Can you lose your salvation?
If you say yes to that question, how can you say you are trusting in Christ alone for salvation?
Are you not therefore trusting in your good works to secure your salvation?
How can you be saved believing and trusting in that?
Can you lose your mariage (divorce)?repentcanada wrote:
can you lose your salvation?if you say yes to that question, how can you say you are trusting in Christ alone for salvation?
are you not therefore trusting in your good works to secure your salvation?
how can you be saved believing and trusting in that?
If you say yes to that question, how can you say you are trusting in true Love alone for your relationship?
Are you not therefore trusting in your proof of your love for your wife (works) to secure your mariage?
How can you be maried believing and trusting in that?
Actually, yes would be most people's answer not because of the answers you've supplied but because they see themselves as unfit to begin with. It wouldn't be a question of works or maintaining their salvation, it would be simply "I am not worthy" and if any of these should slip up in anyway shape or form the thought of losing their salvation is of paramount concern. Many don't know what Jesus did on the cross. I know way too many Christians who think this way. Most of the damage has been done by preachers who kept drilling it into people that they "are not worthy". So they have a "I am not worthy" complex. Terrible bondage to be in of always wondering if your saved or not.
Logic I believe you are being illogical. Marriage and salvation are completely different.
Jesus Christ said in John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
He said I have everlasting life. To believe that I will not inherit that one day is saying that Christ lied.
The reason I posted this is because of the debate over eternal security. If someone believes you can lose your salvation, how can they themselves be saved? How can they say they believe in Christ?
It's a simple thought, but it has radical implications.
Look - i know this is sermon index with the sermons of many who believe that people who have been born again can lose their salvation (they though themselves believe THEY will never lose THEIRS - isn't that believing in their own works?), but I wish to question that and believe that is a heretical belief.
Gosh brother. You seem to have a very angry tone in your rather loaded line of questioning. Perhaps I should question your salvation in the same manner you question the salvation of those who believe other than you do? When one possess Biblical saving faith, one has come to an end of self. Have you truly done such? Perhaps you have, but it seems your old self is ruling here on the boards.
Just a brotherly observation.
It is VERY logical:repentcanada wrote:
Logic I believe you are being illogical. Marriage and salvation are completely different.
The atonement does not save anyone. Jesus is our salvation, our relationship with Him is what saves us; what HE did (atone for our sins) only makes it posible for us to have this "saving" relationship with the Father through His son (John 17:3).
What is everlasting life?He said I have everlasting life. To believe that I will not inherit that one day is saying that Christ lied.
If one walks away from HIM (apostatize), he will not have eternal life.
Strongs Greek #647:
αποστάσιον = apostasion = divorcement
We get the word "apostasy" from this word.
Because salvation is a relationship between two people, God and you/me.The reason I posted this is because of the debate over eternal security. If someone believes you can lose your salvation, how can they themselves be saved? How can they say they believe in Christ?
Fact is, many people have trusted Christ unto salvation, but after a while, departed from the faith because of offence, damnable herasy...etc...
Faith w/out works (fruit) is dead!Look - i know this is sermon index with the sermons of many who believe that people who have been born again can lose their salvation (they though themselves believe THEY will never lose THEIRS - isn't that believing in their own works?),
John 15:2-7
It is not a a heretical belief if you understand what salvation truly is.but I wish to question that and believe that is a heretical belief.
LOL - not angry at all and I am not even sure where you get that "discernment" from. My response had no capital letters or exclamation marks. Just asking a few simple questions here on SI that I believe are beneficial.
I am not acting in my old man here. And as well I want to say this - this is the first post I have started in a long time of any real doctrinal stance. If this is something that makes people angry, I will take that in consideration and bow out of writing anything on any serious level.
Logical - how can any believer be sure of their salvation then? How can any of us be sure we are born again?
I have witnessed others get railroaded from here on SI, and hope this isn't going to be the case with myself.
ps - when I wrote "heretical belief" I do not mean "lost" or "damned". I may have used the wrong choice of words, and rather than go back and delete my previous words I will say this.
This argument usually boils down to one side saying someone can lose their salvation if they return to and continue in willful sin and the other side saying that the person was never truly saved in the first place. Personally I am comfortable with either position. The third position is when the eternal security position degenerates into a "greasy grace" or "grace as a license to sin" position which states that someone can live in continual willful sin and still be saved because at one time they were saved and can not lose their salvation no matter what they do. This is the position that I have a problem with and believe is un-scriptural and gives people a false sense of security.
Here are a few scriptures for your consideration that talk about enduring to the end and about people who turn back to willful sin.
1.\tMatthew 10:22 - All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
2.\tMatthew 24:9-13 - "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved."
3.\tRomans 11:20-22 - But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
4.\t1 Corinthians 9:27 - No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
5.\t1 Timothy 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
6.\tHebrews 3:12-14 - See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called "Today," so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
7.\t2 Peter 2:20-22 - If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
8.\t2 Peter 3:17 - Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
9.\tRevelation 3:5 - He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
10. Jud 1:3-6 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. (4) For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. (5) Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. (6) And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
11. Matthew 7:19-23 - "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'”
12. Heb 10:26-31 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, (27) but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (28) Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. (29) How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? (30) For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." (31) It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
God bless,
Patrick
www.jonahproject.org
I would add being decieved into d@mnable herasy.Christisking wrote:
This argument usually boils down to one side saying someone can lose their salvation if they return to and continue in willful sin and the other side saying that the person was never truly saved in the first place.
This argument usually boils down to one side saying someone can lose their salvation if they return to and continue in willful sin and the other side saying that the person was never truly saved in the first place. Personally I am comfortable with either position. The third position is when the eternal security position degenerates into a "greasy grace" or "grace as a license to sin" position which states that someone can live in continual willful sin and still be saved because at one time they were saved and can not lose their salvation no matter what they do. This is the position that I have a problem with and believe is un-scriptural and gives people a false sense of security.
I think this is a reasonable summary of things. I think our example of faith is clearly Abraham. our Lord pretty much summarizes it I think;
[color=000066]They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, [u]If[u]ye would do the works of Abraham
that is exactly the same argument i have brought up to those who believe you can lose your salvation by their works or their continued sin, their lack of works. Then it would be a works salvation which the Bible teaches will not get you saved.It is the grace of God which gives you faith to trust in his son, your faith or what i like to say God given faith. It is by nothing we do, the only thing it is because of Gods grace by faith. The only way if it was possible for you to lose your salvation is if you could lose your faith in christ, but works have nothing to do with it at all, because they our all abominable already. You made a great point, don't let anyone tell you different brother, seriously that is truth, keep it up. I have brought this before too others and what they our doing is turning this into their owns works salvation, not faith. And also a true born again believer will not want to sin or think it is a license to sin because God has changed his desires, that is huge misunderstanding of conversion and our new nature. God bless you.
that is exactly the same argument i have brought up to those who believe you can lose your salvation by their works or their continued sin, their lack of works. Then it would be a works salvation which the Bible teaches will not get you saved.It is the grace of God which gives you faith to trust in his son, your faith or what i like to say God given faith. It is by nothing we do, the only thing it is because of Gods grace by faith. The only way if it was possible for you to lose your salvation is if you could lose your faith in christ, but works have nothing to do with it at all, because they our all abominable already. You made a great point, don't let anyone tell you different brother, seriously that is truth, keep it up. I have brought this before too others and what they our doing is turning this into their owns works salvation, not faith. And also a true born again believer will not want to sin or think it is a license to sin because God has changed his desires, that is huge misunderstanding of conversion and our new nature. God bless you.
Just curious - how do you justify your statements against the following scripture and how do you interpret the following scripture. I am not saying you are wrong nor suggesting we can work our way to salvation and heaven just giving you some scripture to think about and chew on in light of you statement.
James 2:21,24-25
(21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
[b](24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
(25) Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
here it is in context
Jas 2:17-26 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (18) But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.(19) You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! (20) But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? (22) Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? (23) And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. (24) You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. (25) Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? (26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
God bless,
Patrick
www.jonahproject.org
I am 100% Sure i am Saved
cos i am 100% sure that what my Lord Jesus did for me.
My Hope and my Joy is there and there alone.
Thank you Lord i am 100% saved.
Oh what a joy it is to be in Christ and Christ be in me oh prise the name of Jesus there is no other name that will make you 100% SURE.
Bless you all.
Just my two cents: I'm 100% sure I'm saved, and I'm 100% sure that salvation is by grace through faith in the obedience of the One, Jesus Christ, in His death and resurrection. I'm also 100% sure that should this faith of mine (which really isn't mine, but His), be no more, then I'm 100% sure I would go to hell.
I believe like any good Calvinist, that enduring and persevering faith is a requirement of eternal life. Where I differ with my Calvinist brothers is the belief that this is an automatic thing that will occur. I believe according to Philippians, that He who began a good work in me will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus. But if you look at the verse before that, Paul talks about that in the context of us continuing on in the faith by which we stand.
I believe it's God's will for my life to endure until the end, and that He will keep me by His power by faith. But for some reason should I choose to depart from the faith, while He exhorts me not to depart, He will not stop me from doing such.
I've personally known several people who were clearly saved, and who clearly bore the fruit of salvation and had the witness of the Holy Spirit decide to do this very thing. They were not false converts. Perhaps some of them will come back around, and my Calvinist brother's five point belief system will be vindicated. But should they not, I will not say they were false converts because they didn't endure until the end.
If you are not allowed to go by genuine discernment of their fruits to tell if others are really saved, then one is incapable of discerning their own personal salvation by the discernment of one's own fruit. Then one comes to the place of the Dutch Reformed, who teach that it's not really possible to know if one is really saved except by one's enduring and persevering faith, which one won't know until one's death bed.
My personal testimony is that I've seen people full of faith and full of the fruit of the Spirit fall away from the faith. If you believe in cheap grace, you'll say that person is going to heaven just the same. But such is clearly doctrinal error and has nothing to do with Biblical faith or salvation or grace.
Just adding two more cents.
It seems rather precarious…to hope not to make the wrong choice someday.
John 15:16 (ESV) You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide…
1 John 2:19 (ESV) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
Jude 1:24 (ESV) Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy.
God's power is able to keep the believer from falling away. It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.
Amen :-)
Christisking wrote:
"James 2:21,24-25
(21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?"
Abraham offered Isaac by faith as well. He heard God's command to do this first, then acted on faith that God knew what He was doing. Rarely would anyone atttempt to kill their first born unless they have faith in the one who told them to do so. But I understand the dilemma here with what James says about works. I wonder if James means justified in terms of being a child of God or justified in receiving his reward of 'all nations being blessed through him.' That's a half hearted opinion... because I'm not totally sure of all that myself. Blessings.
All of Romans 4 talks about Abraham justified by faith. This is why Jesus told the Pharisees that they were not children of Abraham but children of the devil. They would not receive the Messiah in faith as Abraham received the commands of the Father in faith. The Pharisees still wanted to earn their way to heaven and would just have the Messiah destroy all their enemies instead of die for their sins.
Here are scriptures mentioning Abraham and faith. Peace to you.
Romans 4:12
And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
Romans 4:13
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
Romans 4:16
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
Galatians 3:8
The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."
Galatians 3:9
So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
I do believe that faith comes before works. But our works aren't for our own salvation but as obedient children to do the work of the Lord for His glory. I take Paul to mean in one of the scriptures that justification by faith allows us to let go of our own works for our own salvation... which allows us now to move forward in bearing fruit in the Spirit for the glory of God and not to boast in our own fleshly works as to be recognized in a more selfish, pretentious, manner.
This caught my eye.Christisking wrote:
...states that someone can live in continual willful sin...
Is this in contrast to continusl unwillful sin?
I don't get it.
[b]John 15:2[b]:3[b]:4
[b]Verse Two:
It can't mean that he isn't abiding in HIM.
It means that bearing fruit is a choice on our part to obediance.
If one abides in HIM but doesnot choose to bear fruit (works), then he is toast.
[b]Verse Four:
Therefore, there are two things which we must to on our part of this relationship with the Father through Christ (which is eternal life John 17:3); we must choose to have works (obey), and choose to remain in Him.
If we do not choose to have fruit (works) it is proof that you are not choosing to believe (have faith) in Him, therefore,. HE will "take you away" from the Vine.
If we do not choose to abide in Him, you can not have the good fruit which is eternal in value.
Logic
what does bearing fruit(works) mean in a believers life?
rdg
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