The Multifaith agenda (The Shack) and standing up for the Gospel

D

deltadom Jun 20, 2009

Evangelizing in Southhall

We were down in Southhall in London which is a predominantly Muslim area. When they speaking with us they were using words like Repentance and Forgiveness, saying that Allah forgives.I have never heard Muslims use so much Christian lingo.

The church service in the morning at the church they had a church of england minister in and he was talking about christian unity in the church using john 17.

John 17
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

The end of the verse he missed

quote]
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me,

That the world may know thou has sent me, Most of the church does not evangelize, this is another complete theological debate.
IS evangelizing and the church the same thing!

John 17
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified F35 through the truth.

John 17
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

I would have been happy if he used these verses!

The Shack
According the Wesleyowen (http://www.wesleyowen.com/WesleyOwenSite/pages/home/default.asp) in Christian Bookshops

The shack uses the words

The Shack (Page 182)
Those who love me come from every system that exists. They were Buddhists or Mormons, Baptists or Muslims, Democrats, Republicans, and many who don’t vote or are not part of any Sunday morning or religious institutions. I have followers who were murderers and many who were self-righteous. Some are bankers and bookies, Americans and Iraqis, Jews and Palestinians. I have no desire to make them Christian, but I do want to join them in their transformation into sons and daughters of my Papa, into my brothers and sisters, into my Beloved (P. 182).

d

and this book is the most popular book in the UK at the moment!

I still have not quoted the Beloved American President Barak Obama speech in Cairo (www.america.gov/media/pdf/ejs/archives/obama_cairo_speech.pdf)

This truth transcends nations and peoples -- a belief that
isn’t new; that isn’t black or white or brown; that isn’t
Christian or Muslim or Jew. It’s a belief that pulsed
in the cradle of civilization, and that still beats in the
hearts of billions around the world. It’s a faith in
other people, and it’s what brought me here today.
We have the power to make the world we seek, but
only if we have the courage to make a new beginning,
keeping in mind what has been written.
The Holy Koran tells us: “O mankind! We have
created you male and a female; and we have made
you into nations and tribes so that you may know one
another.”
The Talmud tells us: “The whole of the Torah is for
the purpose of promoting peace.”
The Holy Bible tells us: “Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called sons of God.” (Applause.)
The people of the world can live together in peace.
We know that is God’s vision. Now that must be our
work here on Earth.
Thank you. And may God’s peace be upon you.
Thank you very much. Thank you. (Applause.)

In which he says that christians are know different than Muslims!

Joh 14:6 - Show Context
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus is the way, truth and the life no other religion or any other thing can save us from our sin

Ro 14:11 - Show Context
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Php 2:10 - Show Context
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Those that do not believe will be cast into the lake of fire

Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great,

stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell F32 delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Acts 17
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given F38 assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Ac 16:31 - Show Context
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

This last bit is for anybody who is not a christian! If you are not, you should repent and believe on the Lord Jesus christ!
As only Jesus is the one who can save us from our sin and no other religion can save you from your sin or hell!

sermonindex Jun 20, 2009

Dear Dom,

Thank you for this post.

I have been dismayed and embarrassed some weeks ago when a book table appeared at the hall where our church meets, to find both the Shack and Your Best Life Now, there.

I could not bear to read either of them, but I shall be asking for an elder to read p182 of The Shack, for sure!

T

trxx Jun 20, 2009

The Shack (Page 182)

Those who love me come from every system that exists. They were Buddhists or Mormons, Baptists or Muslims, Democrats, Republicans, and many who don’t vote or are not part of any Sunday morning or religious institutions. I have followers who were murderers and many who were self-righteous. Some are bankers and bookies, Americans and Iraqis, Jews and Palestinians. I have no desire to make them Christian, but I do want to join them in their transformation into sons and daughters of my Papa, into my brothers and sisters, into my Beloved (P. 182).

There was a time that I thought little of The Shack because I had heard that it portrayed God as a black woman. I listened to all of the negative comments regarding the book. Then one day it came to me that perhaps I should read it in order to discern for myself its value or lack of. If it were a "good" book then I would leave it for someone close to me to read because I know that they read a lot of fiction but are not yet Christian. I was taken by the book from the very beginning and quite literally unable to put it down. When I was done I could only recommend it to all. It is as a parable, not a theological text. Nevertheless, it has a lot to teach most. As for the quote that you gave its really unfortunate that you did not present the next paragraph which reads,

"Does that mean mean", asked Mack, "that all roads will lead to you [Jesus]?"
"Not at all," smiled Jesus as he reached for the door handle to the shop. "Most roads don't lead anywhere. What it does mean is that I will travel any road to find you."

Think about how this thought would have applied to Paul. He was a devout Jew by his own confession but his heart was truly seeking after God. Did Jesus ignore him? Not at all, rather He recognized that indeed Paul was seeking the Father in earnestness but he was a little misguided. Jesus met Paul where he was and brought him out of his false religion which is exactly what these paragraphs in The Shack are trying to illustrate. By itself the first paragraph as quoted seems blasphemous but in its context it is perfectly understandable. My recommendation for all to read it stands. It is wonderfully illustrative of God's love. I even find the characters, including "Aunt Jemima" as God, to be perfect. I thought as you both did, until I read it and judged it for myself.

sermonindex Jun 21, 2009

Hi trxx,

I even find the characters, including "Aunt Jemima" as God, to be perfect.

Perfect ~~[i]~~~~[b]~~fiction[/b][/i], I trust.

Your post illustrates how dangerous The Shack is, really, as by the time you got to p182 you thought that the part you quoted (below) was ~~[i]~~true[/i].

from The Shack, p182

"Does that mean mean", asked Mack, "that all roads will lead to you [Jesus]?"
"Does that mean mean", asked Mack, "that all roads will lead to you [Jesus]?"
"Not at all," smiled Jesus as he reached for the door handle to the shop. "Most roads don't lead anywhere. What it does mean is that I will travel any road to find you."

'I will travel any road to find you' says - in the context of the preceding paragraph - that Jesus could be a practitioner of any of the religions mentioned in that preceding paragraph.

But we know that is not possible. That is not true. In other words, that sentence is a lie (in its context) and Jesus Himself didn't do that.

He explained the limitations of His ministry, (Matt 15:24), and how it worked - 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3) John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. John 12:32 - and, how His ministry through us would work: John 13:12 - 20.

We have to be clear, here, that even though all men are made in the image of God originally, He Himself cannot dwell with them, because of sin, and their outward religion is another barrier which also must be laid down, to enter into fellowship and actually ~~[u]~~know Him[/u].

Yes, the Holy Spirit broods over the deeps of every man, ready to put His word into his mouth, but, Jesus sent ~~[u]~~us[/u] into the world, to make disciples of all men, and He can be with us in that endeavour, only as we are obedient to His leading. (Remember: Acts 16:6.)

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

Jesus has already suffered on this earth, especially man's unbelief and all manner of contradiction by sinners. It is now up to us - His body on earth - to manifest His life to the world, to walk in truth according to the Spirit of Truth which is in us, being dead to sin and the world, and to suffer for His sake - Rom 8:17, Phil 1:19, 2 Tim 3:12, 1 Pet 4:1, 1 Pet 4:19.

But, that doesn't mean it's okay for us (Christians) to also become Muslims or Bhuddists, Hindu or pagan, (as some 'Christians' seem to think is okay), or in any way concede one jot or tittle of truth, to their teachings.

We are called to speak THE TRUTH on this earth, because that's all that Jesus could speak when He was here. He could only live out the word of God, because He IS the Word of God - the Logos. He doesn't compromise or deviate from it for anyone. That aspect of His power is non-negotiable. Psa 138:2, Luke 11:28, John 5:38, John 12:48, John 17:17.

The whole point of His coming to earth, was to draw men to Himself. That is, for them to ~~[i]~~~~[b]~~leave[/i][/b] the path that they are on, and follow ~~[i]~~~~[b]~~Him[/i][/b], because without Him, they are ~~[u]~~lost[/u]. ~~[b]~~He is the Way[/b], and that is the exact opposite of the paragraph you quoted. [color=003399]Isaiah 55 (whole chapter).[/color] I know He brings lost ~~[u]~~sheep[/u] back to the fold, but they were always sheep - John 10:16 - and that is another mystery of the way the word of God works in a person to bring them to faith.

Mark 6:11 Let's be honest with ourselves; The Shack was written by an atheist, and its popularity amongst Christians is a testimony against them, that they don't know Him or His word nearly well enough, to see just how dangerous that 'parable' actually is - and that souls are being beguiled by it. It is no way comparable to the truth of scripture, no matter how true to this world or this life that it ~~[i]~~is[/i]. John 12:21, John 12:23, 24, 25, 26.

~~[i]~~I heard the voice of Jesus say, “Come unto Me and rest;
Lay down, thou weary one, lay down Thy head upon My breast.”
I came to Jesus as I was, weary and worn and sad;
~~[b]~~I found in Him a resting place[/b], and He has made me glad.

I heard the voice of Jesus say, “Behold, I freely give
The living water; thirsty one, stoop down, and drink, and live.”
I came to Jesus, and I drank of that life giving stream;
My thirst was quenched, my soul revived, and now I live in Him.

I heard the voice of Jesus say, “I am this dark world’s Light;
Look unto Me, thy morn shall rise, and all thy day be bright.”
I looked to Jesus, and I found in Him my Star, my Sun;
And in that light of life I’ll walk, till traveling days are done.

I heard the voice of Jesus say, “My Father’s house above
Has many mansions; I’ve a place prepared for you in love.”
I trust in Jesus—in that house, according to His word,
Redeemed by grace, my soul shall live forever with the Lord.

Horatius Bonar[/i]

Psalm 23:1 The LORD [is] my shepherd; I shall not want. 2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. 3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. 4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. 5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

sermonindex Jun 21, 2009

ALIVETOGOD: I'm sorry, but I think it is time for you to go. A little leaven leavens the whole lump, and I am sure you can see that this is anti-Christ, in it's purist form. Why would any elder or leader distribute this wickedness? It is another gospel, a lying gospel, and in Reality, no gospel at all.

The only instance that I would advise you to stay, if the information was planted by a foreign visitor, and this seems highly unlikely. Get your running shoes on, and RUN!. Find a simple, Gospel believing, gospel living fellowship, and love and serve the true body, for their is poison in the camp, and evidently apostate and deceived Pastors too.

Alive-to-God wrote:
Dear Dom,
Thank you for this post.
I have been dismayed and embarrassed some weeks ago when a book table appeared at the hall where our church meets, to find both the Shack and Your Best Life Now, there.
I could not bear to read either of them, but I shall be asking for an elder to read p182 of The Shack, for sure!

RUN!

G

ginnyrose Jun 21, 2009

Brother Dom,

Just do not forget that Obama is a politician. A politician will say anything to 'make peace'. Obama does not speak for God. God allows it and so we recognize it. As president we are still commanded to honor the office and by extension, the person. American politicians have a knack for mixing 'religion' with politics in order to get elected and stay elected.

President Clinton is so versed in the scriptures that it is said you can have a very good discussion with him about it. But his life? Brother, I fear for his soul! (on the one hand I feel sorry for him - he was raised in an abusive home, went to the church down the road and found peace there and immersed himself in it. BUT he is now an adult and has to make choices like everyone else. And he has made his and it falls far short. This is just a tiny lessons on how American politicians function.)

Unfortunately, too many Americans stake their hope of the future on our current president. Would you know there are people in the south who expect Obama to come along and pay their utility bills, their car payments and their house payments? Yes, he is a god to many people, but not to the Christian. And the irony is that we are commanded to pray for him, the one that is a god to many....

God bless...now back to your subject...

ginnyrose

T

trxx Jun 21, 2009

You are absolutely right in suggesting that it is pure fiction. You are also right that there is only one way. Where we differ is in our understanding of what the author is portraying when he uses in the reply that Jesus would travel any road to find him. It does not suggest (to me) that Jesus will allow him to stay on that road but as He did for Paul He will meet his sincere desire to know God and to be pleasing in His sight, however misguided, and will bring him out of it and into a right understanding and relationship to Him. It in no way implies an endorsement of any other religion.
I have always regarded fiction as a waste of time and recognize few works of fiction as being worth the time it takes to read them. After all, why read something that isn't true when I could read something more edifying and uplifting. Does that mean that we cannot learn from fiction - of course not, it is more of a preference for myself. Still, In His Steps by Charles Sheldon, Pilgrims Progress and now The Shack are the rare ones that I would heartily recommend.
I have read the entire book and stand by my recommendation that it was and is a great read. And yes, we can learn something from it.

R

roadsign Jun 21, 2009

And yes, we can learn something from it.

I agree!
Quite some time ago I posted my own review of “The Shack”. While that may have been a great personal exercise in discernment, I don’t think it did much for the kingdom of God. I mean, I did not catch the drift of what is going on. We need to ask: Why has the Shack swelled in popularity? What is the lesson for us in that? How can we use a popular trend to give us clues for how to touch needy souls today?

Clearly, the Shack is touching an empty, needy spot within souls. Is this an emptiness that the church has failed to fill? Has the church failed to convey the beauty of a forgiving relational God? Is the Shack filling a void left by modern rationalism, naturalism? etc

If so, then criticizing the book isn’t going to do much good. It won’t fill the seeking soul. It may even decrease our own credibility.

I [Jesus] will travel any road to find you."

Sadly, many are feeling that the church has failed to present this kind of Christ. Jesus, it seems, belongs to the Western church, and only those who fit a certain class of people. This is the sad outcome of religious observers who turn the free-flowing love of Christ into a boxed-in religion, be it conservative, liberal or other. It’s hard to see our own box while we are in it. It’s hard to see where we fail to experience God’s lavish grace for ourselves, and where we fail to emanate it. May God shake us out of our boxes!

For many people, the Shack, restores their hope in a God who comes down to the level of humanity. While I believe that, in this respect, the Shack falls short, it just might be closer than the assumption that God is distance, condemning, and partial. For some, the Shack may simply be an icebreaker.

Right now I am reading Oswald Chamber: Abandoned to God – his life story. Now, there is a man who emanated the love of Christ, and non-believers could see it. Chambers still emanates Christ – through his popular devotional, “My Utmost for his Highest”.
If Chambers was alive today he would not likely embark on a critique against the Shack. He never treated his own opponents that way, “He always let the other man have it all his way.” (pg 87) Instead, he kept faithful to his own calling.

It’s just not in our nature to respond that way, but consider this: If our God is so big, then he can deal “the others”. Our job is to abandon ourselves to God and let God radiate through our brokenness. In that way we will be able to usher the empty and needy souls into the presence of God. When others see him in us, and when they experience the real God, then the Shack, which is merely fictional, will fade into the shadows.

Diane

sermonindex Jun 22, 2009

Hi Diane,

trxx said

I have read the entire book and stand by my recommendation that it was and is a great read. And yes, we can learn something from it.
you said
I agree!

I hope you can also agree that this may not be a book for spiritual children, who are still 'tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Eph 4 KJV.

The renewing of the mind by the Holy Spirit is mentioned five times (the number of grace), in the New Testament.

There is, also, the matter of stewardship of time, and that not everyone ~~[i]~~should[/i] read all that is available. The decision to read or not to read should be just as much a matter for prayer, as other decisions about how time is spent. I would guess most posters on SI would urge us to stop or greatly reduce the amount of tv or sport we watch, for the same reasons, even though God can speak to people through those non-Christian mediums, also.

Clearly, the Shack is touching an empty, needy spot within souls.

Not having read it, and having no intention of reading it, let me simply say that our enemy will fill our emptinesses with anything at all, especially if it draws us away from God, from seeking God, from knowing God, from time in our Bibles (and so on). It is not the responsibility of 'the church' to 'fill' a person - at least, not according to Paul, who famously said 'Be ye being filled with the Holy Spirit' Eph 5:18 'And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess.'

We could look for a spiritual way to interpret 'wine', such as Rev 17:2, 1, [waters = peoples], Rev 17:4, 5, 6, 7, or simply take it at face value: Luke 21:34, Rom 13:13, Gal 5:19, 20, 21; 1 Pet 4:4; John 7:37, 38, 39.

1 Cor 12:13; 1 Cor 10:20, 21, 22, 23; James 3:11, 10; Prov 4:23; 1 John 5:20, 21.

Diane, I do realise that a preacher has to have his / her ear open to what is going on in the world, so as to be able properly to address the needs and heartaches of the hearers, but that specific calling, is not given to all, and, I don't think we can generalise other-spiritual food ~~[i]~~into[/i] the body of Christ, in the same way as we can generalise the declaration of the word of God to the world.

sermonindex Jun 22, 2009

Greetings Brothertom,

ALIVETOGOD: I'm sorry, but I think it is time for you to go. A little leaven leavens the whole lump, and I am sure you can see that this is anti-Christ, in it's purist form. Why would any elder or leader distribute this wickedness? It is another gospel, a lying gospel, and in Reality, no gospel at all.
The only instance that I would advise you to stay, if the information was planted by a foreign visitor, and this seems highly unlikely. Get your running shoes on, and RUN!. Find a simple, Gospel believing, gospel living fellowship, and love and serve the true body, for their is poison in the camp, and evidently apostate and deceived Pastors too.... RUN!

I am indebted to you for this word, as the situation is not straightforward at all. Wheels within wheels, but not of God, if I could put it that way. However, I believe the pastor and his wife themselves simply have no idea how far off they have been drawn away from truth - and that... within the charismatic/pentecostal movement in Great Britain, which, for the most part has not gone to the excesses of that in the US.

After I read your post, I remembered that that was the same word of prophecy which came during my first visit to that church about a year ago: 'Run! Run! Run as Elijah ran from Jezebel.' (The person who prophesied was an American, who has since returned to North America.) Now, I wonder if that was a kind of baton of understand he was passing (to me), by the Spirit, although the time, I took it as a ~~[i]~~personal[/i] word, the roots of the relevance of which were in a situation in my past, from which I'd recently received spiritual release.

But this year, recently, I listened to Carter Conlon's ~~[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=14609]~~Run for Your Life![/url] for the first time, and realised (in the context of ~~[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=11764]~~Escaping the Theology of Babylon[/url] and ~~[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2994]~~Sataic Seduction in the Last Days[/url]), that the subtlety of this denomination's drift into error has been anything but a riptide.

The church I attend has midweek house group meetings, and I am in a particularly safe place in the one I attend. I ought not to justify that statement on a public forum, but I believe God has things in His hands, and there is real hope for this particular pastor. He's not actually a ~~[i]~~pastor[/i] - he's an ~~[i]~~evangelist[/i] - so he's right out of his depth and said so two weeks ago. That's another twist in the situation.

Thus, I had already removed my heart from under his care, and submit myself to safer eldership outside both this 'church', and the cell group - although I do also submit myself within the cell group, because it is safe.

If anything, I believe God may have sent me to alert others to what is going on, and prayerfully, to be part of the solution. Now I do realise that will require a radical response from the 'pastor', but he's that sort of person. The first time he heard the gospel explained to him personally, he gave his life to Christ, and I think he's been an evangelist ever since.

The problem this raises, is that as a young Christian, he was drawn into a successful seeker-sensitive situation, and remained there for many years, so his concept of 'the Body' is limited and controlled by his past experience - to the point that there doesn't seem to be anywhere in his mind that his pastoral call, was to get him out of error, and release him as an evangelist for the Church at large. I would see this realisation as an essential step to his giving the rest of the local body freedom to function. However, in the melt-down which led to his call to this church, there were casualties, some of whom left and some of whom stayed; so, there is a need for healing, before there can be healthy growth.

The Sunday before yesterday, the pastor's wife was preaching about 'anointing', using material from a ministry day she'd attended that week. At the end, she used God's command to Elijah to 'anoint' Elisha, as the basis for inviting ~~[i]~~anyone[/i] who wanted to be prophesied over for some gift or other, to come forward to be anointed with oil for that gift. I was so alarmed I left the room, knowing that my cell group leader IS (dare I say it...?) a prophet, and would only 'prophesy' if GOD gave a word.

I wrote about this sermon to an elder I know, who reported: 'I am aware of the anointing for prophet or intercessor by AoG pastors. [...] I attended an intercessor conference in London Ontario a number of years ago and everyone who felt led to be an intercessor was called to the altar to be anointed with oil by the guest speaker, who was an AoG pastor from the USA. I don’t believe there to be any Biblical examples in the NT to confirm this practice.'

Well, neither did I, but it sure was precious to have such a first hand confirmation of my grasp of the New Covenant.

Tom, usually I avoid it, but now I'm planning to look for the book table next Sunday, to see if anything has improved.

Yes, it's a big situaion, but God is greater, and last night the one real pastor on the pastoral team (with years of experience), who has been sidelined in a number of ways, was preaching, and gave an excellent message. Just when my flesh was longing to jump in with 'advice', God got through like a hot knife in butter. How I'm praising His wisdom and grace!

M

Miccah Jun 22, 2009

"The Shack" = pure garbage.

Throw it were it belongs... In the trash can.

sermonindex Jun 22, 2009

Clearly, the Shack is touching an empty, needy spot within souls. Is this an emptiness that the church has failed to fill?

~~[b]~~Yes.[/b]

Has the church failed to convey the beauty of a forgiving relational God?

~~[b]~~Yes, grievously so.[/b]

Is the Shack filling a void left by modern rationalism, naturalism? etc

~~[b]~~Yes[/b]

My only other response is, I read it, it's a "nice" book, I'm not given to reading much fiction, I prefer non-fiction, like the Bible. That said, if this work serves as an "icebreaker" as you put it, and brings just ONE soul to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, I PRAISE God!

Would I "teach" out of it? no, but would I "slam" it? No. I'm weary of slamming anything, I want the pure and lovely and honorable and commendable to think about, all the other "stuff" is just straw, destined for the fire, and that includes divisive issues.

That's all I want to say, in love, Jesus' love, neil

R

roadsign Jun 22, 2009

And yes, we can learn something from it.
Diane said
I agree!
Alive to God said: I hope you can also agree that this may not be a book for spiritual children, who are still 'tossed to and fro

And I trust that by reading my entire post you see this to be true. The challenge is to remember that our calling is not to be policemen for God. We are not in a position where we can tell anybody what to read and what not to. No, we are called to be ushers – to usher people into the presence of God.

I do realize that a preacher has to have his / her ear open to what is going on in the world, so as to be able properly to address the needs and heartaches of the hearers, but that specific calling, is not given to all

I read the Shack in order to have an informed response for friends who were enamored with it and requested and valued my opinion. Being informed opened the door for discussion. For me it’s tempting to simply criticize the book instead of use aspects of it as a launching point to stir others beyond it - on towards maturity and a deeper well.

The drift of my earlier post was to point out that the Shack may teach us indirectly - maybe something that we have been blind to – about our society, human nature. Yes even our own response to the book may teach us something about ourselves, our attitude towards others, and even our understanding of our calling).

Frankly I have been baffled as to why the Shack would be so gratifying, when there are deeper wells. But, the calling for me is to walk beside others on the dusty road and encourage them towards God. The best way I do that is actually doing so myself.

This was the key to the success of Oswald Chambers. People could see Christ radiate through him and many were converted.

I don’t think we Christians understand people very well. That was one of Chamber’s criticisms of his day. One day he told someone who claimed to read only the Bible and related books:

“You have allowed part of your brain to stagnate for want of use. … The man who reads only the Bible does not, as a rule, know it or human life.”

Diane

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roadsign Jun 22, 2009

I'm weary of slamming anything,

PTL, Neil!

I want the pure and lovely and honorable and commendable to think about

I’m convinced that you would really enjoy the book I am studying right now: Oswald Chambers; Abandoned to God, by David McCasland. Chamber’s heart desire was God and that others know God. Yet he was well versed with the literature of the day and studied it profusely. By choosing to understand people, he could relate to them. He said:

“In a day when many conservative Christians denounced the theater as the devil’s workshop, and avoided novels ... Chambers found that both presented useful, if painfully sharp, images of the human condition.”

Diane

L

linda7 Jun 22, 2009

I begrudgingly paid the money and bought this book, only because a "born again Christian" who sometimes meets with our small group raved on and on about it. I'm sorry, but if a Christian has to read this to find a loving God, there is something wrong with their conversion. The book is blasphemous and mine is at the bottom of a cupboard until I again meet this person and try to discuss it with them. Now to the point of blaming the church for all the people out there who have found comfort in this book (and not love from the Christian community in sharing the gospel); perhaps they have not given us a chance. I have heard a grown Christian pastor weeping over the radio after reading it. What seems to be lacking is communication with our Lord! For all the lost souls who are relating to it, are they the ones who won't listen to the gospel message of repentance? There is none of this in the book. Is the book sending them off to the churches to seek God? If so, then we should have lots of opportunity to relate the gospel to them, so they can know His love AND His Justice.

sermonindex Jun 23, 2009

Alive to God replied;

"The Sunday before yesterday, the pastor's wife was preaching about 'anointing', using material from a ministry day she'd attended that week. At the end, she used God's command to Elijah to 'anoint' Elisha, as the basis for inviting anyone who wanted to be prophesied over for some gift or other, to come forward to be anointed with oil for that gift. I was so alarmed I left the room, knowing that my cell group leader IS (dare I say it...?) a prophet, and would only 'prophesy' if GOD gave a word."

RE:..Brothertom; I sense your straining to please the Father, and Godly fear to walk with Him. Because of this, I am not worried that you will be deceived, but remember, deception spreads like a cancer; like yeast in a dough-loaf of bread. It becomes easier and easier to FEEL right, because the Spirit of conviction is dulled the more you DO and Receive the lie.

This "user friendly", universal idea that "the anointing" is a commodity that the Priest-class whips up and out, just because they are the anointed ones, is BOGUS! It IS the purist form of Nicolaitan control, and the center of power in the Babylonian system. If you believe that, and receive that, then you are controlled by "THAT".

It is also the strength of the MOTHER of WHORES herself, the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, who succeeded in instilling this exact lie into the world, in the form of transubstantiation. A big word that means that the Catholic Priest, and the Catholic Priest ONLY, has the power, the anointing to make wine real...the real and actual blood of Jesus, and the wafer, the REAL flesh of our Savior...like actually eating His skin, or part of His finger. The Priest therefore was the only one who had power over life and death, heaven and Hell.

This is the same idea, and it is anti-Christ. There is no anointing that they display, as their is no real forgiveness that a Catholic Priest can impart through their paganism, but you "believing" and "submitting" to it is the key. The "perception" of their power is all that matters, and then that becomes reality, and do not forget, that there can be a real and sensual energy that feels all positive, that Satan will ensure. This is often the thing that folks experience, and it is never grounded in the Bible. Experience always trumps Holy doctrine. They call it Apostasy.

There are no Pastorettes. It is absolutely unbiblical, and forbidden by the Apostles. You should be grounded in the Word by now, to know that, and church is not a meeting where you experience things, feelings or "anointings".

Church is the fellowship of believers, and is a Bond of the Spirit with the Redeemed , and local in it's application. It is the Saved, and also it is rooted in the daily lives that we live WITH that company. You are a part of that body, and your input and love and testimony there, needed and valuable. This is where the "anointing" lies, as the Body edifies itself in love, in community....COMMON UNION...."communion."

I hope you see this, and it is a little scary to come out of Babylon, because there is a security there. The danger is, that you will become numbed, and thereby trapped, and drained of your faith. "Let no man steal your crown!" "What is said that will lead you TO god, actually leads you AWAY from God!" ..[ Zac Poonen, on Babylon, Rev: series.]

Be brave and do the right thing. God will provide and lead you, for He has never forsaken anyone who seeks Him....my Christian love, Tom

sermonindex Jun 24, 2009

Hi Brothertom,

Thank you for the thoughtful and supportive reply. I believe the Lord has a plan here, and I'm just a small part of it.

Recognising the problem is a significant step in solving it, but there needs to be more than I who wish to see it solved. I'm trusting God to keep shedding light where it will be received.