life examples, precepts, and instructions to the real believers, those who are His will follow and abide with them, it will show in their thougts, in the way they walk, work, and talk
Noah wasn't merely a preacher of righteousness, he was righteous, and found favor with God. If God declares you righteous, you cannot help but become born again, no matter what dispensation you were born under. When God declares you righteous, you actually become what God says you are by the power of His creative word, through the quickening of the Holy Spirit. I find it fascinating that Paul uses two old testament saints, Abraham and David, to build his theology of justification and a (regenerated) circumcised heart on, in Romans 3 through 4.
How else could it have been that in Noah's time that men's hearts and minds were continually focused on evil, while Noah was pure except for the miracle of the new birth? Most of us are not even so pure in our own thought life as righteous Noah was... and he was living in the old dispensation!
Hi KJ,
What?
Paul never suggests Abraham was born again.
That is the whole point of explaining that it was his agreement with God's word to him, which [u]God
Under the New Covenant, there are many differences, especially that Christ is our righteousness and it is quite a different experience than Noah or Abraham ever had.
Note also, both those OT saints were before Moses, when Paul clearly stated that death reigned.
The idea of being 'born again' had never been mentioned until Jesus used the terminology to Nicodemus. But, Noah sought favour with God, and found it. His father had been alive with Adam, and interestingly, Noah also overlapped with Abraham for quite a few years.
The writer to the Hebrews refers to Moses as 'a servant' in the house of Israel, whereas Jesus said to Peter 'then are the children free'.
There's a very big difference.
Paul never suggests Abraham was born again.
It is poor theology to split Paul's theology of justification and regeneration apart from each other. Paul's doctrine of justification is intimately wrapped together with his doctrine of regeneration, of which he used two old testament saints to prove his doctrine.
Under the New Covenant, there are many differences, especially that Christ is our righteousness and it is quite a different experience than Noah or Abraham ever had.
"The Lord Our Righteousness" is very much an Old Testament concept, especially in the writings of Jeremiah.
Note also, both those OT saints were before Moses, when Paul clearly stated that death reigned.
Death reigned, yes, but he also said during this time grace much more abounded.
The idea of being 'born again' had never been mentioned until Jesus used the terminology to Nicodemus.
The idea of a "circumcised heart," (being born again) is Old Testament lingo for the new birth, which is why Jesus was so surprised that Nicodemus, as a teacher of Israel, didn't understand.
The writer to the Hebrews refers to Moses as 'a servant' in the house of Israel, whereas Jesus said to Peter 'then are the children free'.
Actually, Hebrews teaches that Moses was a servant of the household of faith, whereas Jesus was the builder of it. If you carefully read Hebrews 3:1-6, you will notice there is only one household. Jesus is the builder, Moses is the slave. 1 Cor 10:4 also makes it clear, the children of Israel drank from the same spiritual rock that we do.
KingJimmy wrote:
Noah wasn't merely a preacher of righteousness, he was righteous, and found favor with God.
Yes! And that was the reason he was chosen.
If God declares you righteous, you cannot help but become born again, no matter what dispensation you were born under.
Rebirth birth has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
When God declares you righteous, you actually become what God says you are by the power of His creative word, through the quickening of the Holy Spirit.
And all who were declared so bu God in the OT still never went to heaven when the died. How come?
How else could it have been that in Noah's time that men's hearts and minds were continually focused on evil, while Noah was pure except for the miracle of the new birth? Most of us are not even so pure in our own thought life as righteous Noah was... and he was living in the old dispensation!
It never requires a new birth to be righteous. It does require the new birth to live by the righteousness of Jesus Christ and those who are born again are required to live by His righteousness. However, Noah was never born again and was the last one of his generation who had not yet succumbed to the temptation of unrighteous acts of evil.
#1. The new birth was not possible. That should be elementary to anyone who understands John 3.3 and 5. The very first experience of new birth was John 20.22. Note, speaking of the disciples, that this is after justification by faith and redemption by the Blood, this occurred and not before.. Romans 5.1. It is vitally important that this is understood.
Hi KJ,
I lost the post I'd prepared a few minutes ago, and don't want to re-write it right now.
Perhaps you could explain - 'if' Noah and Abraham were 'born again' - why the Son of God become Man, and died on a cross?
I have always understood the work of the cross as an essential pre-requisite for new birth; how do you do away with it for those Old Testament saints, and what was the purpose of the Law of Moses, if new birth was possible without it?
I feel my head beginning to hurt... lol
Krispy
"Lately he appears to be attempting to use the methods of diaprax to get others to accept his different doctrinal positions. For those who are not familar with diaprax, the method goes something like this; The facilitator (Intense in this case) attempts to interrogate a person regarding their position on an issue. This is done by using a series of select questions that will most effectively break down the persons confidence in his position" Inthelight
Thank you Ron, this explains a lot of questions I had concerning not just doctrine but motives. I'm afraid there are more here as well.
The only way I could have described it without knowing the actual 'techniques' is 'circular theological argument' that never seems designed for any conclusion except that which the poster presents. The good news is that after awhile they stick out like a sore thumb even though the bait is often taken.
These issues you presented don't just go to doctrine, but character. Anything designed to be less than honest and/or transparent in motive is deceptive. They seem to thrive on constantly presenting and arguing over 'theological wedge issues'.
It seems some on here do this as technique to introduce a particular doctrine, or just to stir the pot up. Either scenario in this motive wreaks of bad fruit!!!!
Intense,
Noah may have not been born again, but He was at least under the influence of the Holy Spirit and it was upon Him and working with Him.
If you read of David you will see much of the Spirit's work and how He had a heart after God's own heart.
I cannot say for sure but it could be that these men were actually born again though it was not fully revealed.
No man under the Law or Old Covenant could keep it by Himself for all have sinned and if it is by that standard they would all be consumed. So, you cannot say first you cannot say that when God called Him righteous that He meant he was perfect enough to keep the law perfectly his whole life nor that he was able to do it alone apart from the Spirit.
Also, you are trying to distinguish between living a righteous life and living by the righteousness of Jesus Christ and there is actually no difference. The law if perfect and so is Christ. Christ is not more perfect then the Law.
"IF" also you are saying that the OT men of God did not make it into the Kingdom at all then you are wrong in that.
Noah didn't find favor with God because of his own righteousness in the sense that you are saying. He was made righteous by faith as it says in Hebrews. Yes this faith is mingled with works but it is not the works that save you but merely the faith that produces works. It was Noah's faith/trust/belief/humility/dependence/surrender to God that made Him righteous. Once again it is not works that saves you but faith in Christ that will in turn result in works as fruit.
You cannot take isolate one passage and make a doctrine out of it you have to look at the whole of scripture and divide it rightly accordingly. Anyone can take out single verse or even a few and make just about any doctrine they want, though it be false.
anonymity wrote:
Intense,Noah may have not been born again, but He was at least under the influence of the Holy Spirit and it was upon Him and working with Him.
If you read of David you will see much of the Spirit's work and how He had a heart after God's own heart.
I cannot say for sure but it could be that these men were actually born again though it was not fully revealed.
Impossible. Their best shot in the OT was Justification by faith, in God. By his faith in God, Noah found favor. What can be the argument with that?
No man under the Law or Old Covenant could keep it by Himself for all have sinned and if it is by that standard they would all be consumed. So, you cannot say first you cannot say that when God called Him righteous that He meant he was perfect enough to keep the law perfectly his whole life nor that he was able to do it alone apart from the Spirit.
Keeping anything was dependent upon faith in God. Law keeping, that pleased God, was evidence of that faith. Job demonstrated that result.
Also, you are trying to distinguish between living a righteous life and living by the righteousness of Jesus Christ and there is actually no difference. The law if perfect and so is Christ. Christ is not more perfect then the Law.
For you to say that is to reveal you haven't read most posts very well nor are you grasping what Paul taught on the matter.
"IF" also you are saying that the OT men of God did not make it into the Kingdom at all then you are wrong in that.
Given Jn 3.3 and 5, how so?
Noah didn't find favor with God because of his own righteousness in the sense that you are saying.
Not so again. His faith in God produced a righteousness that was not self-righteousness.
He was made righteous by faith as it says in Hebrews. Yes this faith is mingled with works but it is not the works that save you but merely the faith that produces works. It was Noah's faith/trust/belief/humility/dependence/surrender to God that made Him righteous. Once again it is not works that saves you but faith in Christ that will in turn result in works as fruit.
Yep however, in Noah's case, it could only be faith in God. Jesus wasn't born and the Holy Spirit wasn't given. Elementary stuff, my friend.. .
:-)You cannot take isolate one passage and make a doctrine out of it you have to look at the whole of scripture and divide it rightly accordingly. Anyone can take out single verse or even a few and make just about any doctrine they want, though it be false.
Please turn that comment to yourself. I have just given you reasons to.
Intense,
Their best shot in the OT was Justification by faith, in God.
I will still say that even if they were not born again in a concealed way that they were seriously influenced by the Holy Spirit and therefore it was not by them but the grace of God for by nature man is enslaved to sin.
I was also saying that Noah was not righteous before God because of His own works of righteousness but by His faith which resulted in righteousness.
Job did not keep God's law perfectly He came to a point of practicing righteousness but He was not perfect.
For you to say that is to reveal you haven't read most posts very well nor are you grasping what Paul taught on the matter.
Given the fact that Enoch was taken to be with God how so?
Yep however, in Noah's case, it could only be faith in God. Jesus wasn't born and the Holy Spirit wasn't given. Elementary stuff, my friend.. .
Please be more clear about what you believe and what your aim is so that there is more clarity instead of revealing you stances piece by piece as you please and as favors your debating tactics.
This discussion is locked.