Katz, Israel and the Church

Israel and the Church Art KatzPreface We are going to be taxed to the uttermost in order to stay with God in the extraordinary complexity and richness of the subject of the mystery of Israel and the Church, and we need to ask the Lord to escort us on a journey, by the Spirit of the Lord. Can we safely trust Him? Even if He will bewilder us before we have an understanding?The Church needs to have a proper attitude toward the mysteries of God, a sense of reverence and appreciation for them, and a desire that they be revealed, because that revelation should influence everything that we are about in God. God is jealous over His mysteries, and He is not going to allow them to be mishandled, trifled with, or rudely examined by those who do not have a right disposition of spirit toward them. Paul is not interested in promulgating a mystery in order that we should have our curiosity aroused, but in order that the mystery might be effectually fulfilled and administered through the Church. We need to have a revelation of the mysteries of God, to embrace and experience them, or we will be unfitted to be the Church in its full apostolic constituency that alone is able to fulfill these mysteries. Mysteries are reserved for holy apostles and prophets, and they must come to us through them; then the teachers can follow to sift, refine and show the application. With the introduction of this subject of the Church’s role in the mystery of the restoration of Israel, the whole faith comes into a new and intensive focus. That is what it did for me. I had been a believer for twenty-five years, and I am Jewish, but that did not automatically give me any necessary insight into the mystery of Israel. When the insight came, in a moment of God’s choosing, in a season of death and humiliation, all of my cherished pieces of knowledge and understanding of apostolic and prophetic things came together, bringing coherence and cohesiveness to my understanding of the faith. When God inserted this key, it all came together.

In Amos 9:14, and elsewhere in Scripture, God says, I will restore the captivity of My people Israel[1], and they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them...For a long time I used to think that these Scriptures referred to the cities of antiquity, the ancient cities, but now I believe that God is referring to the present-day cities of Tel Aviv, Haifa, Jerusalem, etc. Jerusalem itself shall be built upon its own rubble ‘as unto the Lord,’ which its present building programs are not doing. But future, millennial Israel will be built ‘as unto the Lord.’ He will call them by a new name; He will give them a crown, and they will be a diadem in His hand, and they will be called the ministers of the Lord:In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you” (Zech. 8:23).It will be a nation of “Pauls” released to the nations, fulfilling what Paul said: For if their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead (Rom. 11:15).They will be a nation of priests, finally coming into their irrevocable call, and being to the nations what God intended for them from the first. It is the function of priests to teach the people the difference between the sacred and the profane. We need priests who will plead, teach and persuade, under the anointing of God, to save men from the wisdom of this world, and the things that disfigure mankind and rob them of reflecting God’s image. We have no idea how the world will be transfigured by the release of a nation of priests, and as we shall see, the Church is at the heart of that release in the wisdom and mystery of God.The author is sensibly aware that the contents of this book are not conducive to an easy, systematic exegesis of this mystery. The subject matter has been compiled and collated from spoken messages on a theme that is so all-encompassing and so interwoven with the great doctrines of the faith that one has rather to be apprehended by its message than to seek to rationally understand the divine intention. It is with this in view that I commend this first attempt at expressing this most holy mystery. Art KatzLaporte, MNUSADecember 2003[1] The present, political state of Israel is indeed, and in every way, the nation of prophecy, but not yet the nation of promise. This text anticipates the millennial restoration of Israel, and we need to understand the distinction.

Quote:" ... we need to understand the distinction."“There may be very serious differences in the exposition of the promises of His coming. To one it is plain as day that He is coming very speedily in person to reign on earth, and that speedy coming is his hope and his stay. To another, loving his Bible and his Saviour not less, the coming can mean nothing but the judgment day-the solemn transition from time to eternity, the close of history on earth, the beginning of heaven; and the thought of that manifestation of his Saviour's glory is no less his joy and his strength. It is Jesus, Jesus coming again, Jesus taking us to Himself, Jesus adored as Lord of all, that is to the whole Church the sum and the centre of its hope."It is by abiding in Christ the Glorified One that the believer will be quickened to that truly spiritual looking for His coming, which alone brings true blessing to the soul. There is an interest in the study of the things which are to be, in which the discipleship of a school is often more marked than the discipleship of Christ the meek; in which contendings for opinions and condemnation of brethren are more striking than any signs of the coming glory. It is only the humility that is willing to learn from those who may have other gifts and deeper revelations of the truth than we, and the love that always speaks gently and tenderly of those who see not as we do, and the heavenliness that shows that the Coming One is indeed already our life, that will persuade either the Church or the world that this our faith is not in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. To testify of the Saviour as the Coming One, we must be abiding in and bearing the image of Him as the Glorified One. Not the correctness of the views we hold, nor the earnestness with which we advocate them, will prepare us for meeting Him, but only the abiding in Him. Then only can our being manifested in glory with Him be what it is meant to be-a transfiguration, a breaking out and shining forth of the indwelling glory that had been waiting for the day of revelation.” --Andrew Murray

Introduction If the Church, particularly the Church of the Last Days, is indifferent to the theme and mystery of Israel, or rejects it, and chooses not to be an agent in its fulfillment, it loses its validity as Church. The issue of Israel and the Jew is the foremost and central factor of God’s end-time activity in the earth. The scriptures are full of references to this; for example, in Romans 11:25, the apostle Paul writes, “For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation [conceits],” and we need, therefore, to be alerted that there is something intended here for our consideration, the absence of which will condemn us to a much less glorious place in our earthly sojourn. That is the nature of the mystery in God’s own wisdom. We are not saying that the Church would cease to hold services and conferences, but it would disqualify itself as an apostolic[1] entity, and it is only as an apostolic entity that the predominantly Gentile Church can succeed in moving the Jew to jealousy in the Last Days.We need to understand that there is a controversy over Israel and the Church, where many say that the Church today is Israel, thereby dissolving the unique difference between the Church and Israel. This misconception robs God, therefore, of the glory that comes from the reciprocal relationship between the two. We need to be watchful of this tendency. In a sense, it is true that the Church has been grafted into Israel’s tree, and we have become, so to speak, the Israel of God. And yes, we have come into their commonwealth, but that does not mean that the Church is Israel. There is yet a distinct, national destiny for that nation, obtained primarily through the instrumentality of the Church at the end of the age, the obtaining of which, we believe, ushers in the Lord’s own Kingdom. If we blur these distinctions, we lose the glory of the reciprocal relationship between Israel and the Church. We have to be jealous over this unique God-given difference, or we will find ourselves, ironically, in opposition to God.

God’s jealousy for the Church does not eliminate the distinctiveness of Israel as a special nation. She has a yet unfulfilled and God-given call for a unique ministry in the world as a nation among nations. A promise was made to Abraham that “…in you [your seed] all the families of the earth shall be blessed” (Genesis 12:3f.). Israel has a purpose that yet remains to be fulfilled as a ‘kingdom of priests’ (Exodus 19:6) and a ‘light to the nations’ (Isaiah 42:6). Her strategic position is not confined to her past; nor has the Church absorbed it. It is a vast conceit and mistake of the Church to see Israel only as a ‘type’ or a ‘shadow,’ and itself exclusively as the substance. That is one of the conceits about which Paul warned us in Romans 11:25. We may often find rich sermon illustrations in Israel’s history, but that is not the primary purpose in God’s giving of those scriptures; we rob God of His literal meaning, and that is what many have blindly done. Many see God’s dealings with Israel only as instruction, and yet completely ignore the fact that she still has a future destiny as a nation.The Church desperately needs to see Israel and the Jew as God Himself perceives them, and not as we would desire to see them, which is too often from a sentimental perspective. We need to see the nation as the prophet Ezekiel had to see her, namely, in the ‘valley of dry bones’ (Ezek. 37). Every valley, as we know, is a place of depression, and if we do not have a stomach for the depressing, or unhappy aspect of truth, we will find ourselves necessarily cut off from any kind of redemptive use in God. We have got to see as God sees before we can speak as He speaks. In fact, as we shall see from the same Ezekiel 37 passage, our corporate speaking as the prophetic ‘son of man’ company, in the mystery of God, at the end of the age, is the whole issue of Israel’s salvation and her resurrection from the ‘dead.’ The nation, Israel, is moving toward that death even now, and does not understand the scenario that they themselves are fulfilling in their own apostasy and alienation from God.

The subject of Israel calls for everything we are in God: mind, body, spirit and soul, as Paul concludes in Romans 12:1-2, I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. If we are not yet persuaded that we are living in the Last Days, then this remarkable drama will persuade us. God’s dealing with Israel is the focus of His Last Days’ attention. It becomes, therefore, the issue of the Church, and actually separates, in a sense, the true Church from that which is essentially false. In other words, Israel becomes God’s ‘litmus test’ for the Church. The Church that is authentically true takes a stand for the Jew, for whom a Gentile should ordinarily have no natural affinity, especially in the face of peril and death. In fact, the mandate to the Jew cannot be performed on the basis of natural affinity, and that is the whole point. Sentimental and religious obligation, or whatever else presently motivates us to come to the aid of the Jew, will not suffice here, only the uttermost spiritual authenticity. Overflowing, true faith and true love of an abounding kind by the Church will be the requisite of God in our role toward that people. It will require an uttermost preparation because we are confronted with a mandate that is demanding to the uttermost. The outworking of this mystery is the concluding, historical act of God by which human history itself ends and the millennial age commences. Everything, as we see it, hinges on the whole issue of Israel’s restoration. And the remarkable thing is that the Church, which is God’s agent to restore them to their God, is predominantly a Gentile Church. That is to say, there is no natural reason why a Gentile should have any interest in this people, who, in their stubbornness, have given God all kinds of fits, and even to this day deport themselves in a way that does not honor God, but defames His name, even in the land of Israel. Yet their redemption is central to the purposes and wisdom of God! That is why Paul uses the word ‘mystery.’ It is something that has been concealed in times past, but is now being revealed, and which defies all rational understanding. It is as if God had gone out of His way to choose the most unlikely factors to succeed in His own coming as a King. He will first be King over that restored nation before the “law can go forth out of Zion and the word of the Lord out of Jerusalem” (Isa. 2:3) to all nations. And He will do it in a way that seems impossibly hopeless with an Israel who has no willingness to be chosen, a nation which has no apparent interest in fulfilling its own destiny; in fact, she does not even care to consider it (Is. 1:3 and Is. 42:24-25)! And the principal agent, in the wisdom of God, in bringing this about is a predominantly Gentile Church!

In Amos 9:14, and elsewhere in Scripture, God says,I will restore the captivity of My people Israel[1], and they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them...For a long time I used to think that these Scriptures referred to the cities of antiquity, the ancient cities, but now I believe that God is referring to the present-day cities of Tel Aviv, Haifa, Jerusalem, etc. Jerusalem itself shall be built upon its own rubble ‘as unto the Lord,’ which its present building programs are not doing. But future, millennial Israel will be built ‘as unto the Lord.’ He will call them by a new name; He will give them a crown, and they will be a diadem in His hand, and they will be called the ministers of the Lord:In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you” (Zech. 8:23).It will be a nation of “Pauls” released to the nations, fulfilling what Paul said:For if their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead (Rom. 11:15).Hi LarsCan you clarify what Art is saying here? If the rebuilt cities of Haifa etc are to be a 'nation of Paul's released to the nations' during the millennium, what will their gospel be? If the pretrib/premill dispensationalists are right and the church is raptured before this what will the 'evangelised' nations of the millennium be added to if the church has already been removed?As you know I am not this kind of dispensationalist but I am curious as to how Art fits all this into his eschatology.

God’s jealousy for the Church does not eliminate the distinctiveness of Israel as a special nation. She has a yet unfulfilled and God-given call for a unique ministry in the world as a nation among nations. A promise was made to Abraham that “…in you [your seed] all the families of the earth shall be blessed” (Genesis 12:3f.). Israel has a purpose that yet remains to be fulfilled as a ‘kingdom of priests’ (Exodus 19:6) and a ‘light to the nations’ (Isaiah 42:6).But Abraham's Seed is Christ and it is through Him that blessing has already spread to the nations.And the Covenant that made Israel a nation of priests was finalised at Calvary. The church is now the priestly nation. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (1Pe 2:9-10 KJV)and lest any should think this is restored Israel... this has to be a people that was not a people but are now the people of God...

It becomes, therefore, the issue of the Church, and actually separates, in a sense, the true Church from that which is essentially false. In other words, Israel becomes God’s ‘litmus test’ for the Church.Art, I love and respect you but this is outrageous; Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (2Ti 2:19 KJV)Do you have any idea how many people you are excluding from the 'true church' by this litmus test?

It is a remarkable divine strategy of God; and in order for it to succeed, the Church itself will become transfigured. The crisis of Israel constitutes the Church’s ultimate challenge, and compels the Church to a place of ultimacy in a way it would never otherwise have considered Him. The centrality of the Cross needs necessarily to be restored, along with the primacy of the Holy Spirit, the issue of true relationship of the saints, as also the issue of truth itself. The only explanation of a Church willing to embrace a calling so demanding as this is that the issue is not Israel alone, per se, but the glory of God that is obtained only through Israel’s redemption. Of all the things God could have chosen to promote His glory in the Last Days, He chooses the most untoward and difficult things, things that are so contrary to success, and He makes that His choice. The issue of Israel is really a great moral issue; it is a struggle between the Powers of darkness and God. Both reflect two diametrically opposed ‘wisdoms.’ God wants to exhibit something as a demonstration to the powers of the air for which He has “created all things in order that the manifold wisdom [reflecting the moral character] of God might now be made known through the Church to the rulers and the authorities [Principalities and Powers] in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Eph. 3:9f-11).

The election and destiny of Israel forms the context of God’s eternal purpose in Christ; it is His eternal mystery; it is the demonstration of His manifold wisdom, because it includes the willingness of Gentiles to extend themselves on behalf of the Jew! There is nothing natural about that; it is totally unnatural and unreasonable. We would hardly extend ourselves for our own flesh and blood; why should we extend ourselves for a people who have been a bane to us and an irritant, and an object of jealousy and resentment? The willingness to do that, at sacrifice, is the demonstration of the wisdom of God, and the ultimate evidence of the triumph of God in Gentiles whom He has taken off the dung heap to make to sit with princes! And if believing Gentiles will succeed in that, indeed, they will sit with princes, ruling and reigning with Christ, in the Millennium and eternally, from His throne! We are now at the threshold of the Last Days, and we are going to see such furies and conflicts, and such epochal movements of opposition, tugs and tensions that natural things will not sustain us. And that is why the Last Days are marked by ‘a great falling away.’ There is an apostasy in the Church that is even now taking place. What will it be when things become tough, when we open ourselves to opposition and persecution by virtue of our faith? The day will come when the anti-Christ spirit will be global, and believers will not be safe anywhere. How many of us will stand then? Do you see why it is so critical that our faith not rest on natural things, on pseudo-spiritual things and affected spiritualities where choruses or catch-phrases sustain us? We need to become increasingly authentic in God.

There is an urgent need to bring in something of prophetic quality to stir minds and hearts to bravery as to matters regarding Israel. The general lukewarmness and relativism in denominational realms will not do when the Lord is about to mobilize a testimony in days ahead which is to set standards for the non-Christian as well as for the Christian when it come to supporting the Holy Spirit in the work necessary leading to a substantial move unto repentance and conversion among the Jews and judgment in regards to anti-jewishness among the many.We are doing well being brave to begin thinking in terms substantiating the mind of Christ and from this bold position go against the tide and against the mind of the world regarding the Jew. This position holds a major challenge to the Church general. And the ones who dare go in the front line do well choosing a language which provokes. Prophetic candour and thereby prophetic offence will move those who are willing to a firm stand as watchmen on the wall, defending the eternal values tied to Zion and to the earthly Jerusalem.It is time to begin to pray for men to be positioned on the walls, in the gap, men who have secured priestliness as a precious possession and who are able to walk in a sacrificial attitude provoking both Jews, Gentiles and Christians to jealousy of what is contained in the salvation which is to be brought out from Zion. A leadership who have gathered spiritual understanding must come into position as a solid defence against shallow neglect, romanticism and outright hostility.We are all eager to listen to and learn from men like Mr. Katz, who has secured something of a Heavenly disposition in regards to this matter.Lars W.

The election and destiny of Israel forms the context of God’s eternal purpose in Christ; it is His eternal mystery; it is the demonstration of His manifold wisdom, because it includes the willingness of Gentiles to extend themselves on behalf of the Jew! There is nothing natural about that; it is totally unnatural and unreasonable. We would hardly extend ourselves for our own flesh and blood; why should we extend ourselves for a people who have been a bane to us and an irritant, and an object of jealousy and resentment? The willingness to do that, at sacrifice, is the demonstration of the wisdom of God, and the ultimate evidence of the triumph of God in Gentiles whom He has taken off the dung heap to make to sit with princes! And if believing Gentiles will succeed in that, indeed, they will sit with princes, ruling and reigning with Christ, in the Millennium and eternally, from His throne! I am sure that others are reading these postings as well as myself. Is no-one going to question these extraordinary statements? There are some long sentences here but if you work your way through them you will discover that 'Gentiles who extend themselves on behalf of the Jew will sit with princes, ruling and reigning with Christ.'An earlier posting had Art claiming that that support for his view of Israel was the defining attribute of being a member of the true church. Now we have a statement that reigning with Christ is to be determined by 'extending' ourselve towards the Jew.These are monstrous claims theologically. I find it difficult to think that anyone could believe them, but Art does and I must presume that Lars does as he has posted them. Come on saints, wake up, start to do some thinking and work out how many are to be excluded from the true church and how many are to be excluded from reigning with Christ if Art and Lars are right. Did Spurgeon share this view of Israel or or Fox or Tozer or Campbell Morgan? Did they 'extend' themselves towards the Jews? If not they are excluded from the true church on Art's theology and in spite of their amazing faithfulness and suffering will be denied the joy of ruling with Christ too.

These are monstrous claims theologically. I find it difficult to think that anyone could believe them, but Art does and I must presume that Lars does as he has posted them. Come on saints, wake up, start to do some thinking and work out how many are to be excluded from the true church and how many are to be excluded from reigning with Christ if Art and Lars are right. Did Spurgeon share this view of Israel or or Fox or Tozer or Campbell Morgan? Did they 'extend' themselves towards the Jews? If not they are excluded from the true church on Art's theology and in spite of their amazing faithfulness and suffering will be denied the joy of ruling with Christ tooI would have to answer back by saying that we are all responsible for the light that we receive. If circumstances did not allow these other men to see with clarity the issues which Art Katz has presented, which I'm utterly certain they did not, they will answer to God for the truth they know only. We are in a different position than many of those men as we are on the backside of a lot of history and research and understanding. Will we hold the truth in unrighteousness, or will we rightly respond to revelation? There has been a tremendous anti-semetic tone to the writings of many people I admire from the past. Even Matthew Henry makes comments at times that make my skin crawl- but I chock it up as ignorance. I am certain that a careful look at why there are so FEW Jewish believers in the Church today, relative to the first century, ought to shock all of us to the core. It is absolutely a travesty and a disaster. And as we espouse doctrines and attitudes of our fathers that caused much of this we implicate ourselves in that we are doing the deeds of our fathers. Certainly we will not be punished for our father's sins and perhaps cannot confess or apologize for them - but can we not forsake them and adopt a biblical attitude towards reaching the Jews with the Gospel who were faithful to reach the Gentiles? Have we returned the favor? Nay- and in no wise! What if Paul had acted as this in reaching the Gentiles? Why has the church not magnified its office to reach the Jews? We would all had been damned if Paul had taken the attitude towards the Gentiles that I see towards the Jews these 2000 years. The Church has shrugged off their responsibility to reach these people long enough- the time is at hand! How much longer will the grafted in branches boast against those that have been broken off? Will we not fear? How long until God is fed up and says- I likewise shall not spare thee!?As the Church (especially in the West) moves more and more away from God- how long shall He spare? Modern "Church growth" movements that are apostate maximus and a host of pastors and leaders who refuse to allow God to speak and be known in the Church- are begging God to "not spare thee." We as a whole are in a vile mess and if ever there was a time to Consider what Paul wrote in Romans 11 it is now. Art Katz is very right in saying that we in no way as the Church are provoking anyone to Christ (Jew or Gentile). In my opinion we are manufacturing Atheists we have so misrepresented the reality of God. How long will God dig around and dung this deadness? I have to agree with George Fox when he taught that its not if you can go to the scripture and prove something as to whether or not it is true- but rather, what is the witness of the Holy Ghost? The Pharisee's could prove false doctrine from scripture- but where was the power? Where was the finger of God? Its all subjective anyway as is proven by the literal thousands of books on doctrines. If I can go to the scripture and convincingly prove one thing and someone else equally prove the opposite- is it not subjective? Who is the final arbitrator of truth- is He not the Holy Spirit? What is the Spirit saying unto the Churches? Is He saying neglect the Jews cause their rejected? The Jews don't even recognize the Christ we portray. There are statues of Christ and Mary in which the baby is uncircumcised and all sorts of devilish madness. I'm going to do what I can to reach them as God makes opportunity. I'm going to continue to support and bless them as I am able. I live within walking distance of Harry S. Truman's home. Every time I pass by his house I feel a sense of God's working in the earth through that man to aid in the acknowledgment of Israel. I will never believe God was not part of the rebirth of that nation. A thousand tractates would not convince me of it. Do a study of the multiplied miracles that are involved in it. A basic encyclopedia will give you enough info to get started. Leonard Ravinhill once stated that you can write America off the day she stops supporting Israel (paraphrased). I believe that to the core. Make no mistake- God is working in that nation and people. I believe I will see much of it before my time expires. :-)God Bless,-Robert

I would have to answer back by saying that we are all responsible for the light that we receive. If circumstances did not allow these other men to see with clarity the issues which Art Katz has presented, which I'm utterly certain they did not, they will answer to God for the truth they know only.But this isn't what Art is saying. He is saying that now the true church litmus test is a particular view of eschatology; his.The Church has shrugged off their responsibility to reach these people long enough- the time is at hand! How much longer will the grafted in branches boast against those that have been broken off? Will we not fear? How long until God is fed up and says- I likewise shall not spare thee!?Paul's admonition is not to the church; it is to 'thee' [11:24] and the 'thee' is emphasised in the Greek. This is not a blanket condemnation of the whole church as you imply but an admonition to any individual who 'boasts' himself against historical Israel. I reject your condemnation of the whole church in this way. Who do you think you are to blanket condemn whole generations and continents of Christians who have been faithful to death but don't happen to share your eschatology? BTW God never gets 'fed up'; He sets limits but never runs out of patience.I have to agree with George Fox when he taught that its not if you can go to the scripture and prove something as to whether or not it is true- but rather, what is the witness of the Holy Ghost? So do you know what the Spirit witnessed to George Fox about Israel? and what if it is different to both you and me, then where do we go? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 KJV) To set your witness against another's in this way is foolishness.The plain fact is that there is no biblical support for the statement that Art's view of eschatology determines the members of the true church and neither is there biblical evidence to support his view that only those who have 'extended to the Jew' will share the 'millennial rule'. This is extra-biblical revelation and I reject it. I hope others will do the same for the same reasons.

I reject your condemnation of the whole church in this way. Who do you think you are to blanket condemn whole generations and continents of Christians who have been faithful to death but don't happen to share your eschatology? BTW God never gets 'fed up'; He sets limits but never runs out of patience.Hi Bro. Ron,This is a strange thing, I was reading even last night more madness of certain members of influence of the historical Church and it is only fueling my fear for them. They are the ones who have set the tone through their teachings and influence throughout the centuries. They will give an account I am sure of it. How much more heritical can a teaching be than to say that God has rejected a people that His word clearly says the opposite- and then try to dance out of the topic and spin it around until the word is made to say the opposite of what is said (i.e. Romans 11:1). Has God cast away His people? Gk. may which is translated in the AV generally as not and sometimes as no. In the KJV it is God Forbid! Yet get commentary after commentary and read "God rejected the Jews." Some such as Wycliff at least will make a distinction and say "national Israel." Yet we read "God has accepted the Gentiles." Hmmm. Has He really? How many Gentiles are saved? I admire anyone who gave their life for Christ and have done a good deal of time studying John Fox and even some of the Martys Mirror and other works; but let us recall the words of Paul- "Though I gave my body to be burned and have not charity it profits me nothing." What does it profit to give my body to be burned and not feel a deep seated desire to see souls saved to the Jew first and also to the Greek? If we don't love a person enough to desire their salvation- what is the substance of our love? Many will speak in that day of their wonderful works (acts of dunamis)- yet the Lord will say, "I never knew you." Only God knows what shall come of all these people and I hope that they are all saved. But I'm not going to condone their rhetoric for a second seeing from the time of Justin Martyr to this day we have seen the Nazarenes numbers all but wiped out- and much of it was because of the Churches "de-Judaizing." Did God expect the Gentiles to tell the Jews and make laws that the Jews had to essentially become like Gentiles to be saved? That they could not circumcize their children, etc. Did God expect the Jews to utterly forsake their identity as Jews? No He did not- and the exact opposite is clear from Acts 15. The Jews were not to compel the Gentiles to live as they did- yet why has so many generations expected the Jews to live as do the Gentiles now that the Church is essentially in the hands of the Gentiles? Where was OUR Acts 15 counsel meeting? We never bothered with one. The Jews certainly share their end of the blame for why there are such a low percentage of Jews who believe today as compared to the 1st Century which I have chronicled in part in Jewish Roots. Katz has even taken the bold step of suggesting that the holocaust was a continuation of God's divine dealings with Israel. Who do you think you are to blanket condemn whole generations and continents of Christians who have been faithful to death but don't happen to share your eschatology?If what has happened in the Church, especially since Nicea, has not been a wholesale boasting against the broken branches I don't know what Paul could have meant. With the pograms, inquisition, crusades, anti-Judaizing edicts, and the like, I suppose that may not be defined a boasting. The Lord knows if or if not. Yet, I know this much, I'm not building their sepluchers in the matter. shall I praise them in this, I praise them not. I'm not partaking of what they have done. I will confess it as sin and renounce the behavior. I will do what I can to repair some of the damage with the Lord's help. **** Some Interesting Quotes From Various Church Fathers *****Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (98-117A.D.) – Epistle to the MagnesiansFor if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God’s favor…it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity. "Epistle of Barnabas" Chapter 4vs 6-7 (between 130A.D. and 138 A.D.)Take heed to yourselves and be not like some piling up you sins and saying that the covenant is theirs as well as ours. It is ours, but they lost it completely just after Moses received it. Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho (Between 138A.D. and 161 A.D.)We too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days, and in a word, all you festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely, because of your sins and the hardness of heart. The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark. Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) – A ecclesiastical writer and teacher who contributed to the early formation of Christian doctrines.We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human race…hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election. John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D.) – One of the "greatest" of church fathers; known as "The Golden Mouthed." A missionary preacher famous for his sermons and addresses.The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.From "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" by Malcolm Hay St. Augustine (c. 354-430 A.D.), Confessions, 12.14How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you!  Peter the Venerable – known as "the meekest of men, a model of Christian charity"Yes, you Jews. I say, do I address you; you, who till this very day, deny the Son of God. How long, poor wretches, will ye not believe the truth? Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human… I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men. From "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" by Malcolm Hay Martin Luther – 1543On The Jews and Their LiesWhat then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we can not tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy. In this way we cannot quench the inextinguishable fire of divine rage nor convert the Jews. We must prayerfully and reverentially practice a merciful severity. Perhaps we may save a few from the fire and flames [of hell]. We must not seek vengeance. They are surely being punished a thousand times more than we might wish them. Let me give you my honest advice.First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians, and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians.Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things there that they do in their synagogues. For this reason they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like gypsies, in order that they may realize that they are not masters in our land, as they boast, but miserable captives, as they complain of incessantly before God with bitter wailing.Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught.Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like. Let them stay at home...If you princes and nobles do not close the road legally to such exploiters, then some troop ought to ride against them, for they will learn from this pamphlet what the Jews are and how to handle them and that they ought not to be protected. You ought not, you cannot protect them, unless in the eyes of God you want to share all their abomination...To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews...Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew. When you lay eyes on or think of a Jew you must say to yourself: Alas, that mouth which I there behold has cursed and execrated and maligned every Saturday my dear Lord Jesus Christ, who has redeemed me with his precious blood; in addition, it prayed and pleaded before God that I, my wife and children, and all Christians might be stabbed to death and perish miserably. And he himself would gladly do this if he were able, in order to appropriate our goods...Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune.I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnapped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnapping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil, who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason, I would like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christians endure from these venomous serpents and young devils...next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers.Translated by Martin H. Bertram, "On The Jews and Their Lies, Luther's Works, Volume 47"; Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971. Martin Luther - 1543Of The Unknowable Name and The Generations of ChristBut your [God’s] judgment is right, justus es Dominie. Yes, so shall Jews, but no one else be punished, who held your word and miracles in contempt and ridiculed, insulted and damned it for such a long time without interruption, so that they will not fall, like other humans, heathens and all the others, into sin and death, not up in Hell, nor in the middle of Hell but in the pit of Hell, as one cannot fall deeper...Even if they were punished in the most gruesome manner that the streets ran with their blood, that their dead would be counted, not in the hundred thousands, but in the millions, as happened under Vespasian in Jerusalem and for evil under Hadrian, still they must insist on being right even if after these 1,500 years they were in misery another 1,500 years, still God must be a liar and they must be correct. In sum, they are the devil’s children, damned to Hell...The Jews too got what they deserved. They had been called and elected to be God’s mouth as Jeremiah says...Open your mouth wide and I will fill it; they however, kept tightly closed their muzzles, eyes, ears, nose, whole heart and all senses, so he polluted and squirted them so full that it oozes from them in all places and devil’s filth comes from them.Yes, that tastes good to them, into their hearts, they smack their lips like swine. That is how they want it. Call more: ‘Crucify him, crucify him.’ Scream more: ‘His blood come upon us and our children.’ (Matthew 27:25) I mean it came and found you...Perhaps, one of the merciful Saints among us Christians may think I am behaving too crude and disdainfully against the poor, miserable Jews in that I deal with them so sarcastically and insulting. But, good God, I am much too mild in insulting such devils… John CalvinA Response To Questions and Objections of a Certain JewTheir [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.Excerpt from "Ad Quaelstiones et Objecta Juaei Cuiusdam Responsio," by John Calvin; The Jew in Christian Theology, Gerhard Falk, McFarland and Company, Inc., Jefferson, NC and London, 1931.***Notes***Quote Taken from http://www.yashanet.com/library/fathers.htm"Our Hands Are Stained With Blood" Dr. Michael Brown (This book was endorsed by Leonard Ravinhill see back cover)

How much more heritical can a teaching be than to say that God has rejected a people that His word clearly says the opposite- and then try to dance out of the topic and spin it around until the word is made to say the opposite of what is said (i.e. Romans 11:1). Has God cast away His people?Hi Robert This is a straw man, set up to be knocked down. I hope you are not suggesting that this is my position. Instead of endless lists of Christendom's atrocities why don't you tell me whether or not you believe with Art that the litmus test of the true church is a particular eschatology and whether or not you agree with him that ruling with Christ is dependent upon whether or not we have 'extended ourselves to the Jew'?Straightforward question, I think. Time for your straightforward answer.

I'll answer yours if you'll answer one for me. :-)I cannot agree with that statement of Art's wholly because some have no opportunity to reach a Jew. I'm not sure I would even be able to tackle the eschatalogical ramifications of such a thought because I am not versed enough in the subject(s) to give a good well reasoned answer. You are more in a position to answer it than I and I believe you have clearly shown a dislike for the theology. Yet I would only say that I am used to hearing Messianic Jews make some pretty strong claims in all kinds of directions. I left off trying to correct when I was in the middle of it all in class. I let them believe and state their position and- proved all things and held fast to that which was good. That's why you read my tractates saying I can't agree with my own Professor's (Ron Moseley and even Marvin Wilson's) position on the Mishnah and Talmud. I don't have to agree with Katz on this subject. i believe that the overall spirit of what he is saying is true when he compells the Gentiles to provoke both Jew and Gentile to Christ through their lives. I could disagree with him on that one topic and keep listening. I used to couldn't- but I am tired of drawing swords over this type of stuff. Same goes with pretrib and all that. We will know soon enough. My question is simply:-)Should we not do what we can when we have opportunity to reach the Jews in a way that they will have a legitimate chance to accept or reject their Messiah in our generation understanding that the Church (for whatever reason) in times past has not treated them favorably and that acknowledgments of these things may be necessary?Ultimately- that is all I am and have been saying.God Bless! -Robert

Hi Robertsimple question...Should we not do what we can when we have opportunity to reach the Jews in a way that they will have a legitimate chance to accept or reject their Messiah in our generation understanding that the Church (for whatever reason) in times past has not treated them favorably and that acknowledgments of these things may be necessary?simply answer... Yes.more complication/comprehensive answer. I don't think we can burden the latest convert with 2000 years of christendom's guilt. But we should certainly seek their good in every way possible without jeopardizing the good of any other ethnic group. re Art's position. I was pretty sure you didn't hold it even though you have strong sympathy with his general position. Some 10 years ago Art visited our church here in the UK. He was his usual honest, wysiwyg, self, but he informed a room full of complete strangers that if we didn't establish a specific Jewish evangelism in the church God would close us down. This is perfectly compatible with his views posted here by Lars. WE could not be a 'true church' without this litmus test. I don't know anyone else who is this extreme and I think it should be bourne in mind by those who read/listen to his ministry.

I don't think we can burden the latest convert with 2000 years of christendom's guilt.Amen.I don't know anyone else who is this extreme and I think it should be bourne in mind by those who read/listen to his ministry.I have heard some rather radical positions that paint the Church in an almost pagan light- to the point to where in some contexts I would not tell someone I had a Christmas tree in my house. Some of the points are legit- others are out there a bit. i have gotten a bit red-faced a time or two, but overall I was in agreement with the basic emphasis of trying to reach the Jews for Christ. I've seen men storm out of classes and all kinds of crazy stuff. Sort of like in acts when it says and there was not small dispute. :-) I think it's merely a tactic to try to balance the scales. Sometimes things are way out of balance and then we see extremes trying to make a correcting and we overcorrect. Thats how accidents happen. I hope I have tried to be balanced in a way that would please the Lord.God Bless,-Robert