The High Price of Sin

There is something to be learned in every line and every word of the Word of God. For example, many people do not like to read the genealogical records, especially those that are somewhat detailed, like in the first several chapters of the Chronicles, but it is there, when you read for just a little while you begin to see with increasing sorrow, how everlasting the effects of sin are. You see how one decision by one man or one woman so affects all future generations. You see that even though there may be [b]forgiveness[/b] for sin, the [b]consequences of sin[/b] do not cease at all, but indeed go on [b]for eternity[/b]. You see in such stark contrast the vast difference between those who chose the fear and the obedience of God rather than the expediency or the conveniences or the pleasures of sin for the moment. Only God knows how horrible sin really is, but I can tell you that if you will look with an open heart and spiritual conscience at those names and those actions that are mentioned, and do just a little bit of research as to the descendants, you will get a new sense of the [i]enormity of sin. [/i]

I say especially to young people that regardless of how difficult it may be to go through those lists and to try to pronounce them and try to remember where this one or that one fits in the overall record of Israel, it is an exercise with much profit, because you will see in it just how important and integral your life is in the history of mankind. Every one of us has a part. And our every decision is not just a decision that affects us alone, but all those around us and every future generation that comes behind us. No wonder the prophets and men and women of God could later lament in the times of captivity their awful sins that had brought such tragedies upon themselves… but even that weeping and those confessions do not cover it all.

Just one look at the state of Israel today and the horrors that they are enduring and have yet to endure… “His blood be upon us and upon our children”… and then a look at the awful ignorance and arrogance of our forefathers, the Gentiles that failed so miserably to go to the Jew first, not just with the [i]message[/i] of Christ in word, but the [i]message lived out[/i]… what horrible consequences of sin.

I was writing the above words from my morning devotion time, when I received an email from a nephew of a site that he had found that had the genealogy of our own family... ironic? No, a confirmation of the message God was showing me! A message to make comprehend a little better the heart of God.

We could learn the same as above just from studying any of our genealogies, knowing first hand some of the actions of those involved.

God help us to be broken, broken over the tragedies of sin around us so that we will know how to pray with God's heart regarding them.

Clint

Good Morning Clint,

Your post is something I will be considering for a very long time. I believe I will save it and put it in a folder to read ever so often and keep it in mind. I especially liked this part

even though there may be forgiveness for sin, the consequences of sin do not cease at all

It is so true. I never actually sat and considered it in that way but it is possible to see this in close family history. Sadly.

With the Lord's return so close, I can almost hear His step on the walkway, I am searching His word daily. I hope you have a very nice day, you certainly started mine out good. :-)

White Stone

Excellent, quality post dear brother. It's so very true.

Clint,

You are dealing with an issue described as generational sins. Personally, I have a problem with it. On the one hand one can easily see how certain sins follow generations. But what is one to do with a scripture like Ezekiel 18:20? read also Ezekiel 18:1-19. These same sentiments are repeated in Jeremiah 31:29-34.

Consequences of sins...all have sinned and the results of sins always effects others, including those close to you. People can get scarred emotionally because of sins committed by loved ones...yet Jesus came to redeem us, did he not?

Brother, you can have me go in circles about this issue: on the one hand I would agree, then on the other hand I would have to argue against it because Jesus came to free us from the bondage of sin.

What say?

On another note, about studying the genealogy in the OT. I, too, have found lots of inspiration in it. It is fun to check out the family connections of people. It used to bug me how Abner was so disrespectful to King David: he treated him like an annoying brat. Ever noticed that relationship? I will give you a clue: check out the genealogy...ah - some things never change!

Anyhow, back to the subject you wrote about...what say about my question?

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Thank you White Stone and Paul.

Ginny: You are dealing with an issue described as generational sins.

Actually I am not talking about generational sin at all, or at least I did not have that in mind. I am simply talking about the consequences of personal sins upon others… and certainly it does affect generations, towns, communities, churches, neighbors, families, and on and on for eternity…

You have no argument with me regarding the fact that we are redeemed from sin, and that Jesus came to free us from the bondage of sin. And in fact I have argued the point against us being damned for Adam’s sin, because of what the scriptures teach in 2 Chronicles 25 and those many scriptures in Ezekiel that you pointed out. We have enough sins of our own to damn us without having to add our forefather's (not looking for an argument on that score for sure), but on the other hand what I was so moved by in my devotion this morning is the fact that regardless of forgiveness and redemption and even our eternal home in heaven, the consequences of sin are so very devastating. Marital choices for instance in the genealogies, or even in our own families… there may indeed be individuals saved and redeemed, but look at the hundreds and thousands that are damned because of the choices of the parents… for example on the thread you started regarding VBS. There will be so many thousands that will never hear the gospel or more importantly will never see it "fleshed out", because of the choices made by parents. It is certainly not because they cannot be saved and redeemed and rescued, it is just the fact that their chances have been greatly hindered as a consequence of sins from previous generations… and you could follow the trail on back. There are definitely eternal consequences to sin “For none of us lives to himself, and on man dies to himself”. Look at the eternal consequences of Jeroboam's sin and his fear of losing power, the influence, the idolatry. I know that individuals make choices and each of us will give account for our choices but our choices have consequences for far more people than simply ourselves. God alone knows the ramifications of every sin. And that is my point... when we begin to get a glimpse of how horrible sin is in its effect in so many multiple ways, then brokenness is inevitable.

Look at the eternal consequences of Manasseh’s sins. Josiah is an amazing example of the grace of God, of the power of redemption, and of total dedication to the will of God, but even for all of this and the things that were accomplished in his lifetime, the consequences of Manasseh’s sins were so tragic that God alone knows how far reaching they were. It is not simply a matter of redemption and freedom from sin.
I thank God for my personal redemption, but in my own life, I could give you a most painful example, of the consequences of sins as a prodigal son, as I am sure that many others could. I still got my ring, still had the celebration, came home expecting to be a hired servant but instead became a love slave… But it is not just emotional scars upon loved ones, but eternal consequences were set in motion...

Is that clearer or even what you are asking?

I do so appreciate your posts, so please ask on, or correct me if I am mistaken.

Clint

SO TRUE! SO TRUE!

How many times have I heard the testimonies . . . on http://www.unshackled.org/listen_home.html http://www.vidaduratv.com/ and MANY that I've heard in person of people who spent many years of their lives HARDENED against God because of the sins and neglect of their parents. Those are just the "rescue" stories with a happy ending. How many millions of others never have the happy ending of being delivered from sin?

Many years ago, I heard a preacher use this illustration, and I looked it up on the internet:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15623/15623.txt

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/15623

Someone did a detailed study of Jonathan Edward's descendants vs those of Max Jukes. The difference is amazing! The ripple-effect of sin is truly eternal! The ripple-effect of the fear of the Lord is also eternal!

Look at where we are as a nation with just a few generations of wickedness! O Lord help us, as Brother Clint said:

God help us to be broken, broken over the tragedies of sin around us so that we will know how to pray with God's heart regarding them.

-Brother Michael

Clint,

Reckon, I got a one track mind. :-(

Yes, I agree with your post, all of it. It is Biblical as far as I can discern. (And it is nice to see someone else appreciate Biblical genealogy!)

The bottom line is that people make choices and they have far-ranging consequences, whether it be good or bad. And why is it that the bad are so glaringly obvious?

but eternal consequences were set in motion...

I have no further to look then see this in action in my own family tree. ( A prodigal marries, divorces, remarries, has children who follow the same path: divorces, children and finally no marriages at all....and eventually he comes to his senses and repents, leaves a woman, grandchildren not interested in things of God...) My cousin is right on target when he said "it seems rather absurd that how one lives in those 70 years will determine how you will live millions of years (or eternity) after death." Yes, when one considers the options of "millions of years vs a tiny moment, why do we find it so hard to resist temptation?

Good post, brother.

ginnyrose

Thank you Brother Michael for the link, it illustrates very well what I was trying to say.

Thank you Ginny for your gracious words.

I have looked into your reference to Abner and am not sure that I have the answer to the riddle. I know that he was very closely related to Saul (first cousin?) but other than that I don't really know... Please elaborate.

Clint

Since writing on this subject as I was praying and preparing for this Sunday, I felt I should add another comment.

Most of us have read the stories of how George Whitefield would say to sinners in the audience something to this effect “if you cannot weep for your sins, then George Whitefield will weep for you”, and he would begin to sob almost uncontrollably, not just for them as sinners and the hell that they were headed for but for the hardheartedness and coldness in the face of the Almighty God who died for them for which they had no sorrow or repentance and understanding of the enormity of their sins against so Holy a God.

I do not seek for controversy, and in fact despise all the unedifying arguments pitting one’s absolute assurance of correct doctrine against another with equal assurance that seems to go on [i]ad naseum.[/i] Not saying that there is not a necessity give and answer to any man asks us a reason of the hope that is in you (us) in meekness and fear..." But often the words of Job come to mind sometimes in reading the threads...
Job 6:25-26 ( NKJV )
How forceful are right words! But what does your arguing prove?
Do you intend to rebuke my words, And the speeches of a desperate one, which are as wind?
And this one:
Job 12:2-3 ( ESV )
“No doubt you are the people, and wisdom will die with you.
But I have understanding as well as you; I am not inferior to you. Who does not know such things as these?

We can be making our case, (and unfortunately I have been guilty and have had to duly repent and apologize) and still there are those bound by sin, and have tasted the bitter dregs of it, that could care less about who believes what, and have come to the same cynicism of Pilate,"what is truth" and even more so from watching the church like Pilate watched the Pharisees and Sadducees… they just want [i]to see[/i] if this thing works… is there freedom from this wretched slavery?

The one thing that I sincerely believe is missing now that was so prevalent during the times of awakening and revival, is the fact that these men were on the same page in their understanding of the sinfulness of sin. They were agreed on the awfulness of sin against the Holy God and the awfulness of hearts so hardened in sin that they were not broken by the fact that this great God that so loved us, that He gave His life blood to [i]save us from our sins[/i]. John Wesley and George Whitefield could and did both weep over the awfulness of the sin of rejection of the same Lord they served. There may have been diversity of understanding about sanctification, but agreement upon the need for it. There may have been diversity upon the implications of some of the words involved in salvation, but total agreement upon the necessity of salvation and the ability of Christ to save. And save He did, radically changing men and society. God forbid that we forget who and what the real enemy is. It is sin… sin… that is the enemy, rebellion against this Holy Lord God Almighty… going our own way, taking holy things into our own hands, touching with unsanctified hands that which does not pertain to us… taking lightly the eternal, eternal effects of what we so easily consider small things, small decisions… [b]Oh to see sin[/b] as awful as these dear brothers saw it. Brother Keith Daniel said it and I have to agree, until we have travailed in prayer like any one of these brothers whose doctrines we malign, until we have seen the ingathering of souls into the kingdom of Christ as these have seen such as Moody and even Finney and so many other names that are bandied about… we had better put our hands upon our mouths, lest an angel record it.

May God help me to never lose sight of the awfulness of sin, lest I become its defender instead of its foe.

Clint

Clint,

I apologize...I was wrong....I meant to say Joab, not Abner...I thought I had finally got to the point where I would not get these fellows mixed up. I would confuse Abner with Joab...

I will tell you what I noticed ....It seemed to me that Joab was not all that respectful to King David. It is just little things here and there where I get this sense. Then I noticed that his mother is David's older sister which would make David his uncle. We know David was the youngest in the family....so, then there is a possibility that Joab could have been older then David - just guessing. If you recall, David did not enjoy the esteem by his brethren and it appears Joab may have shared this attitude as well. Now, does this not sound like modern family relationships?

My observations comes from reading the scriptures. I did not get this info from another book. You see, I am always interested in these Bible characters as people, individuals who lived as humans just like us; who had to deal with conflicts, trials, just like us...In reading these Bible stories I can easily see them being played out in my mind, fueled by the reports as recorded in the Scriptures.

Again, I am so sorry if I put you in undue trouble...{{SIGH}}... will try to be more careful in the future.

ginnyrose

… Oh to see sin as awful as these dear brothers saw it.

AMEN! AMEN! The way that they saw sin affected the way that they saw everything! "good ole boy sinners" that just need "a little change for the better" become in our sight "time bombs of God's wrath" who need to be snatched out of the fire!

I've been collecting hymn books from all kinds of churches for many years. Themes such as the GREATNESS and horribleness of sin were certainly reflected in the songs of that generation. One of my favorites is one that we sang in choir when I was young by Charles Wesley (copied below). Notice the DIFFERENCE in what that generation rejoiced about! Their greatest songs of awe inspired thankfulness and adoration didn't have anything to do with "feeling good" or "I'm barely hangin on, but I'm so glad that he gives me the strength to go on". . . or material blessings and so forth.

They saw their past sin and rebellion against God as SO GREAT that they LIVED in awe and shock that they had actually been granted a pardon from the most high courts of heaven!

AND CAN IT BE

And can it be that I should gain
An interest in the Savior’s blood?
Died He for me, who caused His pain—
For me, who Him to death pursued?
Amazing love! How can it be,
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
Amazing love! How can it be,
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?

’Tis mystery all: th’Immortal dies:
Who can explore His strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
To sound the depths of love divine.
’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore,
Let angel minds inquire no more.
’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore;
Let angel minds inquire no more.

He left His Father’s throne above
So free, so infinite His grace—
Emptied Himself of all but love,
And bled for Adam’s helpless race:
’Tis mercy all, immense and free,
For O my God, it found out me!
’Tis mercy all, immense and free,
For O my God, it found out me!

Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.

Still the small inward voice I hear,
That whispers all my sins forgiven;
Still the atoning blood is near,
That quenched the wrath of hostile Heaven.
I feel the life His wounds impart;
I feel the Savior in my heart.
I feel the life His wounds impart;
I feel the Savior in my heart.

No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in Him, is mine;
Alive in Him, my living Head,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.
Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.

.Charles Wesley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGeG5yRr5fM

Amen!

Was it not D.L. Moody who saw the value of a song? He said that a song can minister more then a sermon? So he hired Sankay to be his song leader who also wrote a lot of songs.

I recall quite well the song "I Dreamed that the Great Judgement morning".. we sang it at church one evening, four of us ladies. That song moved my husband's nephew so much that he surrendered to the LORD later that night at his home.

Here are the lyrics:

I DREAMED THAT THE GREAT JUDGMENT MORNING

I dreamed that the great judgment morning
Had dawned, and the trumpet had blown;
I dreamed that the nations had gathered
To judgment before the white throne;
From the throne came a bright shining angel,
And he stood on the land and the sea,
And he swore with his hand raised to Heaven,
That time was no longer to be.

Refrain

And O, what a weeping and wailing,
As the lost were told of their fate;
They cried for the rocks and the mountains,
They prayed, but their prayer was too late.

The rich man was there, but his money
Had melted and vanished away;
A pauper he stood in the judgment,
His debts were too heavy to pay;
The great man was there, but his greatness,
When death came, was left far behind!
The angel that opened the records,
Not a trace of his greatness could find.

Refrain

The widow was there with the orphans,
God heard and remembered their cries;
No sorrow in Heaven forever,
God wiped all the tears from their eyes;
The gambler was there and the drunkard,
And the man that had sold them the drink,
With the people who gave him the license,
Together in hell they did sink.

Refrain

The moral man came to the judgment,
But self righteous rags would not do;
The men who had crucified Jesus
Had passed off as moral men, too;
The soul that had put off salvation,
“Not tonight; I’ll get saved by and by,
No time now to think of religion!”
At last they had found time to die.

Refrain

It can also be heard here:
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/i/d/idreamed.htm

This is a far cry from what is marketed today, is it not?

Have a blessed day!
ginnyrose

This is a far cry from what is marketed today, is it not?

YES IT IS! And Oh how much better off our generation would be today if messages such as these were heard more often. Marketing artists are obviously SO interested profits that they don't have enough conscience to face people with reality. "O, what a weeping and wailing" for such producers who make merchandise of the gospel and ignore the Biblical themes regarding the enormity of sin and its consequences.

Thanks for posting this song. I had heard bits and pieces of it but I hadn't seen the whole original message.

Sunday I gave an illustration to a group that had some unconverted listners. Trying to get them to think about and reason in their minds about the enormity of sin, I said something like: "If you stole my cell-phone and I forgave you, that would be one thing . . . but if you killed my mother, and I forgave you, that would be another . . . our sins crucified Jesus, God's son, yet he offers forgiveness for it.

Another verse of an old, old song comes to mind showing the way that the past generations had a better understanding of the enormity of sin:

"My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought!
My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more,
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!"

Spafford wrote those words soon after "all four of Spaf­ford’s daugh­ters died in a col­li­sion with an­o­ther ship"

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/i/t/i/itiswell.htm

The fact that the GREAT debt for his sins had been paid so overshadowed the great tragedies that he had faced in life! The joy of sins forgiven far outweighed the greatness of many horrible earthly tragedies!

Having an understanding of the enormity of sin is the only foundation for true peace of mind!

Thank you both Ginny and Michael for those reminders in those songs. The one that Ginny referred to was the song that a group called "Judgment Morning Ministries" sung during a scene in their drama about judgment morning several years ago, and I still remember it well.

The thoughts that started this thread, I could not get away from and so Sunday morning it became the point of departure for my message "The Exceeding Sinfulness of Sin". Not the kind of Father's Day message that was expected, I am sure, but one that I believe God used for those there.

One reminder to them and us is this:

"Take your pride, your rebellion, your selfishness, and walk up to the feet of the very God of the Universe that loved you enough to come down, become a little child in a filthy manger, lay aside all the prerogatives of God and live in obedience to the Heavenly Father, dependent for every breath, for every morsel of food, for every instruction, and later for every miracle, upon the Holy Spirit of God just as we are to be… but see Him with a face so marred that it looks inhuman, with blotches of beard plucked out and bleeding, with holes oozing blood down the sides of that face and with hair matted and caked with blood, with gashes from His head to His feet, feet punctured with spikes, hands hanging on nails with which He pulls up and down for every breath, but with the power to call upon His Father for any one (just one)of the thousands and thousands of angels that could have changed the whole scene from mercy to woeful judgment in an instant, and see Him surrounded by jeering men and shrieking women mocking and laughing their empty and hollow and demonic laughs, telling Him to come down if He can, and we knowing full well that He can… and then tell Him to His battered and spit covered body and face, that you don’t give a flip about His love, and you couldn’t care less that He came down here, and tell Him how ungrateful you are, and how you intend to go on with business as usual, and are not the least bit afraid of any judgment, and do not intend to stop doing what you defiantly have done… tell Him to His face how proud and independent you are, and how you don’t need Him, His cross, His love… tell Him… because that is precisely what sin is. That is the exceeding sinfulness of sin. Sin is in the face of Christ who died to pay for all the crimes against the Holy Creator in whose hands are our every breath."

What fools sin makes of men... name any crime, any disease, any abuse, any deception, and sin is worse. Its damage goes on and on and on forever, but finally one day it will be quarantined forever... thank God. The parable of the unforgiving slave... after what we have been forgiven...and we would dare hold the trifles done against us in our hearts... woe, woe to those who insult the forgiveness of God in light of the sinfulness of their own sins by failing to freely forgive from the heart.
God had to confront my own heart with that reality a few years ago... and Oh what a freedom that has brought. But may I never forget, so that, like the woman with the alabaster box, I may continually fall at His feet melted with gratitude.

Clint

The one thing that I sincerely believe is missing now that was so prevalent during the times of awakening and revival, is the fact that these men were on the same page in their understanding of the sinfulness of sin. They were agreed on the awfulness of sin against the Holy God and the awfulness of hearts so hardened in sin that they were not broken by the fact that this great God that so loved us, that He gave His life blood to save us from our sins. John Wesley and George Whitefield could and did both weep over the awfulness of the sin of rejection of the same Lord they served. There may have been diversity of understanding about sanctification, but agreement upon the need for it. There may have been diversity upon the implications of some of the words involved in salvation, but total agreement upon the necessity of salvation and the ability of Christ to save.

How true. Thank you broclint

Much truth in this thread. The insightful comments about the genealogy records are priceless. Thank you for taking the time to post what the Lord is revealing to you. He definitely used you to speak to me.

Thank you TJ.

Both the threads recently [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=29275&forum=34&6]here[/url], the one posted by Greg, and the article that you posted by J. C. Ryle, [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16496&forum=36&17]this one[/url], the fact that was pointed out that Calvinists and Arminians alike at one time majored on majors, that is personal consecration, personal holiness.

And as I pointed out earlier in this thread, the area of agreement between Wesley and Whitefield, and so many more... was that genuine fear (in the right sense) of God, that awe of His holiness, and the sense of the exceeding sinfulness of sin... that overwhelming concern for daring not to offend this One who has so loved us... that sense of "how could I sin against such love"... rather than the "He loves me sooo much, let's see what He will let me by with..."

I do not know precisely how to put it into words... but somehow the insidious "dumbing down" of the awesome holiness of God, and the ever present fear of becoming "legalistic"... sort of like the ever present phrase so loved by the world "you can't judge", like the Sodomites threw out at Lot... somehow the awfulness of sin has just been so, so missing, and therefore the trembling repentance before the holy throne is also missing... those bitter days of such conviction that brought men and women like dear old John Bunyan through days and days of fear for their souls... but to such eternal gratitude when the burden of sin was finally rolled off their backs.

May God return us to that awareness so that we may praise Him as we ought for SO GREAT SALVATION!

Clint