Your Opinion: Whats RIGHT with the Church?

Over on Bro. Lazarus thread - Your Opinion: Whats wrong with the church?https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2874&forum=35&6Sister Yodi posted this ...Quote;On here, we complain about how other Christians aren't doing things right. "They're too this" or "They're not enough of that". Why are we so busy pointing out, dissecting, and broadcasting others' "wrong" way of doing things? It's like arguing siblings on here sometimes; "Daddy, did you see what he/she did?!"So, in a vein of encouragement, what do you see that's right with the Church ... Any opinions?

Hmmmm, the first thing that comes to mind is the only true, right and good thing about the church is the Lord Himself. And the fact that He is restoring and building his Church Himself- and we can trust Him to carry this out. Just a thought. :)In Him, chanin

May I say I am encouraged to know that someone else out there asks the same question... What do you see that is right with the church?In leu of the "church" being of ourselves... that is if we be of Christ... for it is He who is the Temple and we are the stones which make up His Body called the "Church"... then I believe we have our answer to everyone's Babblings over What is wrong with the "church"... for if the Spirit is not Right within us... we can find no good thing in the "church". no good thing comes from the Heart of man... no, not one. For out of the Heart comes forth from the mouth defilement... being so... we speak against ourselves when make negative remarks about the church. We look at what everyone else is doing and not within ourselves... notice,we speak of: abandoning ourselves to our wants, desiresHim being our everythingwanting only His desiresmore of Him and less of uswe quote fine men with many scholarly written material; yet we still persist in taking in only what we choose to see... Wisdom is the fear of God... understanding is to shun evil. Wisdom is not found in Theological Advancement of Intellect... thus we adhere to men who have spent much study and prayer with written material to guide us in our walk... yet we still conclude that NO ONE ELSE IS WALKING IN OUR PATH... we are alone in our journey... and no one seems to see it as we do. That is funny to me... cause many on this board agree with them who seem to be walking alone... and there are many other boards who say the same. Can't be walking alone if you find agreement in your way of doing things. On the note of no good thing is found in the church... then that must be God is not found in us. Despise not the Flesh! Is it possible to abondon the Flesh? Only when we are dead in the grave. The question is not so much what is right or wrong with the "church"... I always heard that God asks for our sins... through self examination of acknowledging that we are sinners... with a contrite heart repentence and knowing we have a God who strenthens us to go sin no more. Good is of God... and in order for anyone to do any good they must have the abiding word of God in them, blood covered through Jesus and walking in the paths of righteousness. If we who speak against the "church" as we do so often... would grow to LOVE the "church" as He does... we would not spend so much time downgrading it. It is not the True Believer we should be so concerned with in our Murmmurings and Complainings... it is those who we know are of wickedness we are told to witness to... it is the lost, the children of satan... even tho they know not they are the children of satan... it is the ones who have come in unawares among us with their own agendas... it is the False Teachers and Subtle twistings of the Scriptures... it is those who we should speak against; not our own Bodies... Those who know their righteousness is of God; for it is He who is righteous... those who love others (including their own enemies)... those who study the word and not focus on many written materials and quotes... those whose leading is of the Holy Spirit and much is respected of Him... those whose prayers are of His Will "thy will be done" and whose Hearts are tender toward Mercy and Forgiveness... their Hearts are not hardened toward the Body. There are those who find the state of the "Church" as it is written in the word for the Last days before the coming of the King to be as it should be... and rejoice instead of "fault finding"... they shun the evil doings of the tares and they encourage the brother and sister called the wheat. None knows the heart of man... God does. It fairs us well to do as we are told to do... be wise as serpents and walk as doves... peaceably among men. search me oh God!... take not your Holy Spirit from me... Search ME! For my lips are unclean and my heart is not in right standing before YOU LORD. Purge my heart Lord that I might see and love as You Oh God. May I come and reason with You Lord and may I be found guiltless when You return... may I always remember it was because of your lovingkiness and mercy that brought me from a pit of damnation and that I may extend this mercy too to others who may one day be adopted into the Body of Brothers and Sisters called Christ's Kingdom. What is Right with the Church? I believe the question is what is Right Standing Before God?

Wow Productofgrace, What a refreshing and profound reply, and most encouraging, i'll be placing your postin my keep file, and will e-mail it out to some of my friends ...Over on "Your Opinion - What is wrong with the Church" i posted Christ's negative observations of His Bride ... So below i'm posting "What Christ sees as RIGHT/POSITIVE with His Bride ...Rev.2[1] Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;[2] I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:[3] And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.[6] But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.[8] And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;[9] I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews (Christians), and are not, but are the synagogue (Church) of Satan.[10] Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.[12] And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;[13] I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, [18] And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;[19] I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.[24] But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this (Nicolaitan) doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.[25] But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.Rev.3[1] And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.[2] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. [4] Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.[7] And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;[8] I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.[9] Behold, I will make them of the synagogue (Church) of Satan, which say they are Jews (Christians), and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.[10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, [22] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

With a bit of a disclaimer:Though I agree a bit that on the surface this seems to be the case, that;Quote;On here, we complain about how other Christians aren't doing things right. "They're too this" or "They're not enough of that". Why are we so busy pointing out, dissecting, and broadcasting others' "wrong" way of doing things? It's like arguing siblings on here sometimes; "Daddy, did you see what he/she did?!"This may be a bit of a misnomer. Think there is a difference between preference or opinion and trying to uphold the righteous requirements of what the Lord has told us how we ought to be, do and say. Certainly it is an imperfect outworking considering our status, that of being remarkably saved despite ourselves.In fact, this is one reason to rejoice about the church, that there are those that have grown weary with the sham, the compromise, the endless succession of Sunday services (Katz), going through the motions and a striving for something real, true and honest. Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.Seems impossible to me to not have to confront the false in whatever form it may take. Be it in word, deed or thought. Primarily in and of myself. There is no relish in doing so with other believers. Myself, I know who am or should I say I know enough of my own foolishness and potential to be deceived, tripped up, at times duplicity, hypocrisy, questionable motives etc. On top of that is a failure to adequately give expression from my spirit, converting it into words. Would much rather go the way of just ignoring the false gospels and all the outcroppings and just go sit in the bleachers.My opinion is just as worthless as the next in the grand scheme of things. But after being misled and caught up in so much poor teaching and bad doctrine can't but help to at least try and wrestle with these issues and help others as I have been helped. I just hate seeing people being misled, intentionally or not. So it just seems to be just as dishonest to sweep things under the rug because it appears we are to divisive, 'legalistic' or just complaining for the sake of complaining. It seems that is primarily why the church in a great majority is in the state it is in. No standard of holiness, a lack of the overwhelming sense of AWE of just who God is. We are being told in a sense that we shouldn't take these things so seriously, but the scriptures state otherwise.Jesus never minced words in dealing with people, never played to the crowd or was concerned about offending anybody. The embodiment of Truth. What did He have to say primarily to the 7 churches in The Revelation? "This I have against you"That there are those that want the truth at whatever the expense, in fact many that will not rest and are fighting for that very truth to come forth in the church as it should be. That is what is 'right' about the church and praise God for it! As much as it may at times appear otherwise here, the great part of us are striving hard after Him, to know Him more, to learn of Jesus, grow into His likeness and submit ourselves in loving obedience because of the incredible, beyond our capability to grasp love, that He has poured out on us who believe.I just want to please the Lord. To do right, live right, be right in His sight. If I am wrong, to be corrected, if my thinking is askew hopefully it will be corrected or challenged. This 'church' here has opened my eyes to so many things, has taught me so much and broadened my understanding and caused me to continually re-think things, it's ongoing process. In a bottom line sense it has caused a truer, deeper search of just what are my own motives for doing things...am I really being honest with myself? Beyond that it's not about 'myself' anyway, it truly is about Him.Think there is a huge mis-conception between the way a lot of things sound and what they are really attempting to do. A lot of the messages here could easily be dismissed on that surface premise that " these are hard teachings" or 'it just seems like they are always complaining' and well, they are! :-)But unto what? So that we can go grovel and have excessive mourning over our failures to live up to the ideal? Or do they cause a stir to press on, reach higher and go deeper. To forsake our sins and to 'hate every false way'. That is the one thing we should truly hate, as our Lord did.I have failed often here and apologize for my excessive zeal and often poorly chosen words. Wish to slander no one and in my bumbling, fumbling manner, surely it could be perceived that way, forgive me, it is not my intention.To help each other I think is a predominant characteristic of this 'church' here at SI. It gets messy in all this open heart surgery, especially with some of the surgeons... ;-) On the 'seriousness' of this faith, that I mentioned, want to state that while that is certainly true, perhaps we still tend to take ourselves a bit to seriously. Had a reminder of this last Saturday night.For reasons unknown to me I awoke in the middle of the night with this profound urgency and promptly got out of bed and with purpose and in full stride proceeded to walk face first into our fully closed door! :-P Apparently I had been sleep walking, not for long mind you, it woke up the wife and Josh heard the loud impact and came out to investigate. Now standing in the hall way dazed, trying to figure out just what I was doing there, failing to give off the impression that I had everything under control, turned and went back to sleep. Next day I kept recalling the incident and have been ever since, it was so ridiculously funny not share it with you all. It has humbled me and been a good reminder if I start to get all bent out of shape about things, causing fit's of hysterical laughter. A good reminder of what a dork I am. :-P

God is right now keeping people who are striving after the true gospel, Amen!There are some missionaries that are entirely focused with bring a true gospel to people in other parts of the world which is tremendous. They are not caught all up in the North American brand of Christianity Yes! Unfortunately when I think of the church, right away I think of the church here in North America- and what the Lord has shown me about it's demise. But as the church as a whole, all over the world, there ARE many good things; many believers with a passion for the true gospel of Christ.We certainly should not be in denial of our (and I do mean each of us, me included- not everyone "out there") spiritual condition. I am always open to His chastening and refining."So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked-- I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent."He loves us and is calling His people back to Him- this is also so very good!

Yea and Amen to your entire post Brother Greg ... and in particular the following ...Quote;What also is good about the church is that many are realizing the awful condition of the church and are wanting to do something about it. Like at my church they are wanting to pray and to even have revival because people are leaving and everything is going downhill spiritually.What i think right about Christ corporate Church is that we keep on stickin and jabbin, upper cuttin and occasionally round housing, and even though at times we may seem to be in rope-a-dope mode, sustaining a conciderable body beating from our opponent enemy satan, we have Christ's assurance that we'll never lose our legs, our ability to dance, our ability to rebound, and most important our ability to knock satan out in the last round, for the gates of hell, no matter how batttered we might seem at present, will NEVER prevail against us!PS - Brother Greg i also read your testimony ... WE ALL owe our everything to our Lord God Father, Son and Holy Ghost for pulling our fat out of the fire don't we? ... Oh praise His most holy and miraculous name! ...

Brother Mike, You know i feel your pain (about the Church, not the closed door .... '0)But as of late the Holy Spirit has really been impressing on me this scripture ...Mark.11[15] And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;[16] And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.[17] And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.He did it once, and He's in the process of doing it again! ... Right now He's just coming thru the entrance of His Temple Church, and His remnant are announcing His presence because we see the "I have something against thee" expression on His face ... And so we're sounding the trumps! ... "Here comes Jesus! ... Here comes Jesus"! ... And rest assured that the curses, slinging, whipping and tossing of the undesirables from His Temple Church is about to occur ... His judgment begins with us first!Our Lord has shown me that our job is only to warn, and in love at that, never to curse, sling, whip or toss ... That's His job ... It's His job to back up our warning! ... It's our job to warn ... "Jesus is coming! ... Jesus is coming ... AGAIN"!

Yes, great topic. Good things said on here so far. I'll tell you what I've seen "right" or at least liked about the experience I've had with two kinds of churches - Presbyterian and Calvary Chapelian ([laughs] just kidding).One thing I really like about the couple Presbyterian churches I've had experience with is how involved they are in their communities. I think that's a very right focus. I mean, their churches are equipped with kitchens to feed the homeless and poor. Before our church started doing them, the Presbyterians held some cool Vacation Bible Schools. Where maybe some Calvary Chapels lack community involvement, thank God for the Presbyterians [laughs]!Now the experience I've had of Calvary Chapels (I work at and attend one) is that I think we're very open to the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit. I like that we don't have to stick to traditions or rituals if the Holy Spirit leads us to change our way of doing things to better minister to the body of Christ. Being always open and teachable as a personal Christian, and as the whole body of Christ, I think is a right thing.

There's plenty right with the church, though sometimes it seems that only a few pockets here and there are above the 50% line.Personally I love the church I attend (and indeed live at, as it is a house church). The leadership and most of the congregation (nearly all if one doesn't count a few of the kids that have gone wayward, which is a problem of another kind) is openly committed to living according to the Word of God. There's a very warm sense of community, we share our desires, dreams, joys, anguish, hopes, faith, etc... I would trust just about anyone here with my life, and gladly and eagerly serve any of them in anything compatible with the will of God, even unto death.Are there problems? Yep, but that's not the topic of this thread :)On a broader scale, there are quite a few churches in the U.S. as good or better than mine (by the grace of God). The Church is positively thriving in South America, Africa, China, and the Ukraine (to name but a few such areas); although they do have their own problems that we may not be accustomed to in the Western church. If and when outright persecution comes to the U.S., I think many of our problems will go out the back door with the goats that have been among us.

"TO WALK ON WATER THAT WE KNOW WE CAN'T SWIM WE'D BEST KEEP OUR FAITH FOCUSED SOLEY ON HIM"Thank you for the thread you posted to view. And I will remember this signature above. Mother has said to me many times... keep your eyes on God; not on man... hope to see many walking on that glorious water... that sea of glass John speaks of. Smile... Jesus is closer than we know.

Ok productofgrace,i thought i might be thru posting on this topic, but you've went and said someting so near and dear to my heart ...Quote;hope to see many walking on that glorious water... that sea of glass John speaks of. Smile... Jesus is closer than we know. See! ... that's what i'm talking about, keeping our mind staid in the heavenlies ... i've spoken to so many saints individually, and in groups, and i've asked them "how do you see heaven"? ... And it has occasionally saddened me to see/hear so many saints attempt a grasping of it's description ... So when a saint makes a statement such as yours regarding that "sea of glass" i'm so encouraged, for that says you've got a far greater vision of that far country, that place where Jesus has (right now at this very second) already has prepared for us, in that shining city, the New Jerusalem ... This is one of the reasons i prayed so hard about, and believe God gave me "The Called" ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=2289&forum=41&post_id=&refresh=GoBecause i know so many people, saved and unsaved, have no imaginings of the place (Heaven) that is the hope of we Christians, and i think that plays a major part in why even we, are so prone to attempting to pacify ourselves with the rotten, corruptible, (especially) materialistic things of this world ...Eph.2[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:i have an imagination, vision of heaven, that blows my own small mind right now, and know for a fact that when i get there, if Jesus HImself don't call me to attention, i'll be in a Holy Ghost shout for at least 1,000 earth years ...Saints ... my beloved brothers and sisters in Christ ... we've got to get our heads more into the heavenlies ... and we've got to encourage one another to do so ... for Christ Kingdom, other than our spreading His Gospel to the harvesting of the remaining of His called from this earth, is no part of this world ... In Spirit we are already sitting in heavenly places ... somehow i totally believe God will bring that to our fore of His Bride in these last days ... Amen

In comming to this site, I'm constantly reminded of God's statement to Elijah, regarding those that hadn't bowed their knee to Baal.Here in Australia, particularly (hey, it's where I live) my wife and I are seeing an increasing sense of need to find the reality of truth, in the Word. People are begining to search out their own answers, rather than simply chewing on what is being presented from the pulpit.With this is coming the realisation that the problem isn't so much in the mouth of the preacher, as it is with the ear of the hearer. I sense in my spirit birthpangs of revival as I have never before sensed, as people begin to work out their own salvation, with fear and trembling.The only trajic thing is that many feel that their the only one's doing it. That their the only one's seeing the problems. Yet when they finally get the courage to discuss their fears, they discover that they're not alone.This may not seem like a compliment, but what would you rather. A happy-clappy "bless-me" club, or an emerging corps of seasoned warriors, who have had to contend for their faith.Could this be the begining of the end of the spiritual naivety that characterised the past few decades? That's what I see in the keystrokes of all who come here, also. And I believe it pleases God to see it.

Brother Aaron wrote;Quote;Could this be the begining of the end of the spiritual naivety that characterised the past few decades? That's what I see in the keystrokes of all who come here, also. And I believe it pleases God to see it.Amen brother! ... i believe it pleases Him also!

Grace and Peace --As others have already pointed out, it does seem like the path of least resistance to point out what is wrong with the church, rather than looking for what is right.But, therein lies the real issue. There is something desperately wrong when we have to exert ourselves more to locate the good than to observe the bad.I once heard a wise man say, "You don't preach a Galatians sermon to a Corinthian church." If you'll remember, the Galatian church was the one that had gone headlong into legalism. So, Paul preached to them the message of grace. By contrast, the Corinthian church had serious moral issues. Consequently, Paul preached to them a strong rebuke.We are living in very Corinthian days...days of unchecked and unchallenged sin and carnality in our churches. And all under the justification of "God's grace."We are not merely being petty here. For the most part, I am persuaded that we "complainers" are well intentioned -- not to mention correct. We are jealous for the glory of God in the church. We are also concerned that believers get all that is in Jesus, for this is our life.When the church forgets consecration, holiness, and service, it misrepresents God and it fails to offer the FULLNESS of Christ to those unbelievers who need to see a better representation, and even to those lambs who already believe. This is a tragedy.While many characterize all the "hard-noses" around here as critical and condemning, I think they probably have more of a grasp on love than anyone else. Their complaints rise like smoke from the fire of their love for God, love for the church, and love for their fellow man.Blessings,Jason