A question about repentance and grace

Hi folks,

I have a question that's very serious for me. I can't ever seem to find the answer but maybe someone knows the answer.

The Bible says that we're by grace through faith and not of ourselves. When I read elsewhere in the Bible though, we're told to repent. For example, "...unless you repent, you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).

How is it that we must repent and yet we're saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves? It seems to me that if we're required to repent, then it isn't much of grace.

Another issue I'm having that is somewhat related is in 1st John.

I don't understand how it can say "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1 john 1:8) and at the same time also go on to say, "No one who is born of God practices sin..." 1 john 3:9.

I also don't understand why Scripture will use the word "practice." How many times can I sin and in how long of a period of time before I'm in the zone of "practicing a sin"?

I really want to take scripture in it's plain meaning but when I do, I run into these walls and I hate it.

If only I could believe I was going to heaven because I'm saved by grace through faith, I'd be so happy.

Thanks

great reply hhhmmm, i just read first john twice last week and from what i know is this when it says he who is born of god does not sin, it means in the greek language i believe that he who continues in sin as a habit or as a lifestyle. I would say practices could mean he who does as a lifestyle or sins for the enjoyment of it or he who loves to sin, If we lives as a lifestyle sinning on a continued basis without repentance without a desire to turn from it and do it without any godly sorrow then i guess he is saying you our not saved or born again and never have been. I take john not as an example of someone losing salvation but as evidence of a sheep and a goat. Practice sure sounds like sin as a lifestyle, to practice something, like i practice baseball to get better, its like you our trying and wanting to sin, so he might be saying that the born again believer does not practice sin at all, might fall but does not want to fall. If i confused you i am sorry but that is how i take it and how i have heard it defined.

Hi Paul,

(This post turned out to be longer than it felt when I was writing. Thanks for your patience.)

Your questions are all covered from a different angle, in Alan Martin's first Barnsdall Revival conference address, and he does quote from 1 John. But don't stop there! [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=18721]True Salvation: The Righteousness of God in man[/url].

I would say, though, that his masterful presentation is so rich, that it cannot be digested in one session. Listen to it and stop when you hear something you've not understood previously, just as you would when reading your Bible, and let God lead you in further Bible study around that key word or thought.

I'm trying to transcribe that message, and I've realised that because he is quoting from memory, he is transposing the order of some of the words. It is, though, the KJV rather than another translation which he is remembering.

You will find, therefore, that 'practises' sin is not KJV. (You might know that already.)

hmmhmm said

i encourage you to read and pray and ask God show you, he will when the time is right. Have an open heart and prayerfully and humbly come to the scriptures and God will show you

On your question about repentance, I know exactly what you mean, however, repentance is the essential response to [u]conviction of[/u] sin. If you are not sensing such conviction, you cannot honestly repent. But, you can [i]ask God for[/i] conviction of sin, and you do need to repent. You [u]need[/u] repentance to [u]work[/u] in you.

Basically, we all do what we want, until we submit ourselves to God's agenda, and this instinctive 'I do what I like' ('Ye are gods' John 10:34) will always be with us, unless we make daily choices to [i][b]desire[/b][/i] [u]His[/u] 'will' (desires) (Luke 22:15) above our own [u]and to do it[/u]. Do we desire to have Christ sitting at our table, supping with us? What could prevent [u]Him[/u] from so doing, except sin?

Repentance is a real spiritual event, through which God makes many other spiritual truths [i][b]work[/i][/b] in our lives in our personal experience, thus giving us a real testimony about Jesus Christ Himself.

Repentance is not a work. It is a response to the working of the Spirit of Truth in our lives. Also, it is God's most gentle way of separating us from our pride and hypocrisy. And, it is the dynamic through which we experience a sense of inclusion in the death which Christ died - His broken heart and His wounded side.

Please read these two short extracts from Oswald Chambers' My Utmost for His Highest, and ponder on the distinctions he makes between objective truth, and the apprehension / comprehension (or conscious experience of it) by the believer of that objective truth. (There is a world of difference between [i]seeing[/i] what he is getting at, and actually being one who can say 'this is my experience of God'.

[url=http://www.myutmost.org/10/1028.html]Justification by Faith[/url]

[url=http://www.myutmost.org/12/1228.html]Continuous Conversion[/url]

One of the ways you will know that you are on the right track, is when you find yourself recognising that other believers have been through what you have been through, and have come out of the experience with a knowledge of God like yours. You find yourself saying 'we know'. This is the witness of the Spirit of Truth, to which the scripture also attests.

Coming to terms with what it says about 'us', that we have to accept the sentence of death in ourselves (2 Cor 1:9), to experience Rom 6:4, is a very humbling experience, but, it is also very freeing from all dissimulation, because while we are kidding ourselves that we don't need this or that which Jesus said we did, God is always looking on our hearts, and He is not deceived by one word of protestation that comes out of our mouths (James 3:10, Matt 15:18, 19). It should make us blush to remember that He knows every single detail about us, and every thought we are about to think, were it not that we have found Him just as faithful to forgive us our sins, and to plunge us into His death through Jesus Christ, and deliver us into the kingdom of light. (John 3:21, Col 1:13)

I'm listening now to a messaage by Norman Meeten, which complements Alan Martin's exposition, called [url=http://www.newcovenanttapes.co.uk/_mp3/NL2008/NL0807.mp3]The Outworking of the Holy Spirit[/url]. He covers repentance [i]thoroughly[/i], when he gets to it, just before the middle. (There are a couple of scratchy places in this recording, but they soon pass.)

Blessings, brother. You are on the right track to be grappling with these great truths, and making them yours, early in your Christian life.

amen

what does your conciense tell you in light of scripture? no one can tell you, only God. It depends on how close we are to the Lord and his light, what he shows us, somethings may be very sinful to me, but to someone just saved it might not be since they have not seen it yet. But it does say no one born of God practice sin.

Practice=poieo {poy-eh'-o}
Meaning: 1) to make 1a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc. 1b) to be the authors of, the cause 1c) to make ready, to prepare 1d) to produce, bear, shoot forth 1e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self 1f) to make a thing out of something 1g) to (make i.e.) render one anything 1g1) to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that 1g2) to (make i.e.) declare one anything 1h) to put one forth, to lead him out 1i) to make one do something 1i1) cause one to 1j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about) 2) to do 2a) to act rightly, do well 2a1) to carry out, to execute 2b) to do a thing unto one 2b1) to do to one 2c) with designation of time: to pass, spend 2d) to celebrate, keep 2d1) to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover 2e) to perform: to a promise

and remembering that John wrote this letter to a church where some gnostic teachings where trying to overtake it becomes clearer, some gnostics taught that one can believe and after that it does not matter how much you sin because once you are saved you can never lose your salvation no matter how you live, and john i think addressed this in this letter. This is just my personal opinion, so i encourage you to read and pray and ask God show you, he will when the time is right. Have an open heart and prayerfully and humbly come to the scriptures and God will show you great things.

repentance is needful and biblical.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who bewitched you not to obey the truth, to whom before your eyes Jesus Christ was written among you crucified?
Gal 3:2 This only I would learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Did you suffer so many things in vain, if indeed it is even in vain?
Gal 3:5 Then He supplying the Spirit to you and working powerful works in you, is it by works of the law, or by hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.

How is it that men teach that Righteousness can be walked in and attained by our own efforts? We are saved by the Spirit and we are sanctified by the Spirit, in each case it is a work of the Spirit. Saving faith and daily faith both come from the Spirit of God. In the presence of God, the genuine presence of God(This is the work of the Holy Spirit) we are changed. All of man's changes that are empowered by his own efforts lead not to righteousness but to utter failure or self-righteousness.........brother Frank

Greetings brother PaulWest,

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you. I am interested in extracting the essential component of meaningful repentance, from what you wrote.

When we ... finally surrender to all of our efforts of repentance and struggling against sin, God ...

We are already dead in Christ, because we were crucified in Him when God layed Him on the cross. Do you really believe this?

A new nature exists within us now that deplores sin, hates the very idea of sinning...and everyone who has been genuinely converted and is reading this knows exactly what I am saying.

God will at this very moment of profound weakness grant us the insight of what it means to be "in Christ" and how He alone is our Righteousness, our Strength, our Sanctifier. Then we will have the victory, because the victory is not intrinsic to ourselves, but the Living Christ in us, made perfect in our weakness.

Yes, 'victory is not intrinsic to ourselves'. Nevertheless, being dead, it is the only victory the crucified 'I' can enjoy. 'I' am [u]now[/u] included in Christ's victory. [u]His[/u] victory becomes [i][b]mine[/i][/b], doesn't it? 1 Cor 15:57

Thanks for your answer, Paul.

I am unable to die, because I am already dead, and reckon myself so.

Thus, when a believer discovers that the death of Christ was no only substitutionary with regard to his [i]sins[/i], he is not as ready to plunge into the death of Christ with Him, as he was to receive forgiveness, and a questionable promise of eternal life. Even for all the great teaching I came up under, I didn't understand what was been preached. It was not until I recognised the gulf between my believing and my experience of salvation, that I gladly abandoned myself to being grafted into His death.

I believe we are already dead and hid with Christ in God, [b]and God is merely waiting for us to reckon ourselves as such[/b], to concede and yield to the Holy Spirit...

And in Phil 3:3, 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, [b]being made conformable unto his death[/b]...

I still don't see the answer to my question. How can we be saved by grace and yet must repent? I don't deny that the Bible says, "Repent!" Yet, this is a seeming contadiction to me. If it's by grace, how come the Bible also says we must repent? I'm assuming that if salvation is "the gift of God" as the Bible says, then why must we repent to get a gift? That sounds more like a wage to me.

People are looking up the greek and hebrew words to define what grace or repentance is but how come God doesn't say in the English Bible that we ought to do this? Is there a defintion of what repentence or grace is in the Bible? If not, why not? Aren't these things the most important things ever? Doesn't our souls depend upon these things? Why would God not make it more clearer than He has by defining (without using greek or hebrew) what grace and repentance is?

"I don't deny that the Bible says, "Repent!" Yet, this is a seeming contadiction to me. If it's by grace, how come the Bible also says we must repent?" paulmcg1

Hi. In my opinion repentance is a form of grace. In order to be forgiven we must ask to be forgiven. Grace is not for the unrepentant. It is for those who have been convicted and enlightened to their sin first and foremost, THEN via conviction we ask to be forgiven of our offense by the atonement of Christ. Grace is God's forgiveness of our sins but grace is also the call for us to repent and accept what Christ did for us. You cannot accept Christ if you are not willing to repent, otherwise you will not know why He died in the first place. The law and Christ Himself told us what sin was. So we can either reject sin and accept His atonement or we can continue on. To me Christ and repentance go hand in hand for we cannot know Christ and accept atonement unless we believe what He said was sin and is sin, reject it, and accept His payment by the grace of His Father who gave Him over.... not to mention The Son's own willingness to give Himself over. Grace came by the Father calling on His Son to come into this world, teach us, and die as a sacrificial atonement.. and grace came by Christ's willingness to come here and do just that. This was free, we did nothing to prompt this sovereign action by God and His Son. It was their plan, graciously given.

Take for example, those who have children want their children to understand the difference between right and wrong. How do they know this unless they are wooed by their parents and taught this difference? A parent can forgive their teenager for doing something wrong but this, in and of itself, does the parent nor the teenager any good if they continue in rebellion as if they have been taught nothing. God's grace in fact gave us the law. Without it we would not know our offense. Why give the law for conviction if grace will not forgive on the other end?? Grace is the forgiveness and mercy of God to the repentant heart when it is enlightened to the offense to God. The gift of salvation was Christ himself, we didn't ask for Christ to be the atonement gift.... HE WAS INDEED GIVEN FREELY. Salvation is not a gift in and of itself, if it were God would not have needed to crush His Son for our benefit. My view is that Christ is the gift, salvation is the the reward of that gift. God gave us His Son via grace to atone for our sins BUT how do we know what is atoned for if we don't see the offense and want to turn from it?? Why would Christ feel it necessary to tell us what sin was if He didn't want us to know of this and turn from it? Christ wants us to reject sin and ask for His atonement in faith. In my view we can't reject sin without repenting of the offense... and we can't accept His sacrifice without knowing the grace of the Father who gave His Son over to be the penalty, a penalty no one ever asked to be done for us.

Who knew that the Father's Son was necessary for atonement? No one ever asked for it, no one ever thought of it!! It was God's sovereign plan to give us this gift, it was His idea... no man can claim this grace.... No man can say 'Okay God I have an idea, how about you give over your Son to die for us and then maybe we'll comply... maybe we'll see sin for what it is and turn from it'. It was His grace that gave us the gift of Christ and we cannot see this gift unless we know what it was for and why it was done for us.

[color=003399]Romans 2 NKJV

Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, [i][b]not knowing that [u]the goodness of God leads you to repentance[/u]?[/i][/b]

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; [u]but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness[/u] -- indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; ... vv 4 - 9a

Matthew 3:7
But when [John the Baptist] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to [u]flee from the wrath to come[/u]?

Acts 17 KJV
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; [u]but now commandeth all men every where to repent[/u]: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

1 Thess 1:2 - 10
We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, [u]having received the word[/u] in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: so that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how [u]ye turned to God from idols[/u] to serve the living and true God; and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] [b]Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come[/b].

Acts 2
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: [b]Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God[/b], ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it...

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said unto them, [u]Repent[/b], and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Then [u]they that gladly received his word[/u] were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. [/color]

In a nutshell, if there is sin in your life past or present, from which you have [i][b]not turned[/i][/b], then true repentance will enable you to feel both clean from your past, and empowered to cease that/those sin(s)from that moment on.

Then, you'll know you have repented, because you'll have the fruit of repentance in your life.

That's quite difficult to define, but don't forget restitution if it's relevant to your relationship with other people (which would mean it is relevant to God, since it's His idea in the first place), or, major changes in the way your life looks to observers, as a testimony to them that God has changed [u]your heart[/u].

[u]Eternal[/u] life is a free gift, but, we have been freed from sin (through repentance and faith and whatever healing/salvation is necessary) to walk in newness of life - righteousness, truth, and good works - while we're still on this earth. This is where eternal life begins.

[color=003399]Luke 24
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: [u]and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name[/u] among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.[/color]

Remember... when Paul was writing to Israel indirectly through his letter to the Romans, he was writing to a nation who had had [i][b]only repentance[/i][/b] preached to them by both John the Baptist and Jesus. This was a new message for Jews. They had never before been asked to [i]care[/i] about their sins enough to stop sinning, and still it was impossible, unless Jesus had spoken to them, healed them or delivered them. All that the law had done was bring sin to their attention.

Those in Israel who were watching for their Messiah were ready in their hearts. If He said 'repent' - they repented!

Thus, when Paul writes in Romans 10, he doesn't even mention repentance, but notice, Peter put it [u]first[/u] to the Jews present, who had come from other countries, on the day of Pentecost. But, the resurrection of Jesus Christ had eclipsed every other sign from God, beyond all imagination. A MAN had risen from death without any other intermediary, and been seen by over 500 people at once. As Jesus had said to James 'Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

John continues 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: but these are written, [u]that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name[/u]. (1 Peter 1:8)

Resurrection was a key Jewish belief, but everyone had thought it wouldn't happen until after they had all died physically, like what Martha said to Jesus in John 11.

But, [u]we[/u] [i]must[/i] accept the sentence of death upon [u]sin[/u] our lives. Repentance is the natural outflowing of our individual realisation that we are worthy only of eternal death because of sin, but Christ has saved us from [i]that[/i] death.

In response to repentance and faith, He can give the Holy Spirit to enable us to live free from sin - as others have explained earlier in the thread.

Repentance and faith are both gifts from God, and if we don't feel any of either of them, just as James said 'if any man lack wisdom, let him ask' we too, can ask our gracious God for repentance and faith, or, faith and repentance. He will understand the seeking of an honest heart, and He will reward it appropriately. Heb 11:6.

I hope this post doesn't seem like more woffle. I suspect if it does, that you may need to take some serious time out of your normal routine - even just one day - to focus on God and lie face down in His presence until you hear what you need to hear from Him.

Regarding a definition of repentance, a word search on it in the Old Testament brings up 45 entries in the KJV, which may give you some direction.

There is also this message in which Ron Bailey traces what we can understand by 'repentance' based on what we find in scripture only.

[url=http://mp3.biblebase.com/download.php?file=19]Repentance[/url]

Overcoming the power and penalty of sin, doesn't seem to have anything to do with not sinning anymore.

Could you explain in a few more words more of what you mean?

Thank you.

“How is it that we must repent and yet we're saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves? It seems to me that if we're required to repent, then it isn't much of grace.”

According to the Scriptures, turning from sin is compatible with grace and mercy. God graciously and mercifully pardons those who forsake their sin:

“He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and [b]forsaketh[/b] them shall have [b]mercy[/b].” Proverbs 28:13

“Let the wicked [b]forsake[/b] his way and the unrightous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have [b]mercy[/b] upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly [b]pardon[/b].” Isaiah 55:7

Grace is unmerited favor. Mercy is when you are not treated the way you deserve. Even those who turn from their sins still deserve hell. They do not deserve heaven or deserve forgiveness. Therefore it is not a “wage”. Since those who repent still deserve hell, their forgiveness is still of grace and mercy.

“All Christians (those whose identities are in Christ) are dead to the law through the death of Christ. Therefore they are not subject to the law. To the law, the Christian is dead. They CANNOT break the law, and so therefore they CANNOT sin! At all! There is no way a true Christian can sin because sin is transgression of the law”

Am I reading this wrong, or are you saying that if a Christian lies, steals, commits adultery, or commits murder, that it is not a sin for them? If a Christian does not love God or does not love their neighbor, aren't they sinning? Are you saying that Christians are not obligated to obey God? Only unbelievers are obligated to love God and love their neighbor, but Christians are not obligated to do so?

What about these passages given to Christians?

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.” Romans 13:8

“We [b]ought[/b] to obey God…” Acts 5:29

“He that saith he abideth in him [b]ought[/b] himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” 1 John 2:6

“Beloved, if God so loved us, we [b]ought[/b] also to love one another.” 1 John 4:11

If Christians are not under obligation to obey the law of God, how is it possible for Christians to keep the commandments? Just as you argued, you cannot break the law if you are not under the law, likewise you cannot keep the commandments if you are not under the commandments.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if [b]we keep his commandments[/b].” 1 John 2:3

“And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because [b]we keep his commandments[/b], and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.” 1 John 3:22

“Nor is repentance a synonym for keeping the law, as so many unwittingly affirm. Repentance is, as UncleBert said, the turning to Jesus Christ for salvation and safety. It is conversion. It is when a sinner turns from trying to work his own way to righteousness and SUBMITS to the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS.”

Does that mean that repentance is not turning from sin? Doesn’t the Bible talk about repenting of sin, not merely repenting of self-righteousness?

Were the people in the Old Testament saved a different way than us?

“He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.” Proverbs 28:13

“Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrightous man his thoughts: and let him return utno the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” Isaiah 55:7

According to the Scriptures, forsaking your sin is not incompatible with God’s mercy, but is actually a condition of God’s mercy. God offers mercy and pardon to those who forsake their sin. This is salvation by grace and mercy, through repentance and faith.

We are justified by God's grace and mercy. Grace is giving what someone does not deserve, mercy is withholding what a person does deserve. When we forsake our sin and believe in Jesus, God withholds what we deserve (punishment), that is mercy, and God gives us what we do not deserve (forgiveness) that is grace.

I have heard of dispensationalism, but didn’t Paul argue that Abraham was saved by faith? That means that those in the Old Testament were not under some "covenant of works". Doesn’t that mean that the way of salvation in the Old Testament is the same as the New? If the people in the Old Testament needed to forsake their sin to find mercy, then those under the New Testament need to forsake their sin to find mercy, or else there are different ways of getting saved. A person must either believe in repenting of sins in order to get saved, or they must believe in dispensationalism.