hmmhmm
Jul 2, 2009
I enjoyed brother Poonens simple and scriptural explanation here without going into extremes, it blessed me. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1kMFFDb6tg]video here
I enjoyed brother Poonens simple and scriptural explanation here without going into extremes, it blessed me. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1kMFFDb6tg]video here
This is great! thanks for sharing brother.
sermonindex wrote:
This is great! thanks for sharing brother.
your welcome! its a great little video not long but just what scripture says and no extremes that contradict much other scriptures
I love Poonen but this is a joke. I hear this all the time! The word "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 IS AN ACTIVE VERB! Poonen starts right off the bat by defining it as a noun! Then he builds his entire arguemnt on the foundation of that error. The length people will go to skirt around the clear meaning of Scripture regarding election is amazing. Even wonderful Bible teachers will do this. YOU CANNOT DEFINE "FOREKNEW" HERE AS A NOUN! IT IS AN ACTIVE VERB! The dishonesty of people here is grevious...
It says WHOM God foreknew, not WHAT God forknew. His foreknowledge is of people, not events & happenings (ie what people would do. It is the same as Amos 3:2 where God says of Isael, "You only have I KNOWN of all nations on earth". The KNOWN is personal (Adam "knew" Eve) God had knowledge of all nations, but this KNOWN is a personal love. Everywhere in Scripture where GOD is the object and "forwknowledge" is the verb, it has to do with love. "For those HE FORLOVED, He also predestined. Be honest.
int3grity wrote:
I love Poonen but this is a joke. I hear this all the time! The word "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 IS AN ACTIVE VERB! Poonen starts right off the bat by defining it as a noun! Then he builds his entire arguemnt on the foundation of that error. The length people will go to skirt around the clear meaning of Scripture regarding election is amazing. Even wonderful Bible teachers will do this. YOU CANNOT DEFINE "FOREKNEW" HERE AS A NOUN! IT IS AN ACTIVE VERB! The dishonesty of people here is grevious...It says WHOM God foreknew, not WHAT God forknew. His foreknowledge is of people, not events & happenings (ie what people would do. It is the same as Amos 3:2 where God says of Isael, "You only have I KNOWN of all nations on earth". The KNOWN is personal (Adam "knew" Eve) God had knowledge of all nations, but this KNOWN is a personal love. Everywhere in Scripture where GOD is the object and "forwknowledge" is the verb, it has to do with love. "For those HE FORLOVED, He also predestined. Be honest.
I would have to agree with you int3grity. This is just the same as in Matt 7 when Christ says " Depart from me ye workers of inquity, I have NEVER KNOWN YOU.."
"God's foreknowledge here has to do with God knowing someone beforehand out of a desire to know that person initmately forever, not God looking down the road to see if that someone WILL accept Him."-Unknown
its the same word we find for God foreknew the jews in the same letter later, but its interesting, the same priciple proves also once saved always saved to be faulty just by looking at the greek in joh 3:16! its amazing what a little grammar can do to a doctrine many hold to be true.
If we just studied more grammar more people would relize only those who believe and continue to believe like the greek verb form says in joh 3:16 eternal security doctrine would not be held by so many.
Anyway, greek verb forms or not i found the video very good and simple, and i believe we can read and understand the bible in english and obey what it says. I find poonens rendering of these verses to be closest to the sum of ALL scripture. in my opinion :-) God bless
@ Integrity
I fail to see how Zac is defining foreknew as a noun, and how that even affects the argument about predestination
I'm with Zac on this one, but not trying to start a fight. I just fail to see where Zac failed to properly teach this doctrine.
Wordizlife wrote:
@ IntegrityI fail to see how Zac is defining foreknew as a noun, and how that even affects the argument about predestination
I'm with Zac on this one, but not trying to start a fight. I just fail to see where Zac failed to properly teach this doctrine.
I agree, i do not see what difference it makes to Poonens message if it is a noun or a verb.
hmmhmm wrote:
its the same word we find for God foreknew the jews in the same letter later, but its interesting, the same priciple proves also once saved always saved to be faulty just by looking at the greek in joh 3:16! its amazing what a little grammar can do to a doctrine many hold to be true.If we just studied more grammar more people would relize only those who believe and continue to believe like the greek verb form says in joh 3:16 eternal security doctrine would not be held by so many.
Anyway, greek verb forms or not i found the video very good and simple, and i believe we can read and understand the bible in english and obey what it says. I find poonens rendering of these verses to be closest to the sum of ALL scripture. in my opinion :-) God bless
I agree about the "once saved always saved" position-one should be able to see that one must continue in the faith abiding, believing and bearing fruit until the end.
Pertaining to Poonen's video-it says " THOSE whom he FOREKNEW..." also (even in grammar) indicating that he did not forknow ALL-and that there are some whom he did not forknow. The "forknew" is directed towards the person themselves-not any act of the person, whether free will or depraved will.
Zac Poonen is my favorite preacher and such a GODLY man. this is a SECONDARY issue and should not change any opinion of brother Poonen or the value of his messages for any who disagree on this point.
Not a reply. Just adding to thread.
Saints, I believe Poonen is correct in light of the scripture(s) we read in Romans, 1 Peter and Ephesians. While it is true that we on earth are looking at these things as through a glass, darkly, there are obvious concepts propagated in the Word of God such as predestination and election and forknowledge, that we cannot simply repudiate or argue away just because of an antipathy we might have for Calvinism or reformed theology in general. In fact, I think it is unfair that these very concepts have been inextricably linked to "Calvinism", almost as if an automatic aspersion or stigma is laid upon those who readily admit (and accept) that these things (along with certain Arminian leanings) are clearly taught in God's Word and mutually viable. Instead of defending one certain camp with our theological intransigence, we ought to instead pray for wisdom in these matters and humbly learn at the feet of Christ what they all mean...and how they can be reconciled in our hearts and minds.
That said, I have learnt to lay this matter aside a long time ago, because, in my heart and mind, God has reconciled them. I am able to beseech all men to repent and at the same time hold to the truths of predestination, election, and foreknowledge. In light of scripture, we should be able to come to the conclusion that true repentence is a gift of grace - and is indeed granted by God - but not in an arbitrary manner as perceived by "dark glass peering" man with his human 2+2=4 logic.
As brother Poonen stated - and I unequivocally agree - these things we are discussing, defending, confuting have been determined before the foundation of time, in the illimitable wisdom of God which none of us can even deign to approach without immediately getting over our heads in endlessly contentious debates which will never be rectified or satisfied until we get to heaven.
And yet, attempting to reconcile these two supposed opposite "enemies" while we are still on this side of heaven may cause us to be rejected by both camps to some degree. The Arminians will have no use for you because you obliterate the conscious efforts of man in salvation; the Reformed camp will also have a bone to pick because of a symbiotic factor of man that took place at an unknown point in time, ions ago before the creation of the world, and which only God is cognizant of, and which he has already appropriately ruled upon.
This is why I can preach both camps with an undivided heart; I can believe in predestination as the Bible asserts, yet I can also square with all men needing to repent. The reason is simply because I do not know who the elect are; I don't know the men and women God forknew before the creation of the world...and how they would respond to the gospel when preached in 2009 at the precise point in time which God foreordained for them to hear it.
Excellent post Brother Paul. Very reminiscent of Spurgeon. He was not afraid of the theological tension found throughout scripture and did not back down from preaching ALL the Bible. I am not in this to defend any "camp." I simply do not believe scripture teaches it the way Zac Poonen preaches it. Excellent post none the less.
I am not in this to defend any "camp." I simply do not believe scripture teaches it the way Zac Poonen preaches it.
Oh, that more would heed this, and just wait on God for a greater maturity before hitting the streets and pulpits in their zeal. Before we endeavor to preach, we need to have endeavored in prayer and submission and patience. It takes alot of time for God to do his work of transforming grace in us - years and years in most cases. Lots of failures are usually required; crushing, painful defeats, with an onward, inexorable depletion of self to where God finally can get us like weak Moses in the desert, like Paul humbled in Arabia, etc.
PaulWest wrote:I am not in this to defend any "camp." I simply do not believe scripture teaches it the way Zac Poonen preaches it.
Oh, that more would fear this, and just wait on God for a greater maturity before hitting the streets and pulpits.
Your input has been a blessing to this forum.
May God continue to speak through you.
Hi everyone,
I do not want to enter into a debate about this topic but I wanted to share that I think that the scriptures speak of God knowing individuals or people beforehand in the context of their actions:
What came to mind was Isaiah 48:1-12(hebrew 'yada' verses 4 and 8) and Genesis 18:17-19(verse 19 hebrew 'yada').
Wish you all well.
int3grity wrote:
I love Poonen but this is a joke. I hear this all the time! The word "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 IS AN ACTIVE VERB! Poonen starts right off the bat by defining it as a noun! Then he builds his entire arguemnt on the foundation of that error. The length people will go to skirt around the clear meaning of Scripture regarding election is amazing. Even wonderful Bible teachers will do this. YOU CANNOT DEFINE "FOREKNEW" HERE AS A NOUN! IT IS AN ACTIVE VERB! The dishonesty of people here is grevious...It says WHOM God foreknew, not WHAT God forknew. His foreknowledge is of people, not events & happenings (ie what people would do. It is the same as Amos 3:2 where God says of Isael, "You only have I KNOWN of all nations on earth". The KNOWN is personal (Adam "knew" Eve) God had knowledge of all nations, but this KNOWN is a personal love. Everywhere in Scripture where GOD is the object and "forwknowledge" is the verb, it has to do with love. "For those HE FORLOVED, He also predestined. Be honest.
Although I do not know Poonen that well, the teachings I have heard from him seem to be mostly biblical.
I feel that you have accused him of saying something that I never heard him say in the video. I heard him say “whom he foreknew”. I don’t understand why you have such a problem with what he said that you would accuse Him like you did.
The biggest problem I have found is how someone who is so hung up on their doctrinal stance that they interpret what others say different from what they actually said. I hope that you are not like this and I want you to know that I am not accusing you of this either.
First of all God’s foreknowledge is not like our foreknowledge. We must rightly divide the word of truth. We must accept the sovereignty of God as well as the responsibility of man. If we don’t do this then we are in grave error according to the scriptures. The bible says that to whom He foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now we need to understand that God has only predestined those he knows (meaning in a spiritual relationship with Him) to be conformed to the image of His Son. He has not predestined any person who is unregenerate to be conformed to the image of His Son. God has to know a person beforehand. The bible says that God predestinated those He knew before the foundation of the world. Keep in mind that we have to reconcile everything that we believe with all the word of God which teaches the sovereignty of God with the responsibility of man. I am not hung up in any camp because I have gone outside the camp bearing His reproach. I will admit that I don’t know all the mysteries of God but I refuse to misrepresent my Lord by believing in something that the scriptures do not support, I had rather say I just don’t know. Praise God brethren for his ways are much higher than our ways.
I have not found one scripture in the bible that says that God has predestined anyone one to be conformed to His Son without knowing them first. I love the fact that God foreknew me before the foundation of the world and also predestined me to be conformed to the image of His Son because I want this more than anything in the whole wide world. If God be for me then who can be against me.
Blessings to you all!
What the? You guys can't see this? What the? This is frustrating.
I have not found one scripture in the bible that says that God has predestined anyone one to be conformed to His Son without knowing them first. I love the fact that God foreknew me before the foundation of the world and also predestined me to be conformed to the image of His Son because I want this more than anything in the whole wide world. If God be for me then who can be against me.
this was wonderful! thank you it made me glad :-)
What the? You guys can't see this? What the? This is frustrating.
The truth will be vindicated in time, brother. Don't frustrate yourself too much over this forum. What do we have that we did not receive, and what do we know that was not revealed to us?
With care in Christ,
Taylor
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