End time tribulation and revival

There is not a clear evidence from the bible that believers will be raptured with the Lord in the air before the great tribulation and before antichrist will rule the world for a short time.
What if secret pre-tribulation rapture teaching is just an assumption with no biblical foundation or historical support especially from early church fathers? I think many believers will be unprepared when persecution and great tribulation will come like a thief in the night.

Great post. I believe the "wrath of God" will not be poured out on those who are His! This is known as a "pre-wrath" position. The great tribulation starts in the last 3.5 years of that 7 year period. So at the most the "rapture" could happen before that 3.5 years ie already when the antichrist has made himself known.

But also a more likely viewpoint is when Christ comes back for the second time he will pour out His wrath then and also at the same time rapture His Church.

The conclusion in my mind is we don't know definitely but what we do know is we will be saved from God's wrath but be given "grace" to endure the wrath of men and the devil.

Let's be prepared and be living holy lives looking forward to His return!

What did they come out of?

Rev:7:9 "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“ Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me,

“Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, “Sir,[b] you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who COME OUT of The Great Tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." 15

If they came out,is it not logical that they had to go in?

"Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters.[c] And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes"

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Is not the beast the antichrist? How were the redeemed thus martyred, if not in the very same "Great tribulation?"

I too used too believed in the pre-tribulation teaching

I envision God shaking His head back and forth in an "I can't believe how misconstrued that is"

What difference does it make whether we're called up pre-trib or post-trib?

What if what we were taught about a "Rapture" will not take place as how we perceive it to be?

We have to remember something. When Jesus came, the people thought that the Messiah was going to come like a military General to wipe out the occupation of Rome and the land be restored to Israel and the kingdom of God would be ushered in. That was the mindset of the day because that is how they interpreted the scriptures to mean. But when Jesus came, they were sorely disappointed. He certainly did fulfil all the scriptures that concerned Him, the Kingdom of God did come in the hearts of men, but it wasn't a physical act that men could see with eyes. It was a spiritual act of God.

When you read the New Testament, all the writers agreed that they were living in the last days, the majority of Christians throw their words into our future because history doesn't mention any cataclysmic events surrounding the sun being darkened and the moon not giving her light and the stars of the heaven shall fall etc.. But just what if we got it all wrong. What if what Jesus spoke of were pictures of something else?

In the Old Testament, those same words that Jesus spoke of concerning the sun moon and the stars were spoken by the prophets concerning Babylon or Egypt's demise. It was the signal that the super power that they once were was to be darkened and another super power would be the one to be the governing power of the day.

When Joseph had his dream about the sun the moon and the stars bowing down to him, Jacob rebuked him and said, "shall I (sun) and your mother(moon) and your brethren(stars) shall bow down and worship you?" (emphasis mine) So I don't take what Jesus said concerning the literal sun to die out, the Old Testament is there to show us something else that He wants us to see.

We don't want to waste our time teaching something that doesn't exist in scripture. Think on these lines, consider my words carefully in the light of the word of God.

Dear Deepthinker:

When Christ comes again, at the end of the Tribulation, at His second coming, He comes WITH His Saints. He doesn’t come to earth WITH THE SOULS OF HIS DEAD SAINTS IN HEAVEN, and call for the BODIES of the dead in Christ first, and then call those that are saved and alive on the earth second, and then go back into heaven, and then re-enter the earth again with His Saints.

[b][color=990000]I realize that everyone who has posted on this thread does not believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. When responding to my post, please use SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT YOUR POSITION of a Mid-Tribulation Or End of Tribulation Rapture.[/color][/b]

I have just finished a personal Bible study on the resurrection, and the Bema judgments for Christians:

Christ is the firstfruits of the Resurrection.
1 Cor 15:20-23
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

We (believers) are the firstfruits of the Spirit, that will receive our new resurrected bodies when he comes to get us at the rapture, as described above, and we will be like Him! The rapture takes place before the Tribulation and the “Day of the Lord”.

Romans 8:23-25
23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25. But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

When we receive our new resurrected bodies, we will be like Him!

James 1:18
18. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures

This is another description of the Rapture and the receipt of our new resurrected bodies:

1 Cor 15:52-57
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is another description of the Rapture.
1 Thes 4:13-17
13. But I would not have you to be IGNORANT, brethren (because they were), concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[b]This passage describes what will happen when Christ comes back to redeem us to Himself. We will be perfect like Him in all ways! [/b]

1 Cor. 13:9-12
9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

1 John 3:2
2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

[b]Next, we find a description of the Lord'S SECOND COMING-- coming back to the earth WITH HIS SAINTS (that would be the resurrected Church, described above, from the RAPTURE). . This clarifies for us that there is more than one resurrection (Firstfruits of the Resurrection). First, the rapture and resurrection, that occurs before anit-christ is revealed, described above, and then another resurrection of the souls of those that have become believers during the Tribulation, that have been be-headed by the antichrist, AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION:[/b]

Zechariah 14
1. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:[b][color=990000] and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.[/color][/b]6.And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7.But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[b]This describes the rapture of the people that were not saved before the Tribulation (Jews and Gentiles), that went through the Great Tribulation and became believers in Christ (saved) and were beheaded during the tribulation. At the end of the Tribulation Christ throws Satan into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years and judges the beheaded believers (described above). This is a judgment of rewards, not punishment. The judgment of punishment is the Great White Throne Judgment mentioned in Rev. 20:11 and is for all non-believers.[/b]

Rev 20:1-6
1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5.[b] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [/b] 6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

[b]Saints---Our belief in the Rapture is just as certain, just as sure, as our belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ![/b]

In 1 Thess 4:14 Paul equates belief of the Rapture is just as certain as belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Sincerley,

Walter

DeepThinker wrote:

I envision God shaking His head back and forth in an "I can't believe how misconstrued that is"

There is a lot of truth in that statement. Bible prophecy is so misconstrued that people have no idea if what they believe is even in the bible. Most people look at what is going on in the world than what the bible has already said about said events.

What difference does it make whether we're called up pre-trib or post-trib?

Actually Wendy there is. Just what if there is no such a thing as a future "Great Tribulation"?

What if what we were taught about a "Rapture" will not take place as how we perceive it to be?

We have to remember something. When Jesus came, the people thought that the Messiah was going to come like a military General to wipe out the occupation of Rome and the land be restored to Israel and the kingdom of God would be ushered in. That was the mindset of the day because that is how they interpreted the scriptures to mean. But when Jesus came, they were sorely disappointed. He certainly did fulfil all the scriptures that concerned Him, the Kingdom of God did come in the hearts of men, but it wasn't a physical act that men could see with eyes. It was a spiritual act of God.

DELETED

Anonymity Posted

[b]
As for your argument I always thought that those saints were angels that were coming with Christ as they are his army and bear swords. The word used there in the greek is the same used for angels.[/b]

Walters response:

[color=990000]I disagree, 100%[/color]

Websters 1828 Dictionary of the English Language is a great Dictionary to use when trying to find understanding and meaning of Scripture:

[b]SAINT, n. [L. sanctus.]
1. A person sanctified; a holy or godly person; one eminent for piety and virtue. It is particularly applied to the apostles and other holy persons mentioned in Scripture. A hypocrite may imitate a saint. Ps. 16.
2. One of the blessed in heaven. Rev. 18.
3. The holy angels are called saint. Deut. 33. Jude 14.
4. One canonized by the church of Rome.[/b]

Also, Eastons Bible Dictionary is helpful as well:
Saint - one separated from the world and consecrated to God; one holy by profession and by covenant;[b] a believer in Christ (Ps. 16:3; Rom. 1:7; 8:27; Phil. 1:1; Heb. 6:10).[/b]
The "saints" spoken of in Jude 1:14 are probably not the disciples of Christ, but the "innumerable company of angels" (Heb. 12:22; Ps. 68:17), with reference to Deut. 33:2.
This word is also used of the holy dead (Matt. 27:52; Rev. 18:24). It was not used as a distinctive title of the apostles and evangelists and of a "spiritual nobility" till the fourth century. In that sense it is not a scriptural title.

Also, Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words is helpful.
[b]In the New Testament the Greek word hagios (literally meaning 'Holy') is used of God's people and is translated as 'saints' meaning 'holy ones.' This really means to be 'set apart' and the holiness of the saints is then the conduct expected of those who are separated or set apart unto God.

"In the plural, as used of believers, it designates all such and is not appled to persons of exceptional holiness, or to those who, having died, were characterized by exceptional acts of "saintliness." See especially 2Thess. 1:10, where "His saints" are also described as "them that believed," i.e. the whole number of the redeemed." [/b]

Also, if we open our Bibles, turn to 2 Thes 1:10:

10. When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The word saint seems to agree in the Hebrew and Greek, so, in the Greek the root word is hagos, an awful thing, or a thing full of awe as the word awful was used in the original English intent. It means purified ceremonially, holy, consecrated. was used in the original English intent. [b]It means purified ceremonially, holy, consecrated.[/b]

Anonymity posted

[b]I do not think though that such specifications need to be delved into. I mean any scriptures can be argued over just as the Watchtowerites. There are always hard scriptures that can be isolated and twisted and with that and a spirit of stupor the odds are against apologists. So, in light of all this I wont spend a great deal of time going point by point, but I will stick to what is simple and clear.[/b]

[b]Walter's response[/b]

I surely do not agree with you. Please take the time, and read my entire post, and then [b]respond with Scripture where you disagree (like I did above, when you stated that only the Angels in Heaven are considered to be Saints).[/b] There are no tricks here, no Jehovahs Witness deceit and error, only Scripture and years of study and reading God’s Word.

Anonymity posted

[b]The scriptures overwhelmingly teach that there is a post tribulation rapture or that the rapture will not come until we are faithful to the end all the way til Christ comes. Also, no one is denying that there will be a rapture only the timing of it.[/b]

Walter’s response:

[color=990000]I totally disagree with your statement, 100%. Prove the above statement with Scripture, line by line and verse by verse. Prove your statement that “The scriptures overwhelmingly teach that there is a post tribulation rapture or that the rapture will not come until we are faithful to the end all the way til Christ comes”[/color]

Anonymity posted

[b]So the question is not this or that. The question is are there clear and solid scripture teaching post or pre. As for the pre stance there are no clear verses. All arguments are based on verse that may seem to teach this or that or are based on a building argument like the one you laid out. For instance not a clear verse saying THE RAPTURE WILL BE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION but instead we will not be under Gods wrath THEREFORE it can not be. [/b]

Walter’s response:

[color=990000]I totally DISAGREE again, 100%. The believer is told that he has already, past tense, escaped the wrath to come.[/color]

1 Thessalonians 1:10
10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

However, the God hating, Christ rejecting Pharisees were told this by Christ:
(Matthew 3:7)
7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

(Luke 3:7)
7.\tThen said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

[color=990000]So to clarify the issue, those that are saved are assured that they will escape the wrath to come (the Tribulation). All of the non-saved, God hating, Christ hating Jews, as well as others that hate God & Christ will go through the Tribulation, and are told that they will have to[u] flee the wrath to come,[/u] if they can, during the Tribulation.[/color]

Anonymity said:

[b]On the other hand for the post there are clear verses that are very straight forward and say THE RAPTURE WILL BE AFTER THE TRIBUATION yes.. that clearly. Here is one for instance:

Mar 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,
Mar 13:25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Walter responds:

[color=990000][b]I totally disagree, 100%. You are confused.

Specifically:
What you have quoted above is a description of the 2nd Coming, not the Rapture. The 2nd coming is at the end of the Tribulation, when Christ comes with His Saints (not for His Saints).[/color][/b]

Zechariah 14 describes this event:

5.And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come,[color=990000] and all the saints with thee.[/color] 6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

What does term “The Day of the Lord” mean?

The New Testament calls it a day of “wrath,” a day of “visitation,” and the “great day of God Almighty” (Revelation 16:4) and refers to a still future fulfillment when God’s wrath is poured out on unbelieving Israel (Isaiah 22; Jeremiah 30:1-17; Joel 1-2; Amos 5; Zephaniah 1) and on the unbelieving world (Ezekiel 38–39; Zechariah 14). The Scriptures indicate that “the day of the Lord” will come quickly, like a thief in the night (Zephaniah 1:14-15; 2 Thessalonians 2:2), and therefore Christians must be watchful and ready for the coming of Christ at any moment.

Besides being a time of judgment, it will also be a time of salvation as God will deliver the remnant of Israel, fulfilling His promise that “all of Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26), forgiving their sins and restoring His chosen people to the land He promised to Abraham (Isaiah 10:27; Jeremiah 30:19-31, 40; Micah 4; Zechariah 13). The final outcome of the day of the Lord will be that “the arrogance of man will be brought low and the pride of men humbled; the Lord alone will be exalted in that day” (Isaiah 2:17). The ultimate or final fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the day of the Lord will come at the end of history when God, with wondrous power, will punish evil and fulfill all His promises.

[b]Also, other Scriptures in God's word describe the Day of the Lord, and the second coming of Christ (not the Rapture):

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12; Col 3:4-6; Isaiah 2:12-21; Isaiah 13:6-16; Isaiah 34:1-8; Joel 1:15-2:11; Joel 2:28-32; Joel 3:9-12; Amos 5:18-20; Obadiah 1:15-17; Zeph 1:7-18; Jeremiah 46:10; Ezekiel 38 & Ezekiel 39; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5.[/b]

Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:3 describes the peace treaty imposed on Israel 3 ½ years before the 2nd Coming, at the end of Tribulation

In the future, please provide Scripture when you make statements and conclusions. Without Scripture to support your views and opinions, they are of no value.

God bless,

Walter

anonymity wrote:
Waltern,

I wonder if you have sought God hard in these topics or books hard. These things must be revealed as every small thing in our life as it was with Daniel in that he prayed and fasted until it was revealed to him. There is surely a spirit of stupor among other biases and whatnot like tradition and denominations that lead people to hold to such thing against such things which are so clear.

As for you argument I always thought that those saints were angels that were coming with Christ as they are his army and bear swords. The word used there in the greek is the same used for angels.

I do not think though that such specifications need to be delved into. I mean any scriptures can be argued over just as the Watchtowerites. There are always hard scriptures that can be isolated and twisted and with that and a spirit of stupor the odds are against apologists. So, in light of all this I wont spend a great deal of time going point by point, but I will stick to what is simple and clear.

The scriptures overwhelmingly teach that there is a post tribulation rapture or that the rapture will not come until we are faithful to the end all the way til Christ comes. Also, no one is denying that there will be a rapture only the timing of it.

So the question is not this or that. The question is are there clear and solid scripture teaching post or pre. As for the pre stance there are no clear verses. All arguments are based on verse that may seem to teach this or that or are based on a building argument like the one you laid out. For instance not a clear verse saying THE RAPTURE WILL BE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION but instead we will not be under Gods wrath THEREFORE it can not be. On the other hand for the post there are clear verses that are very straight forward and say THE RAPTURE WILL BE AFTER THE TRIBUATION yes.. that clearly. Here is one for instance:

Mar 13:24 "But in those days, [b]after that tribulation[/b], the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,
Mar 13:25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And [b]then[/b] they will [b]see the Son of Man coming in clouds[/b] with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And [b]then[/b] he will send out the angels and [b]gather his elect[/b] from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

I think that one reason that this topic is passionate, is that everyone senses that we are close to the events foretold in Revelation, especially. Even the unbelievers today know that things are fragile, and realize that mutual annihilation is a possibility. Who would have thought 50 years ago that Islam could ever rise to be a threat to the west?; but they have.

Who could have imagined the Tsunami of False teachers and corrupt doctrines that MILLIONS now believe as the Gospel?; or the corresponding flood of global immorality, socialistic Humanism..[ abortion ] and arrogant materialism.

One thing that 9/11 did, is shake the myth of American invulnerability, , and we have been backsliding ever since. The bible says that men's hearts will fail because of FEAR! Will yours?

For those of you who hold to the Pre-tribulation rapture; would you not agree that someone is going in there?, and scripture states that it will be multitudes; a number that men cannot count due to it's enormity? These came out of it, without a doubt.

Remember the hymn, "When the saints go marching in?" These are those. They get to have dinner with the Lord. It's our marriage day.

I am not looking forward to hardship, nor suffering, but I'm certainly looking forward to dinner. Is God faithful? Has He ever forsaken any one who has put their trust in Him? This time is also called a trial for the whole Earth. Remember, the Harvest is the end of the age, and is essentially a time of separation, of division, between good and evil, WHEAT and poison TARES. There will be a mark of some kind, and there will be martyrs who refuse it, who are with God, yet crying out, "HOW LONG?" Well, you must admit that they must be Christian anyhow. I personally think that this could be militant Islam, in the end, that administers this judgment upon the unsubmissive.

Hebrews 11 was written as more than an historical tribute, I believe. It is a model, a remnant REALITY as it has always been...[ China today..] We too will be given the honor to prove the reality of our faith. It is a trial, and every Apostle lived by it, and died by it. It is the time of the 10 virgins. Oil is Holy Spirit filled Faith. This will enlighten a path for us all, if we believe and trust.