What is the proper relationship between “victory” and “sin” ?

Looking for some good analogies and/or illustrations (sermons maybe?) for explaining the relationship between “victory” and “sin”. There are a lot of confusing and complicated teachings on this subject but I believe it can be presented in a much less convoluted way.

Some say it is by having pure intentions (heart purity). They may still sin, but their intentions are pure.

Some say that victory is imputed to us through Christ Jesus. We still sin, but God sees Jesus when He looks at us.

Some say you must be perfect and NOT sin…AT ALL. Sinners go to hell and you must not be a “true” Christian if you still sin.

Others say they sin in thought, word, or deed every day.

And others offer parts from all the above…and beyond.

What I’m attempting to get at in this thread is a clarification of the over lapping ideas and terms that are involved in the relationship between victory and sin. Can there be sin and victory at the same time? Can one be a saint and a sinner simultaneously?

[b]Article 23 (Justification) of the Belgic Confession: [/b][i]We believe that our salvation consists in the remission of our sins for Jesus Christ's sake, and that therein our righteousness before God is implied: as David and Paul teach us, declaring this to be the happiness of man, that God imputes righteousness to him without works. And the same apostle saith, that we are justified freely by his grace, through the redemption which is in Jesus Christ. And therefore we always hold fast this foundation, ascribing all the glory to God, humbling ourselves before him, and acknowledging ourselves to be such as we really are, without presuming to trust in any thing in ourselves, or in any merit of ours, relying and resting upon the obedience of Christ crucified alone, which becomes ours, when we believe in him. This is sufficient to cover our iniquities, and to give us confidence in approaching to God; freeing the conscience of fear, terror and dread, without following the example of our first father, Adam, who, trembling, attempted to cover himself with fig-leaves. And verily if we should appear before God, relying on ourselves, or on any other creature, though ever so little, we should, alas! be consumed. And therefore every one must pray with David: O Lord, enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. [/i]

[b]Article 24 (Of Good Works) of the Belgic Confession:[/b] [i]We believe that this true faith being wrought in man by the hearing of the Word of God, and the operation of the Holy Ghost, doth regenerate and make him a new man, causing him to live a new life, and freeing him from the bondage of sin. Therefore it is so far from being true, that this justifying faith makes men remiss in a pious and holy life, that on the contrary without it they would never do anything out of love to God, but only out of self-love or fear of damnation. Therefore it is impossible that this holy faith can be unfruitful in man: for we do not speak of a vain faith, but of such a faith, which is called in Scripture, a faith that worketh by love, which excites man to the practice of those works, which God has commanded in his Word. Which works, as they proceed from the good root of faith, are good and acceptable in the sight of God, forasmuch as they are all sanctified by his grace: howbeit they are of no account towards our justification. For it is by faith in Christ that we are justified, even before we do good works; otherwise they could not be good works, any more than the fruit of a tree can be good, before the tree itself is good. Therefore we do good works, but not to merit by them, (for what can they merit?) nay, we are beholden to God for the good works we do, and not he to us, since it is he that worketh in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Let us therefore attend to what is written: when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, we are unprofitable servants; we have done that which was our duty to do. In the meantime, we do not deny that God rewards our good works, but it is through his grace that he crowns his gifts. Moreover, though we do good works, we do not found our salvation upon them; for we do no work but what is polluted by our flesh, and also punishable; and although we could perform such works, still the remembrance of one sin is sufficient to make God reject them. Thus then we would always be in doubt, tossed to and fro without any certainty, and our poor consciences continually vexed, if they relied not on the merits of the suffering and death of our Savior.[/i]

Are these helpful?

[b]All sin is:[/b]
Whatever is not of faith (when able to have faith) is sin. Romans 14:23

Knowingly transgressing the law is sin. 1John 3:4

Knowing to do good and not doing it is sin (when able to do the good). James 4:17

All unrighteousness is sin. 1John 5:17

There is another concept of sin which is spoken of as in Romans 7; this is the unlawful desires which are in the flesh (Romans 7:23,8:3b) To have sympathy for these unlawful of the flesh leads to temptaion, which leads to sin.

Therefore, sin is ALWAYS an intentional act of the will!

tjservant wrote:

Some say it is by having pure intentions (heart purity). They may still sin, but their intentions are pure.

Some say that victory is imputed to us through Christ Jesus. We still sin, but God sees Jesus when He looks at us.

Some say you must be perfect and NOT sin…AT ALL. Sinners go to hell and you must not be a “true” Christian if you still sin.

If we sin, we MUST repent, otherwise he can not be forgiven.(Matthew 18:23-35, John 15:8)
The one being atoned for must change in order for him to be forgiven. He must first meet the set conditions in order for the atonement to be applied for the forgiveness; these requirements (or “set conditions”) are faith in what Christ has said & done and repentance to prove the faith to be real and genuine. This proves that the one being atoned for understands the true value of the one who is forgiving and wat HE did to forgive, and also that he can not take this whole thing lightly.

Others say they sin in thought, word, or deed every day.

What I’m attempting to get at in this thread is a clarification of the over lapping ideas and terms that are involved in the relationship between victory and sin.

If we die in a sin which we haven't repented of, or one that could not be forgiven because we did not repent of:
[b]Heb 10:31[/b] [color=990000]It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.[/color]

Can there be sin and victory at the same time?

Can one be a saint and a sinner simultaneously?

Thanks Taylor. I hope to find time to read more of the historic confessions. Any suggestions?

Thanks for taking the time to reply Logic.

The London Baptist Confession of 1689 and the Westminster Confession of 1646 are basically the same confession, except the London Confession is Baptist and the Westminster is Presbyterian. The wording in most of the articles is the exact same except for those sections.

The Belgic Confession is also really good.

I would suggest reading London/Westminer and Belgic, as well as the Heidelberg Catechism and the Shorter Catechism (Presbyterian)/Keach's Catechism (Baptist).

Reading through these has been one of the most helpful things in building up a solid foundation of good doctrine.

If I could take only one book besides the Bible with me to an island, it would be the London Baptist Confession.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

I suggest you study carefully 1 John. Read it through prayerfully several times. Then read the book of James and then read 1 John again. These words are authoritative, inspired by the Holy Spirit. You can never go wrong in making these words your own.

About sin: James 2:10 informs us that if we are guilty of one sin, we are guilty of all. Have you ever noticed that when a person [apparently] sins in one thing, that if you keep watching other sins will soon become apparent? It never fails. Sobering. Some people will label some acts sins and others will disagree. To a keen observer it will soon become obvious what is sin or not. The entire family of sin or righteousness will live there in that body.

Now go back and read 1 John and then James. This is meat, not milk.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

TaylorOtwell wrote:
The London Baptist Confession of 1689 and the Westminster Confession of 1646 are basically the same confession, except the London Confession is Baptist and the Westminster is Presbyterian. The wording in most of the articles is the exact same except for those sections.

The Belgic Confession is also really good.

I would suggest reading London/Westminer and Belgic, as well as the Heidelberg Catechism and the Shorter Catechism (Presbyterian)/Keach's Catechism (Baptist).

Reading through these has been one of the most helpful things in building up a solid foundation of good doctrine.

If I could take only one book besides the Bible with me to an island, it would be the London Baptist Confession.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

As I re-read your original reply containing the excerpts from the Belgic Confession, it really struck me just how well these confessional statements are articulated. I guess that is why they have stood the test of time. I am new to the study of confessions. I will definitely be putting forth an effort to learn more about them and their part in church history. Thanks again for your reply. I never would have thought of looking there.

Wonderful song Natan, thank you for posting it.

ginnyrose wrote:
I suggest you study carefully 1 John. Read it through prayerfully several times. Then read the book of James and then read 1 John again. These words are authoritative, inspired by the Holy Spirit. You can never go wrong in making these words your own.

About sin: James 2:10 informs us that if we are guilty of one sin, we are guilty of all. Have you ever noticed that when a person [apparently] sins in one thing, that if you keep watching other sins will soon become apparent? It never fails. Sobering. Some people will label some acts sins and others will disagree. To a keen observer it will soon become obvious what is sin or not. The entire family of sin or righteousness will live there in that body.

Now go back and read 1 John and then James. This is meat, not milk.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Thanks for your insights ginnyrose. I will be taking your advice as well.

Here is a link to an audio teaching that may help.

http://www.awmi.net/extra/audio/e11