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Prophecy being fulfilled, today, before our eyes!

sermonindex Jul 3, 2009

[b]'Obama' Think-Tank: Israel Should Cede Jerusalem Sovereignty[/b]

Events are moving very quickly regarding Israel and Jerusalem. Bible prophecy declared the day would come when all the nations would arise and come against Judea and Jerusalem seeking to divide it and remove it from its rightful place.

Israel is the only nation where its captial city Jerusalem and its land are subjects of negotiation principally by the United States. The current administraion seems to believe it has the divine right to determine who will control Jerusalem, and who will determine what land is to be ceeded to those who worship Allah.

Israel is to have little or no say in this matter regarding their capital city or the division of the land of Israel. Well, God Almighty has a great deal to say about this matter and it is recorded in the Bible in two very specific places:

Zechariah 12:2-3 & Joel 3:1-2

[b]"I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will be torn to pieces."

"In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land."[/b]

If anyone doubts the truth of Bible prophecy watch and pray! Whatever the Lord has spoken will come to pass regarding Israel and all the nations who seek to remove Jerusalem from its rightful place, and seek to divide God's land.

May God have mercy on America and Israel.

[b]'Obama' Think-Tank: Israel Should Cede Jerusalem Sovereignty
by Hillel Fendel, Arutz Sheva, Israel National News [/b]

A think tank which is arguably the most influential in Washington is proposing an “interim” neutral administration to govern Jerusalem instead of Israel.

The Center for American Progress (CAP), headquartered just three blocks from the White House in Washington, is regarded as one of the most influential think tanks in the city, if not the most influential. “CAP has been an incubator for liberal thought and helped build the [Democratic part platform that triumphed in the 2008 campaign,” according to a Bloomberg.com report, which noted that some of the group's recommendations were adopted by Obama while he was still president-elect.

Four weeks ago, CAP held a panel discussion based on the premise that the Old City of Jerusalem is the main impediment in finding a solution to the Israel-Arab problem in the Holy Land. Michael Bell, a former Canadian Ambassador to Jordan, Egypt and Israel, presented a plan entitled the Jerusalem Old City Initiative. The plan does not call for the internationalization of Jerusalem -- but is not far off from that. It recommends that both Israel and a future state of Palestine appoint a third-party administrator that would run and police the city.

Bell explained that the plan calls for an administration or regime that would govern the Old City of Jerusalem for an interim period, without either Israel or the PA giving up their demands for sovereignty: “Frankly, I don’t think there’s going to be any agreement on sovereignty. I think that the two sides need not cede their demands for sovereignty; these claims can remain exactly as they are today. The sides would simply agree to delay the implementation or assertion of these claims until after an agreement is reached. Until then, a special administration would be set up, with the two sides agreeing to set this up, at least on an interim basis. And what this would do … would be to ensure dignity, human rights and equity for all living in the Old City, all visitors, and all pilgrims.”

Questions and Clarifications

The implication that these values are not currently provided and offered by Israel was not challenged. An audience member did ask afterwards why the status quo could not simply be retained, and Bell responded, “We thought of this option ourselves, but we thought it would be too intangible…”

He also said, “I don’t think you would find a majority on either [side to the conflict that would agree to defer its claims to sovereignty” - though Israel is already sovereign there, and would seemingly not mind retaining the status quo.

Bell did not quantify the plan’s “interim period,” though he did imply that it could very well be “close to permanent.”

“The Chief Administrator would be appointed by both sides to administer the city according to the mandate they give him,” Bell said. “He would be accountable to them, but the mandate would have to be sufficiently forthcoming. They would have to agree that he would handle crises such as massacre, land-grab, or whatever, without their intervention.”

CAP Report Cites Western Wall as Holiest Site

The CAP report on the event states, “The Temple Mount’s Western Wall is the most sacred place of Jewish worship, and the al-Haram al-Sharif (Temple Mount), where Muslims believe that Mohammad ascended into the heavens, is the third holiest site in Islam.” However, law professor Marshall Breger -- co-author of “Jerusalem's Holy Places and the Peace Process” and consultant to the Jerusalem Old City Initiative – who spoke at the panel about the competing religious claims, said more than once that it was the Temple Mount itself, and not the Western Wall outside it, that is the holiest place in Jerusalem.

Bell: Whether Belief Systems are Historically Valid is Beside the Point

Both Breger and Bell dismissed the claims of those who challenge Islam’s connection to the site. Breger agreed, but implied that current Islamic claims that Judaism’s Holy Temple was never built there are totally unfounded, noting that the Waqf itself published literature some decades ago boasting that the Dome of the Rock is on the site of the Holy Temple. At that point, Bell said, “It’s very important to realize that it’s beside the point whether these belief systems are historically valid or not… It’s not up to me to tell you whether your narrative is valid or not…”

Breger: Take Politics Out

Breger similarly said that the argument that Jerusalem is not so holy to Islam is “a silly one.” He said, “It’s true that when Jerusalem was not under Islamic control, such as during the Crusader period, the British Mandate and under Israeli control, there was more discussion about Jerusalem in Muslim sources… but it’s silly to say that it’s not so holy to Islam, because you have to accept a religion’s definition of what is holy.” However, this appeared to contradict what he said just minutes before: “One of our problems is that we have to weed out the ‘politics of religion’ from the ‘doctrine of religion’…”

He did not note that Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in the Quran.

Breger did say that the current Muslim clerical view that non-Muslims should not enter the Temple Mount “was clearly not always the Muslim view,” since just a few decades ago the Waqf "charged admission to non-Muslim visitors."

Daniel Kurzer on Jerusalem

Daniel Kurtzer, an Orthodox Jew and diplomat who has been credited with coining the concept “land for peace” and insisting long ago that Jerusalem be included in Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, was the moderator. He said that discussing the option of imposing a settlement freeze on Jerusalem would make it easier to have serious negotiations.

Kurtzer further warned that a solution for Jerusalem had better be found before Israel builds its E-1 housing project near Maaleh Adumim and before the City of David (Silwan) Jewish settlement project proceeds much further.
Comment on this story

W
White_Stone Jul 3, 2009

I'm "watching."

white stone

H
hulsey Jul 3, 2009

Do you have the link to where you found this article?

W
White_Stone Jul 3, 2009

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132159

I found it by Googling : Israel National News
and then using the site search for the specific article.

Hope this helps,
I am still 'Watching.'
white stone

sermonindex Jul 4, 2009

History is simply repeating itself, nothing new under the sun. Those prophecies have been fulfilled long ago. Since the Church is now the chosen people of God made of both Jew and Gentile, there is no need to look to Jerusalem, but to the Jerusalem which is above we look to, which is the Mother of us all.

Galatians 4:21-26 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children[Jews]. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

sermonindex Jul 4, 2009

Hello Hulsey:

We know a Christian Jew who is a Missionary that lives in the West Bank (in Israel) that sends us email updates several times a week.

[url=http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132159]'Obama' Think-Tank: Israel Should Cede Jerusalem Sovereignty[/url]

This is another SIGN OF THE TIMES that sent us several days ago, that shows his intent of crippling families in the United States:

[b]Will U.S. Parental Rights Be Handed Over to UN? [/b]

[color=990000]The Obama administration is reportedly close to pushing ratification of the "UN Convention on the Rights of the Child" treaty (CRC). This is a call for prayer and action!

On June 1 and 2, Georgetown University Law School hosted a two-day symposium entitled "The Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC): Why It Is Time to Ratify." This well-funded conference was held to organize a new coalition effort by American internationalists to seek ratification of the UN child's rights treaty.

Ten things you need to know about the content of the CRC:

Parents would no longer be able to administer reasonable spankings to their children.

A murderer aged 17 years and 11 months and 29 days at the time of his crime could no longer be sentenced to life in prison.

Children would have the ability to choose their own religion while parents would only have the authority to give their children advice about religion.

The best interest of the child principle would give the government the ability to override every decision made by every parent if a government worker disagreed with the parent's decision.

A child's "right to be heard" would allow him or her to seek governmental review of every parental decision with which the child disagreed.

According to existing interpretation, it would be illegal for a nation to spend more on national defense than it does on children's welfare.

Children would acquire a legally enforceable right to leisure.
Christian schools that refuse to teach "alternative worldviews" and teach that Christianity is the only true religion "fly in the face of article 29" of the treaty.

Allowing parents to opt their children out of sex education has been held to be out of compliance with the CRC.

Children would have the right to reproductive health information and services, including abortions, without parental knowledge or consent.

Please pray and call officials and let your voice be heard.

Call the White House comments line at 202-456-1111.

Call UN Ambassador Susan Rice at the United Nations at 212-415-4000, and dial 6 to leave your message. OR dial the Public Diplomacy Office at 1-212-415-4050 and leave a message. OR dial her office directly at 1-212-415-4404. Again, you will need to leave a message.

This is not a message our officials want to hear, so speak courteously but do not expect a cordial reception. The important thing is to get the message through. It is important that you make this call. A decision by the President is imminent.

"The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, like the channels of water; He turns it wherever He wishes." (Proverbs 21:1)[/color]

[url=http://www.parentalrights.org/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC=%7BB56D7393-E583-4658-85E6-C1974B1A57F8%7D]Click here for 10 more things you shoud know abuot CRC[/url]

Click here to visit the home page of ParentalRights.org and read the article in detail

[url=http://www.parentalrights.org/]Parental Rights link to article[/url]

Sincerely,

Walter


hulsey wrote:
Do you have the link to where you found this article?[/quote

H
hulsey Jul 4, 2009

Yeah, I had heard of these things happening. Thanks for the links. We definitely live in interesting times.

W
White_Stone Jul 4, 2009

Today we have been reading from Romans 11: 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 [b]For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.[/b] 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 [b]As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.[/b] 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
---
I pray for the Nation of Israel. It was through them that the Books of the Old Testament were preserved. They have the Root, I am grafted in.

Praise the Lord,
white stone

sermonindex Jul 4, 2009

Yeah, I had heard of these things happening...We definitely live in interesting times.
Can you imagine what the Christian thought when Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini and other tyrants were taking power? Have you wondered what the Christian thought when Jews were being rounded up and being numbered with a tattoo on the fore arm? Have you thought how the Christian in that day would have thought when all countries of the world were engulfed in war?

They thought that the end was at hand. They were living in interesting times, war, pestilences, famines, peril, troublesome times, poverty. Put yourself in their shoes. To them there is no 2009 that they can reflect on, there is just the 30's and 40's to which they were living in.

In the 1980's, "The countdown to Armageddon", that was a time when people thought that world war 3 was eminent. The world was literally living in fear of what was going to take place next. Christians thought that Christ was going to appear at any moment. It was a dark decade, and they too were interesting times.

But they/we survived it, we came out alright and nothing of what the bible thumpers proclaimed was supposed to happen happened. There was no world war 3, there was no Armageddon.

Whenever there is crisis in the world, they dig out their scriptures again and again to squeeze that in their prophetic time line, only to have it wash away again.

The reason why it doesn't fit because it has already happened and fulfilled. Whenever there is a war, bible students dig out their bibles looking for some reason, there is no prophecy for it, life must go on. Wars will always occur, and peace and prosperity will come when righteousness exalteth a nation. It's a cycle thats been going on since Adam.

There will never be an end to the world, the only end that you will see is when you die. Ephesians 3:21

sermonindex Jul 4, 2009

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
You can't just stop here with this verse. It has to agree with the whole.

Paul said,

[b]For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh[/b]: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Now, I am not Anti Semite, I am merely putting things in perspective in regards to the unity of the body of Christ in that there is no special group in the body that is better than the other parts of the body.

Lets say that the Jewish nation is the head, and the Gentiles were the body. The head can't say to the body, I have no need of you. In order for it to function properly, it has to be one, it has to agree, it has to cooperate.

Now the reason why Paul said "as touching the election they are beloved for the fathers sake" is because of the covenant that He made with Abraham. It doesn't mean they are a special race of people, it means that God is faithful towards them, even though they are not with Him.

Look what Paul had to say about the so called "chosen people".

1 thessalonians 2:14-16 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us;[b]and they please not God[/b] , and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway:[b]for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost[/b] .
They can never charge God of being unfaithful to His promises.

L
Lordoitagain Jul 4, 2009

There will never be an end to the world, the only end that you will see is when you die. Ephesians 3:21

uhhhh . . . maybe I'm missing something here . . . but Deepthinker, what world are you talking about never coming to an end?

I don't know how Eph 3:21 got translated as "world without end". The greek from which it was translated was simply:

αἰών αἰών

In the same King James Bible, the word αἰών is translated 72 times as "ever" and 37 times as "world" . . .

What about this verse:

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,


where αἰών is translated as "world" . . . Jesus was saying that there would be an end.

How do you take these passages:

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


Please think deeply about these passages!

H
hulsey Jul 4, 2009

Can you imagine what the Christian thought when Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini and other tyrants were taking power? Have you wondered what the Christian thought when Jews were being rounded up and being numbered with a tattoo on the fore arm? Have you thought how the Christian in that day would have thought when all countries of the world were engulfed in war?

Indeed, the history of the last two thousand years has not escaped me. To put to rest your thoughts, I haven't lived in a vacuum. I'm well aware of the unrest in the history of the world as if our time is totally unique. However our time does bear much to be unique. Now my friend of history I would parry with my own 'have you considered?' question. Have you thought of the universal nature of the troubles moving the world today, how they are alike and yet unlike those of yesterday. Israel is in existence again and all the world's issues are surrounding Jerusalem.

I'm sure they thought the world was coming to an end as the Roman empire collapsed also but that's not the point. Never in history has all the world's issues centered around Jerusalem. Even when the Roman emperor expelled all the Jews out of Jerusalem and renamed it Phillistia (Palestinia is the Latin name of the nation of the Philistines.) did the world's troubles revolve around that city. It had no more effect on the world's politics or peace in that time than my home town of Gumbo Mo. However, wars are ready to erupt and nations are aligning themselves against Israel across the globe just as it was prophesied.

W
White_Stone Jul 4, 2009

There will never be an end to the world, the only end that you will see is when you die. Ephesians 3:21

This sounds as if you are saying there will be no judgment. No cleansing fire. No resolution.

I can not believe it is as you imply.

Perhaps I am not as learned as you but something does not feel right about your interpretation. You paint the gloomiest picture of the future I could imagine. A planet raped and ravaged by the greed of Nations. Oceans filling with indestructible plastic filth. Oil fields drained dry. None of that was in the mix in the 30's troubles.

I do think what you said about how the Saints living in the 30's & 40's thought the World was about to end is a good point.

Right now, if what you say is true, the only way for the world to continue forever is for a massive die-off of the human population to take place and for everything to start all over. In your scenario how will the next group of humans learn of Jesus? Do you think he will have to appear every few thousand years?

I believe the World without end will be with Jesus in New Jerusalem. I also believe there will be Saints who go there without dying, when they rise up to meet Him in the air. How do you explain away all those Scriptures?

Anxiously awaiting your reply,
white stone

sermonindex Jul 4, 2009

Lordoitagain, how solid are you in what you believe to be the truth concerning endtime bible prophecy?

sermonindex Jul 4, 2009

Whitestone, God bless you brother. I wouldn't say that I know a lot, not really. But there are things that I do dare to step out and declare even it means that I stand alone, and I certainly don't like to be someone who would draw attention unto himself, not at all. When we read the bible there are some things that we have not looked at that should be looked at again without the voices of those that have interpreted for us.

Everyone proudly says, "I get my interpretation from the LORD only". A foolish statement to make because everyone that listens to other men rave on in their sermons will pick up something. Jesus even said, "becareful how you hear".

We all adopt something from someone and it's the Holy Spirits job (with our cooperation) to sort out the truth from error, because "when the Spirit of truth is come, He shall guide you into all truth". Thank God for that.

So I, like you, am on a quest to know the truth, even if it means that what I come to know will not be liked amongst other brethren. However, that doesn't mean that we should become insensitive regarding truth and drop a bomb in front of these little ones lest we become a stumbling block to them, God forbid. I like to think that I am communing with older Brother and Sisters who have been in the way for a while.

In seeking the truth, there is always that danger of leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ and cleaving to teachings that are certainly not in line with the word of God. All that we believe should be in line with all the word, not just one verse of scripture here or there, such doctrines are too shaky and anyone who bases their foundation on it will end up having their house fall. It must be built on Jesus Christ. It must start with Jesus Christ.

And thank God even interpreting bible prophecy it starts with Jesus Christ.

There were many things that were spoken of our LORD in prophetic utterances that never did get fulfilled according to our imagination. But because we know the scriptures they were fulfilled. What am I talking about?

It said that when Christ would come He would rebuild the waste place. Well, Jesus never took up a hammer and nail to rebuild anything, but we know that He did in Spirit. Because we know the Temple that the prophet was referring was the people of God. God's interest is in Spirit, not what we see with our natural understanding.

Jesus is referred to as a lamb, but his Mother certainly wasn't an Ewe. He is referred to as a lamb as being innocent and pure without spot or blemish. Now these idioms that are used to characterize a person or thing, shouldn't we also take note of that when dealing with what Jesus and the Apostle spoke?

So when Jesus said that the Sun will turn black and the moon shall not give her light. We should look deeper into exactly what He is referring to.

We shouldn't take things at face value.

Nicodemus took Jesus words as what any man would think, "can a man return to his mothers womb and be born again?". That is a natural response. But Jesus wasn't speaking about that at all. We need to think about what we have come to know as truth and turn the tables upside down and have a reformation.

I haven't avoided your questions, I have to get back to work.

W
White_Stone Jul 5, 2009

Hello Deepthinker,

I do not believe the Bible is tricky. It is not productive to argue when/how I believe Jesus will return, and I apologize for my tone. I do feel you have spent too much time thinking deeply and you have complicated something that is supposed to be simple. I do not even think a person needs to be able to read to be saved. It is not dependent upon intellect, only on Faith in Jesus.

You did do a lot of typing, for someone who had to get back to work. I can wait as long as it takes to have my questions answered. I do not want to put you on a spot but that was a very odd thing to post and not provide follow-up. There are many here who are new to the Faith. Not everyone who reads the threads posts.

Kind regards,
white stone

sermonindex Jul 5, 2009

God Bless you brother.

I do feel you have spent too much time thinking deeply and you have complicated something that is supposed to be simple.
Actually I work in a Care Facility and some of my time is just sitting. That is one thing that I don't do a lot of and that is thinking to deeply. The Holy Spirit who is my teacher quickens the word of God to me and shows me by His word the simplicity of His word. When I believed the way you believed my friend many years ago, it was complicated and there was a lot of unanswered questions. That is why we have several camps to which people settle themselves into, Pre Mid and Post Tribulation rapture teachings. What Jesus has taught me is much more simpler, the confusion has lifted concerning dispensationalism and the scriptures all fall into place. Every where I read now, all I see is Jesus and that He kept all the promises and fulfilled them to a tee. The way I believed before kept me running around in circles because there was no end to the confusion. But there is money to be made in hype, just ask Jack Van Impe.

W
White_Stone Jul 5, 2009

Good Morning Deepthinker,

When I see words like 'dispensationalism' my minds just skips the whole thread. I do not worry about questionable points that do not produce good fruit. My husband and I worship daily. Together we listen to audio readings of the KJV and follow along with the written word confirming the text. (I feel it is doubly implanted in my heart to hear and read it at the same time.

Eccles. 12:13-14
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Mark 5:36 . . . . Be not afraid, only believe

Luke 8:50 . . . .Fear not: believe only. . .

Not every believer has been given the benefit of a higher education (some have none) but God writes His laws in the heart of every believer and I believe they are the same laws for each Saint. It is natural man that puts the shackles on new converts. Here is the answer for that. Titus 3:9: But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

We do not worry ourselves if there will be a rapture, or not. What does that matter? We follow Jesus, if it is His will that we suffer we trust He will allow us to do it with grace.

It is only on the part where you say this filthy world will continue forever where I balk. :-)

Kindest regards,
white stone

sermonindex Jul 5, 2009


To Deepthinker:

What does the Word of God say about the rapture? What does the Word of God say about a resurrection from the dead?

Mystery, n. [L. mysterium, Gr. A secret. This word in Greek is rendered also murium latibulum; but probably both senses are from that of hiding or shutting; Greek, to shut or conceal.]
1.\tA profound secret; something wholly unknown or something kept cautiously concealed, and therefore exciting curiosity or wonder; such as the mystery of the Man in the Iron Mask in France,

2.\tIN RELIGION, ANY THING IN THE CHARACTER OR ATTRIBUTES OF GOD, OR IN THE ECONOMY OF DIVINE PROVIDENCE, WHICH IS NOT REVEALED TO MAN.
3.\tThat which is beyond human comprehension until explained. In this sense, mystery often conveys the idea of something awfully sublime or important; something that excites wonder.
Great is the mystery of Godliness. 1 Timothy iii
Having made know to us the mystery of His will. Eph. I

We speak the wisdom of God in a mystery. 1 Cor 2

4.\tAn enigma; any thing artfully difficult

5.\tA kind of ancient dramatic representation

6.\tA trade; a calling; any mechanical occupation which supposes skill or knowledge peculiar to those who carry it on, and therefore secret to others.

[The word in the latter sense has been supposed to have a different origin from the foregoing, viz. Fr. Metier, Norm. mestier, business, trade, occupation, as if from Norm. metie, master. But this is probably incorrect.]


A mystery is something that has been concealed. In this case Paul is REVEALING a mystery that is not found in the Old Testament. Hence, it is NEW DOCTRINE.


The Rapture versus the 2nd Coming of Christ

"That day" referred to in 2 Thes 2:3 is not the rapture. "That day" is referring to the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ, at the end of the 7 year Tribulation. The term “falling away” is referring to apostacy (Strongs Concordance #646 = Apostasia)

Paul was taught face to face by Jesus Christ for 3 years—first in Arabia, and then in Damascas (Gal 1:12-18). Paul taught the revelation knowledge given to him by Jesus Christ of the coming rapture of the Church, before the beginning of the Tribulation. This Doctrine was not taught by the other Disciples, only Paul.

In 1 Thes 4:13-17 Paul starts off by telling them that he does not want them to be ignorant of the coming rapture of the Church (because they were ignorant of this fact!)

(1 Thes 4:13-17)
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul preached a pre-tribulation position. The whole 2nd Thessalonians letter only makes sense if Paul had taught them a pre-trib Rapture in 1st Thessalonians. Think about it. They were horrified at being told that the Day of the Lord had come. Why? If they were post trib they would have concluded that the 2nd Coming was only seven years away. But if they were pre-trib such news would mean that they had missed the Rapture, and that would mean that they weren’t saved. Now that would be cause for the kind of alarm their letter to Paul conveyed.

(2 Thes. 2:2) Paul explained that the Day of the Lord (Christ’s second coming, at the end of the tribulation) couldn’t come until three things take place. The falling away, or apostasy, the removal of the restraining power holding the anti-Christ back (the Church), and finally the anti-Christ’s official introduction.

The first of these three is underway today with the Emergent Church movement and the splitting up of the Evangelical Church over environmental and political issues. The second is the soon coming Rapture of the Church, and the third is the Abomination of Desolation that Jesus also spoke of in Matt. 24:15. (When Anti-Christ walks into the rebuilt Jewish temple and demands worship as God, 3 ½ years into the Tribulation)

Take heart, it all makes sense. Paul has told us, because he told the Thessallonians in the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 that the rapture comes first. In 2 Thes 2:2 Paul explains that the Day of the Lord (Christ’s second coming, at the end of the tribulation) couldn’t come until three things take place. The falling away, or apostasy, the removal of the restraining power holding the anti-Christ back (the Chruch, filled with the Holy Spirit), and finally the anti-Christ’s official introduction to the World.

[b][color=990000]Also, Christ has promised us (in the past tense) through the words of Paul, that by our belief in Him have already escaped the wrath to come!

1 Thes 1:1
10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter


DeepThinker wrote:
God Bless you brother.
I do feel you have spent too much time thinking deeply and you have complicated something that is supposed to be simple.
Actually I work in a Care Facility and some of my time is just sitting. That is one thing that I don't do a lot of and that is thinking to deeply. The Holy Spirit who is my teacher quickens the word of God to me and shows me by His word the simplicity of His word. When I believed the way you believed my friend many years ago, it was complicated and there was a lot of unanswered questions. That is why we have several camps to which people settle themselves into, Pre Mid and Post Tribulation rapture teachings. What Jesus has taught me is much more simpler, the confusion has lifted concerning dispensationalism and the scriptures all fall into place. Every where I read now, all I see is Jesus and that He kept all the promises and fulfilled them to a tee. The way I believed before kept me running around in circles because there was no end to the confusion. But there is money to be made in hype, just ask Jack Van Impe.

sermonindex Jul 5, 2009

I loved that last post, great attitude to have.

Not every believer has been given the benefit of a higher education (some have none)
I am of the "some have none" category. I live a simple life. The last thing that I wanted to know was bible prophecy. Believe you me, my intent is to know Jesus Christ and Him crucified, everything else didn't matter. I avoided reading the book of Revelation, I just didn't want to get messed up in that book. About ten years ago I was praying & fasting and seeking His face to know Him in a greater measure when the Holy Spirit made me undone of all that I have come to know as truth regarding bible prophecy. My position was Post Tribulation Rapture. And God in the twinkling of an eye just nullified that whole teaching and brought it down as nothing and the scriptures that I used to substantiate the facts became like water. I was like a man who was undone, someone whom the LORD stripped of His clothes and left naked.

For several months I mourned over my error, I could not read the bible because everywhere it spoke of what the LORD had already done and I couldn't face that, I had put all of these things in our future, of what I have come to read and know. After a very long time I picked up the bible once again and little by little began to read it, and I was seeing other things that literally boggled my mind, and I kept wondering how I was duped when I thought my doctrine was foolproof. Not just bible prophecy, but in other areas as well. I began to see Jesus lifted up where He rules and reigns over the nations with a rod of iron today, that the Kingdom of God had come already, that when we die we go and meet the LORD in the air, so shall we ever be with Him.

I have read the bible several times in my lifetime but now it has become a brand new book. Each time I read it there is something the LORD wants to quicken in me. Amen!

Lordoitagain asked me a question regarding the "elements burning up with fervent heat". I have an answer for him/her, but I have a feeling that it will only fall on deaf ears. There is an answer, but not the answer he is looking for. There has to be an introduction to it, you can't just drop a bomb and expect things to come together in few words.

We do not worry ourselves if there will be a rapture, or not. What does that matter? We follow Jesus, if it is His will that we suffer we trust He will allow us to do it with grace.
A resounding AMEN and a good attitude to have.

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