Why did Mark Driscoll's Church grow so much?...(also to anyone whos actually been a regular there)

A

anonymity Jul 16, 2009

I am interested and inquisitive. I am looking for objective answers from those who know more then me on the subject and hopefully a good deal. Opinions would be good as well as sort of taking a poll here to see what the saints are saying. Is it because he was: in a densely populated city, in a dark area that did not have breakthrough in a while, a well rounded ministry that is very good, a lot of calvinist looking for somewhere reformed to go, so hip and cool that people were drawn to him, spiritual revival, a little growth made it "popular" and then the numbers really mounted, preaches hard and a lot of fruit comes from it, has a charismatic personality, his emerging ideologies made him more personably relatable and he knew how people thought and people liked that, the emphasis was on young people so naturally it took off, just been laboring for years faithfully and fruit is coming, cool music and videos and other things in the media and arts, or something else or a mix of things?

I

intrcssr83 Jul 16, 2009

by anonymity on 2009/7/16 14:42:23
I am interested and inquisitive. I am looking for objective answers from those who know more then me on the subject and hopefully a good deal. Opinions would be good as well as sort of taking a poll here to see what the saints are saying. Is it because he was: in a densely populated city, in a dark area that did not have breakthrough in a while, a well rounded ministry that is very good, a lot of calvinist looking for somewhere reformed to go, so hip and cool that people were drawn to him, spiritual revival, a little growth made it "popular" and then the numbers really mounted, preaches hard and a lot of fruit comes from it, has a charismatic personality, his emerging ideologies made him more personably relatable and he knew how people thought and people liked that, the emphasis was on young people so naturally it took off, just been laboring for years faithfully and fruit is coming, cool music and videos and other things in the media and arts, or something else or a mix of things?

I've actually had the priveledge of meeting Mark Driscoll in person when he came to Brisbane for a conference. You are more than welcome to read my ~~[url=http://prayer-warrior83.xanga.com/672237978/8220all-things-to-all-men-by-all-means8221/]~~notes[/url] and comment :).

I also recommend you read his autobiography ~~[i]~~Confessions of a Reformission Rev[/i] that outlines his journey as a pastor. I have to say, it's not for the feint-hearted as he describes in great detail the "blood, sweat and tears" he expended personally to get to where he is while not making the serious compromises that a lot of western megachurches are known for.

sermonindex Jul 16, 2009

This is a well written, seemingly unbiased article on Driscoll below:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/magazine/11punk-t.html

It seems that he is a Neo-Calvinist champion, of the very extreme type. His once saved always saved theology has morphed into extreme permissiveness, where he preaches a part Bible, all flesh theology where almost anything goes. His church in Seattle has become the melting pot of thousands of second generation Grunge youth who are attracted to a Gospel of the unrepentant, while maintaining their culture, friends and their involvement and love of the world.

He often cusses, speaks of immorality in open terms, often vulgar terms, and stands in a macho all man mentality that excites the flesh. This, by the way, is the exact strategy that the "shock jocks" of radio and TV have built their wild popularity on. There is such a thing as the order of Nature, and his perverted theology permits him to attack them all, while maintaining GRACE; in that your saved forever anyway.

This then provides a refuge from the unwanted stains of holy conviction,and thereby all condemnation. I possess God on my terms. Every cult has a belief system that promotes a similar standard. His meetings become an event; a very hip Christian happening, where the masses of the seeking hip wash the consciences of each other by agreement to the "liberty " they have, and the sheer "coolness" of it all.

It is effect, the epitome of "user friendly" theology, where the congregation has a mental God who has already accepted them, and they live their lives by just working out the kinks, as happily and as cool as they can, while meeting to gain personal credibility, and of course to establish social connections with the like minded. Mark Driscoll is the high priest of it all, and is there to encourage and establish their dark belief system.

No sin, no repentance, No holy Spirit, no honor to Jesus, no sacrifice for sins by Him. No need. Once saved always saved. Be happy, then you die and go to Heaven. Only problem here is, "NO CHRISTIAN."

C

clintstone Jul 16, 2009

well said brothertom , God bless you . Clint

J

jameztree Jul 16, 2009

Very timely post, last night I was talking about this exact issue and brother Driscoll.

He and Mars Hill Church are the rage amongst "young evangelicals" and big amongst many semitary students.

I am younger than Driscoll as well, but I think there is much danger in the rock music scene, the lack of soul winning/witnessing (they have grown through inviting people to their church and people in Seattle hearing of the church), commending secular/wicked things, amongst some other issues.

The words that Phil Johnson and John MacArthur have said were that Mark Driscoll should not be in the ministry, period.

Do I agree with the above? No. But I think there are much higher "profitable" words that need to be preached from pulpits. I listen to Driscoll some times, and half of the time I finish the sermon and the other times I grieveously turn it off. I believe that he works, and has worked, very hard to start Mars Hill Church and be a pastor (lead) there. I love brother Driscoll, and pray for him and his family as I hope y'all can pray for me and mine.

ps - Mars Hill church is completely independent and that is what the bible calls for, unlike the vast majority which are denominationallly tied

I

int3grity Jul 16, 2009

Brothertom,

You are dead wrong and I don't mean about Driscol, I mean in general!

Y

yoadam Jul 16, 2009

int3grity wrote:
Brothertom,
You are dead wrong and I don't mean about Driscol, I mean in general!

I get this feeling, too. :-( I mean, I could be wrong because I don't listen to Driscoll, and have never read any of his books... But I have seen a couple videos of him preaching on youtube.

I have heard that Driscoll has had his low points as a minister, even stooping down to using foul language when he gets upset. But I have also seen Driscoll rebuking debunking Joel Osteen in front of his congregation and I have seen him denouncing The Shack as the heresy that it is-- modalism. I have also noticed Driscoll saves his harshest words for religious hypocrites, which reminds me of SomeOne else I know...

Is Driscoll blameless? No.

Is Driscoll unsaved? I do not believe so. Remember, love "believes all things, hopes all things,"
Let's give this brother the benefit of the doubt, no?

Then again, I could be wrong, anyone who knows me around here knows that I am Reformed in doctrine, just like Driscoll, but I do also know a lot of Reformed brothers who are disgusted by men like Driscoll. He is just not enough of a puritan for them. *shrugs*

Adam :-D

sermonindex Jul 16, 2009

being relevant always brings a crowd.

Y

yoadam Jul 16, 2009

reformer wrote:
being relevant always brings a crowd.

And what could be more relevant than the gospel? I'm not so sure Driscoll preaches a false gospel.

A

anonymity Jul 17, 2009

Intercessor,

thanks I'll look over your notes.

Oh yeah an autobiography very interesting thanks!

A

anonymity Jul 17, 2009

Brothertom,

very interesting post.

One of the things I was trying to come away with in posting this question is is this from God or the flesh or what.

These are a lot of the things that I was looking into.

I like to know when something is of God and when it isn't.

If it is a move of God then I would like to receive the testimony and be encouraged by it. If not I would like to stay away from it.

From what I have seen I have seen some good things. I mean he sometimes preaches hard and solid. I know he speaks about sexual things openly, but I also know that he did it at a service wherein children were told not to attend.

So yeah I will have to consider and look into these things more.

A

anonymity Jul 17, 2009

Jamez,

"very timely post" yeah it has been striking my interest and know it has been influential so it is good to clearly know what is going on.

I don't know who Phil Johnson is. Are you sure that Macarthur said Driscoll should not be in the ministry!?

Yeah I mean just because a Church is weak in some areas or something does not mean we should damn them. Often in big movements there are a lot of good things going on, but there is also often shallowness in depth.

As for you denominational comment. I have been thinking over this lately. I think one of the interesting things about Driscoll is first that he is so young and second that he is independent. I wasn't sure if he was independent. I still am not sure. Maybe he does have somewhere that he came from and maybe he has friendship ties with elder Churches like desiring God with Piper I don't know do you. I was thinking myself should I be a part of a denomination or go outside of it. I have had a hard time with this because there really aren't any denominations that I totally agree with on everything and also wonder what is of the power of God. I have also thought thought that it is good to be in a network and a family so to say. I know that we should not be divided in denominations but sometime God just draws some people closer because they share values.

A

anonymity Jul 17, 2009

Integrity,

I wonder if that is a loving statement or even correct.

R

rainydaygirl Jul 17, 2009

From what I have seen I have seen some good things. I mean he sometimes preaches hard and solid. I know he speaks about sexual things openly, but I also know that he did it at a service wherein children were told not to attend.

__________
With all do respect having a service where "sexual things" are openly preached in a setting that has married, unmarried men and women sitting together is not ok. Really some kinds of teachings should be done with men meeting with brothers only. Sisters should not be present, especially if this teaching is detailed or graphic in nature.

Not saying that this fellow was preaching that kind of sermon but have heard of some that do and it is not ok.

We really do need to remember there are and should be boundaries. Sisters should be teaching sisters and brothers with brothers when certain things are being discussed and shared.

rdg

I

iansmith Jul 17, 2009

I don't know if anyone else here is from Seattle, but I thought I'd share the home-town perspective.

I am a young man from Seattle. I was raised by non-believing parents in a very lax environment. At a young age I was exposed to many different forms of liberal thought.

Then out of left field, Jesus came into my life and dragged me kicking and screaming out of my pluralistic liberal surroundings. I recognized that much of my Christian walk in Seattle would be rejecting elements of the 'freedom' that I had walked in before.

From what I understand of Driscoll, I think that our testimonies have some similar touch-points.

I am not here to defend every comment that Mark has ever made, or every sermon he has preached. In fact the one time that I went to Mars Hill to see him preach in person I didn't like a couple of the things he said. But I must concede that people are being miraculously transformed at his church!

I have known some people whom I thought the Gospel could never reach who have found a relationship with Jesus at Mars Hill Church in Seattle.

To those of you here that love to rip into preachers for the things they say or don't say: ~~[b]~~You are all hypocrites! [/b]Who here, especially on this forum has been without fault in their speech and comments? Mark Driscol is guilty of saying some controversial things, but one thing I have to admit about the guy, he is quick to admit when he is wrong and even repents of his mistakes publicly!

On the other hand, his church is reaching tens of thousands of people for Christ -many who were not raised in loving Christian households! ~~[b]~~We talk about revival on this forum, but I bet when it happens, we would be like the scoffers that rejected the revivals of the past[/b]. The Holy Spirit is moving in powerful ways through Mars Hill Church in Seattle, and while I recognize that not everything there is perfect, there is a great deal of fruit. We are to judge them by their fruits! Go to Mars Hill Church in Seattle, meet some of the people who have come out of darkness and into the light of the Lord Jesus.

Mark Driscoll is just a clay vessel. Of course we will find faults with him. But based on the fruits of his ministry, I have little doubt that he preaches the Gospel (and he does) out of a genuine faith in Jesus.

A

anonymity Jul 17, 2009

Is it true that Driscoll would openly curse?

When it comes to cursing. A curse word was just like saying may God damn you. If in the right context a curse word is not bad. Or a swear word. We are told to not swear or makes oaths. I mean our words should be wholesome so there are words we should not use. But I mean if there are any words that are really harsh it would be the words damn or hell. The f word I think not good to use as it has immoral connotations, but is often used in the way of saying damn you.

My main point in all of this is to see what is of the working of God, what is of the effort of the flesh, what is compromise, what is of the Devil, and ect so as to look at it correctly and take it as either an encouragement and example or as another example of what not to be like or if there is a mix and if so to what level on each side.

~~[b]~~ Oh and I would like to hear from someone as well who actually lived in the area and attended the Church regularly!????[/b]

I

iansmith Jul 17, 2009

Driscoll is a work in progress (a process often referred to as Sanctification) and I doubt that if you look for anything that he has preached in the past couple of years you will find him advocating cursing.

None of us got it 100% right the second that we accepted Jesus into our hearts.

A

anonymity Jul 17, 2009

Ian,

I agree and understand what you are saying to a good deal.

I am not sure that you can call this person or that a hypocrite or something to the level that the Pharisees were. For many are just Christians who are zealous and when that is mixed with even a little understanding the outcome is not very good. Much of the time it is out of a good motive.

Also, though a ministry may be good though with a little error much of the time why people might oppose it is because so many from the Church embrace it as the all great thing which should be copied and though it has done some good things it is has compromises that should not be followed. So sometimes people may not say this is to be damned but that it should definitely be raised to the level that it is. For instance I am not all that familiar with Mars Hill, but I do know that many people are raising it VERY HIGH so that if even there is some good amount of error the vast majority of those who are adoring this ministry are in great error. Many do not want to see the Church swayed with the wind to follow something false just because its pretty and popular.

As for the cursing thing I was responding to someone who had posted something about it. I was wondering if he did because there are some who as Christians are cursing saying that it is not really anything. I guess the person was just saying that he at times cursed not that he did it on the pulpit. So I guess there really is not claim that he did in the way that I was asking at least I think.

A

anonymity Jul 17, 2009

From what I am thinking at this point is that:

-he is not of the devil but is actually pretty on fire

-i am confident that God is working there

-however I am not sure how much of the influence is based on being cool or something

-i do not think that he is in a ton of serious error but i am not so sure how much there actually is there may be some compromising modern day philosophies

-i would still like to hear more of this topic

I

iansmith Jul 17, 2009

I am generally on the more critical side. I wouldn't be quite as positive if it was Joel Osteen or Rick Warren.

The difference is that Mark Driscoll preaches the Gospel. There are plenty of examples of him doing so on the internet so I doubt it'll be hard for you to find them. I don't think that he would intentionally preach a sermon without it being thoroughly focused on Jesus.

We read about these guys in old books, whether its Spurgeon or Bunyan or whoever... they live in a mystical world where somehow they came to the faith without sinning. Spurgeon drank, he smoked, he cursed, there were many people in his lifetime who found legitimate faults with him -but he preached the Gospel, and is fondly called the "Prince of Preachers."

Unfortunately, men like Driscoll who stand by the historic Gospel are lumped together with others who preach 'another gospel, and only after his death will he probably be recognized as having been on the right side.

To go one better for most of the folks on this forum, he's staunchly Calvinistic, and can probably explain TULIP better than most people on this forum. He may take controvercial stances on things like drinking, tatoos, music etc.

We read the words of James, the brother of Jesus in Acts 15:19-20 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood."

We see later that Paul even gives the believers an increased amount of freedom with regards to food sacrificed to Idols (the reason it was included in the Acts 15 council's decision was to promote unity between Gentile and Jewish believers).

If James were writing today, he would probably say that things like music, tattoos and drinking were peripheral to the Gospel! We need to examine what cultural assumptions we make about what a 'Christian' should look like, and see if they are biblical!