It is impossible for a Christian to have a sinful nature

As a result of Adam's sin, we were all born sinners and we received a sinful nature. Our sinful corruption was so bad and thorough that even God, Himself could not repair us. There was nothing God could do with that sinful nature, no touching up, no revising, no improving it and no adding to it could ever make it acceptable in His sight. Our sinful nature was entirely hostile to him and we were His actual enemy. We were so corrupt, so wicked and evil that the only thing God could to do with our sinful nature was to crucify it with Christ.

The only possible cure for your old sinful life was death. The Good News is that God has already provided the solution for us in Christ. When you were born again you were crucified with Christ and you were buried with Him. Your old sinful nature died and you received God's Divine Nature to replace it. You have received His all-sufficient Life in exchange for you old sinful nature.

Your old sinful self died, and you became a New Creation. Your old sinful nature is totally dead and can never be resurrected back to life again! You were resurrected with Christ and have a brand new life - with a brand new nature. Your old sinful wasn't changed, IT WAS EXCHANGED with a real life - the very life of Jesus! You no longer have a sinful nature. You now have a nature of righteousness, holiness, blamelessness. You have no need to become a better person, because God has already made you into a new person.

In Christ, we have become partakers of the divine nature! (2 Peter 1:4). We have become "one spirit" with Him. (1 Cor. 6:17). God does not co-exist nor dwell in union with sin. If we still had a nature that was sinful, He could not indwell us.

Eph. 2:1, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

The fact is that our sinful nature that we were born with, in Adam, was crucified with Christ on the cross and it died. This happened the second we were born again accomplished by the work of God in Christ. Our new nature in Christ is righteous. The Christian does not have a sinful nature and a righteous nature coexisting together. It is impossible to be both righteous and unrighteous at the same time. We can not be A Child of God and a Child of wrath at the the same time. You can only have one nature at a time because it is impossible to have two opposing natures at once. Jesus said that a house divided against itself can not stand.

Mark 3:25, "And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."

So why do we sin if our sinful nature is dead and if we now have a righteous nature? Why do we still find ourselves committing the same sins if we have indeed been made righteous by the gift of God's grace? It certainly isn't because we still have an unrighteous nature. In Jesus Christ, we have received a new nature - His very nature! The person we were "in Adam" was crucified with Jesus. However we haven't yet been delivered from the presence of our corrupted body's sin. Our spirits have been redeemed and our soul is being renewed. One day we will be delivered from the very presence of sin, but until we receive glorified bodies, we each possess the power of sin in our bodies. As we trust Christ at each moment, His life empowers us to walk in victory. However, when we fail to depend on Him, we yield ourselves to the power of sin.

So if we don't have a sinful nature or an old nature anymore, what is it we struggle against? We struggle against the flesh, our habits, and our methods of getting our needs met apart from Christ. It is the flesh that can trip us up, because it fights against who we really are in Christ. Now, make no mistake, you only have ONE nature now and that nature is Christ Himself. We do not to struggle against an old nature that's already dead. But we can rest on Christ and what He has already accomplished for you and will accomplish through you in the future.

Christians still have the capacity to sin. The good news is that we are not identified by our fleshly body but rather by who we actually are! In Christ, sin doesn't define us. We are defined as saints. Nothing we "do" can change that identity, just as nothing we did created that identity in the first place. It was all the work of God and it will always continue to be the work of God. The prodigal son didn't lose his identity as a son, even when he went off and wasted his inheritance.

Have you ever heard this story about the Christian having two dogs (or natures) inside him?

"Inside of me there are two dogs, one of the dogs is mean and evil, the other dog is good, the mean dog fights the good dog, all the time".

When asked which dog wins he reflected for a moment, and said ... "the one I feed the most."

This is a LIE that we have to starve our "old nature" and feed our "new nature” because the TRUTH is that when we were born again our old nature died and it was replaced with Christ's Life. So when you accepted Christ at salvation, you were put into Christ and your old nature was crucified with Him on that cross and when He was resurrected, you were resurrected also-in Him and Him in you. You were "born again" with His new nature. The old once ceases to exist.

Paul explains this clearly in many verses (the message):

Romans 6:6-11, "Could it be any clearer? Our old way of life was nailed to the cross with Christ, a decisive end to that sin-miserable life - no longer at sin's every beck and call! What we believe is this: If we get included in Christ's sin-conquering death, we also get included in his life-saving resurrection. We know that when Jesus was raised from the dead it was a signal of the end of death-as-the-end. Never again will death have the last word. When Jesus died, he took sin down with him, but alive he brings God down to us. From now on, think of it this way: Sin speaks a dead language that means nothing to you; God speaks your mother tongue, and you hang on every word. You are dead to sin and alive to God. That's what Jesus did."

As Paul said, "could it be any clearer?"

Colossians 3:3-4, "Your old life is dead. Your new life, which is your real life-even though invisible to spectators-is with Christ in God. He is your life. When Christ, your real life, shows up again on this earth, you'll show up, too-the real you, the glorious you. Meanwhile, be content with obscurity, like Christ."

Romans 6:1-3, "So what do we do? Keep on sinning so God can keep on forgiving? I should hope not! If we've left the country where sin is sovereign, how can we still live in our old house there? Or didn't you realize we packed up and left there for good? That is what happened in baptism. When we went under the water, we left the old country of sin behind; when we came up out of the water, we entered into the new country of grace-a new life in a new land!

Romans 6:3-5; "That's what baptism into the life of Jesus means. When we are lowered into the water, it is like the burial of Jesus; when we are raised up out of the water, it is like the resurrection of Jesus. Each of us is raised into a light-filled world by our Father so that we can see where we're going in our new grace-sovereign country."

Galatians 2:19-21, "What actually took place is this: I tried keeping rules and working my head off to please God, and it didn't work. So I quit being a "law man" so that I could be God's man. Christ's life showed me how, and enabled me to do it. I identified myself completely with him. Indeed, I have been crucified with Christ. My ego is no longer central. It is no longer important that I appear righteous before you or have your good opinion, and I am no longer driven to impress God. Christ lives in me. The life you see me living is not "mine," but it is lived by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I am not going to go back on that. Is it not clear to you that to go back to that old rule-keeping, peer-pleasing religion would be an abandonment of everything personal and free in my relationship with God? I refuse to do that, to repudiate God's grace. If a living relationship with God could come by rule-keeping, then Christ died unnecessarily."

If you are a Christian and living in defeat and are struggling with sin you now you must believe what Christ has already done for you and in you by faith! All this is a done deal. It was all accomplished for you and given to when you became a Christian. Now if Christ does live within you, His presence means that your sinful nature is dead, but your spirit becomes alive because of the righteousness he brings with him (Romans 8:10 Phillips).

Your old evil desires were nailed to the cross with Him; that part of you that loves to sin was crushed and fatally wounded, so that your sin-loving body is no longer under sin's control, no longer needs to be a slave to sin; For when you are deadened to sin you are freed from all its allure and its power over you (Romans 6:6-7 Living Bible).

You may ask, if Christ makes believers dead to sin and if my evil nature is crushed - why do I still discover old evil desires popping up? Why is there still an evil presence in my body? Why am I still capable of doing sinful things like all other sinners? Why should I be a Christian, if it doesn't break the power of sin?

Maybe you haven't heard yet, or maybe it sounds too good to be true, but Christ totally freed us to all sin at Calvary. You can now "walk out" on the devil! You can throw down your load of sin, walk away from Satan's dominion, and enter into a new life of freedom. Let me show you what the Bible means when it talks about dying to sin. When Lincoln emancipated the slaves, the "issue" of slavery died. Not the slave master--not the slave. The slave could walk away free, saying to himself: SLAVERY IS A DEAD ISSUE. THE OLD SLAVE IN ME IS DEAD. I AM A FREE MAN.

When someone receives Christ, what is it in him that dies? Sin doesn't die. Satan doesn't die. Nor does the evil tendency die. The "issue" or the "controversy" dies. Sin created a controversy in the heart of man about who was in control and the battle between good and evil was the result. God simply emancipated the mind from sin's control, killing the controversy of slavery to evil.

When the Bible says, "We die to sin," it simply means that to us THE ISSUE IS DEAD! There is no more argument--THE MATTER IS NOT NEGOTIABLE--MANKIND WAS EMANCIPATED AT CALVARY! The issue as to who is in charge is dead! Paul used legal terms to describe the Christian's freedom from sin's bondage. The same legal terms are used daily in Congress: THE BILL IS DEAD. THE AMENDMENT WAS KILLED. THE RESOLUTION DIED.

The Bible says, "...he that is dead is free from sin...Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe we shall also live with him" (Romans 6:7,8). What that means is simply this: Since the matter of your slavery to sin is a dead issue, seeing that Christ has already declared you emancipated, you are now free to live as a new person in Christ. In other words, you have died to slavery, so why go back and pick cotton for the devil?

Now the slave could slip back into the field and pick a few more rows of cotton- - perhaps through fear or instinct - -but that, in no way, made him a slave again. He was free, but he had to exercise his freedom. The proclamation couldn't force compliance, and neither could the slave master force him to return. It was a matter of the will of the slave. Christ declares we are free by faith, but we must act as a free person.

Satan decreed a law that, as prince of the world, all living souls were his subjects. God's Supreme Court KILLED THAT LAW OF SIN. It died because Satan could not enforce it anymore. God declared it unconstitutional and substituted His own law--THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT, giving Him all rights to the believer's body.

After years of trying to understand what Paul meant by DYING TO SIN or DEATH OF THE OLD NATURE, I now see how simple it all is? Sin doesn't die, only the SLAVERY to it dies! Its power over me dies. So now I don't have to go around trying to die or struggle to feel dead. Nothing in me dies except the law that held me in sin's control. Sin is still present in me, but I am no longer under its control.

Think of freedom from sin as a divorce. Christ takes the believer to His Father, the Judge, and gets a divorce from sin so that He can take that same believer as a bride to Himself. Christ loved us while we were still living with sin; He died to prove that love; and that gave Him the right to annul sin's claim on us.

This divorce makes us dead to the claims of the old affair, but it doesn't stop the old illicit lover from coming around to harass, seduce, or try to press a new claim. Satan never accepts such an annulment without a fight. He will come, calling with threats, with compromises, with alluring offers. But legally, Satan no longer has a claim on any believer. Paul wrote, "...having died to that which once held us, we now serve in newness of the Spirit, and not in the oldness of the Law" (Romans 7:6).

No Christian can now say, "I can't help myself. I can't break from my sin." Paul was finally delivered from this kind of talk, and so must we be! Satan can't make you sin now; but your old slave nature can attempt to reassert itself. If Christ did not break the power of sin, the crucifixion was a hoax. You will always be a slave until you quit excusing your weakness by claiming to be helpless. You are not helpless as a child of God. You are not the devil's patsy anymore. Pretending to still be a slave of sin is an alibi Christians use to put off facing the responsibility of their freedom. And so we should not be like cringing, fearful slaves, but we should behave like God's very own children, adopted into the bosom of his family (Romans 8:15 Living Bible).

Now Christ has made us free. Now make sure that you stay free and don't get all tied up again in the chains of slavery (Galatians 5:1 Living Bible). Freedom from sin's slavery must be accepted by faith. The whole thing then is a matter of faith on man's part, and generosity on God's (Romans 3:16 Phillips). Faith is something you do about what you know. Knowledge means nothing unless it is acted upon.

The children of Israel received the good word that God had given them Canaan for a homeland. That information would have meant nothing at all to them if they had remained in Egypt as slaves. But the Bible says, "By faith...they forsook Egypt...by faith they passed over the Red Sea" (Hebrews 11:27-31). The Israelites did not march to the border of Canaan, fire one volley of arrows, and expect all the enemy armies to drop dead. The land was theirs, but they had to possess it "one dead soldier at a time."

What does that have to do with my getting victory over the grip of sin? Everything! Christ settled the issue of slavery to sin by declaring me emancipated from its dominion, but I have to believe it to the point that I do something about it. It is not enough to say, "Yes, I believe Christ forgives sin. I believe He is Lord. I know He can break the power of sin in my life." You are mentally consenting to what you heard. But faith is stepping out on that promise of freedom and acting upon it.

Face the facts. All your other methods to find peace and freedom have failed. You cried a river of tears; you made a thousand promises that you broke; you tried self-control, self-denial, and various self-help programs. After all you have tried; you still ended up with unfulfilled longings you could not understand or overcome. You found yourself unable to stop sinning. You were, at times, driven into sin through sheer boredom and mental depression.

The problem is that you have not yet gotten to the root of your problem. You may have heard that Christ has emancipated you by dying on a cross, but you will never enjoy that freedom until you give God what He asks of you--and that is A TRUSTING MIND. He wants you to believe waht He has told you is true.

For without faith it is impossible to please him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he exists, and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him..." (Hebrews 11:6). Faith is simply taking God at His Word and acting upon it. The true believer is the person who can say, "God said, therefore I believe it. I'll stake my life, my future, my eternity on it. If God has decreed that I am a free person--if He tells me sin no longer has power over me--if He says my faith in Him makes it all possible--THEN I ACCEPT--I GIVE UP MY USELESS STRUGGLE--AND I YIELD ALL TO HIM. I DO BELIEVE!"

The most important move you ever make, as a believer, is the move you make right after you fall. Satan whispers, "You are rotten to the core, sensuous, childish, and immature. You will never be holy; you will never be anything in God. So quit! Give up. It's useless to try. Go back! God is too high and holy; it's too complicated and difficult; you'll never figure it out. It's all over!"

Lies--all lies! So you thought you had freedom and lost it? So you think people will call you a phony? So you sinned with your eyes wide open--knowing better--with the Holy Spirit screaming in your ears? So you never thought you could do such a vile thing again? So what? Your fall is not fatal. Once again, confess and accept God's fact that you are totally forgiven, holy and that your sinful nature is dead because of what Christ has already done for you. You are still His child. You are not a slave to sin. His loving kindness is greater than all your sins. Look up, rejoice, and take heart!

Any sense of broken fellowship with God is in your own mind, not God's. His loving kindness is everlasting. Nothing will change that, not even neglecting to read your Bible. That old nature you think squelches your holy desire? That isn't your old nature! The old nature is dead. It's only your flesh and the power of indwelling sin "messing with your mind." Affirm the truth! Christ is your life, no matter what you do or don't do."

Stop your everlasting introspection. You won't find victory, probing around the garbage dump of your mind. That would be like a losing general, crossing the enemy lines to consult with his foe, asking, "Can you please tell me what I'm doing wrong? I want to defeat you, but I can't seem to make headway. What am I doing wrong?"

When Paul talks about sin in regards to Christians, he says that sin dwells in our "members" (bodies). (Romans 7:17-20). Sin is not the Christians nature; rather sin dwells in our temporary, corruptible bodies. Our bodies are not who we are. Our bodies are not our identity. Our bodies do not define who we are. Our bodies will eventually be put in the ground or burned into ashes, but "we" will live on. "We" will live on, because "we" are spiritual! We are spiritual beings with a righteous nature who happen to live temporarily in sinful bodies.

When Paul wrote to churches that had very obvious problems with sin, he never referred to them as "sinners saved by grace." He never told them "they were not perfect, just forgiven," either. No, Paul referred to them as saints. Saints are holy people who are set apart, righteous, justified, cleansed, and purified. Paul addressed them as who they really were - saints. When Paul talks to them about their sin, he tells them that by the grace of God and by the Spirit they should put away their sinful deeds. Now the only reason that they could do this was fact that they are righteous, since they are saints, since they've been forgiven, since they are holy, since they've been washed and cleansed and purified, and since the very life of Jesus lives in union with them.

The Bible does not say Christians are sinners. It does not say that they have a sinful nature. In fact the good news is that our old sinful nature was crucified with Christ.

God made them holy and righteous. The Holy Spirit reveals this fact to us and then appeals to our righteous nature as the means by which to overcome and put away the deeds of the flesh. Even when Paul referred to himself as the "chief of sinners," remember that he's not talking about his current condition. He's referring to his past. If anyone had the right to crown themselves the chief of sinners, it was his past life that would reign supreme! But now, having become a partaker of the divine nature, Paul and those he wrote to, and you and I and anyone else who has been born again simply through faith, can never call themselves "sinner" again!

The Bible gives us good news. Jesus Christ will deliver us from these bodies of death! Our corruptible bodies will be exchanged for incorruptible bodies and our mortality will be exchanged for immortality. In the meantime, we trust in the righteousness of God that is ours as a gift. Trust the reality that you are one with Him, even if you sometimes don't act like it. Trust in who you are in Christ, and end the focus on sin that dwells in you, but is not you. Trust that you have one nature - the divine nature!

The way to overcome, and to live in victory over the sin that dwells in our bodies is not to think of ourselves as "sinners saved by grace." We are not "sinners." We are righteous saints who sometimes submit to sin that dwells in our members. Some say we're sinners saved by grace. Some say we're saints saved by grace. So what? We all sin in the end, right?

Knowing who you are - your true nature, your true identity as a saint in Christ - makes all the difference in how you go about living your daily life in Christ. If you're just a "sinner" who's begging God daily for grace, then I believe you've missed the whole point of the life that God gave us. God didn't come and dwell in us so that we could say we're merely sinners saved by grace. He deposited His VERY LIFE into us! His Life has become our life. His life is divine. We have become partakers of His Divine Nature! If we see ourselves in this light - the light of the truth of who we really are - then we will begin naturally growing in ways that "sinners" can never grow. What shows on the outside will begin to match the true reality of what has already taken place on the inside. Peter called this "growing in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

In the same way, a Christian who is sinning is simply not behaving naturally. Your actual, factual nature - given to you as a gift from God - is righteous. You are a saint. The Bible says that you have become a "partaker of the divine nature." There is no sin in the Divine nature. Your nature is not righteous and sinner. You are a righteous person who sometimes sins, but sin is not your nature! Well, what about when I walk after the flesh? Again, the flesh is not your nature! In fact, quickly, let's talk about the difference between the "flesh" and the "sinful nature," and then discuss how neither one describes the reality of who we are in Christ.

Sinful nature: This is the actual, factual nature that we inherited from Adam. When we were born, we had this nature. But when we were born again, this nature died and we took on the new nature of righteousness - a gift from God. Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ" and "I died." Those are powerful statements! So, what died? What was crucified with Christ? Our bodies obviously didn't die. Our souls didn't die - we can still think and feel and we still have a "will." So what died was our spirit that had been born in Adam - our sinful nature. When we were born again, we still had these old bodies and souls, but our sinful nature was killed - dead, gone, crucified - forever - and we were raised to life with the righteous nature of Christ.

Flesh: The flesh can be described as our own efforts to live this life apart from God. When we had the sinful nature, it was quite easy for us to simply walk according to the flesh. That is, to walk according to our own way of doing things apart from God. When our sin nature died, and when we were born again as new creations with righteous natures, it became natural for us to walk after the Spirit. But yet anytime our souls (mind, will, emotions) are not secure in the reality of who our spirits have truly become in Christ, we still find ourselves trying to live our lives by our own methods, even by our own religious methods. But all it is is walking after the flesh.

To make it clear, the flesh and the sinful nature are not synonymous. The NIV unfortunately translates the Greek word "sarx" as "sinful nature" several times, when the word "sarx" actually means "flesh." This can really lead to confusion, because the flesh is NOT the sinful nature! The sinful nature has died. We could not be partakers in the divine nature if we were still partakers of the sinful nature!

The Christian has just one true nature, but that nature needs continual renewing (Colossians 3:10). This renewing, of course, is a lifetime process for the Christian. Even though the battle for sin is constant, we are no longer under the control of sin (Romans 6:6). The believer is truly a "new creation" in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), and it is Christ who will ultimately "rescue [us] from this body of death. Thanks be to God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! (Romans 7:24-25).

When Christ was crucified, the old man was crucified with Him, resulting in the Christian's no longer being a slave to sin (Romans 6:6). We "have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness" (Romans 6:18). At the moment of conversion, the Christian receives a new nature. It is instantaneous.

When a person receives Christ, he is given the very nature of Jesus. Peter said that we have become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:3). A Christian does not gradually become righteous -- he has been given the gift of righteousness in the person of Christ! 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, "that God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him". You may behave more righteously than you do right now, but you will never be made more righteous than you are today. Every Christian has the nature of Christ. How can we get holier than that?

When our focus is only on behavior, we are living a legalistic, performance based kind of "Christian" life. God's prescription is that our focus should be on Jesus. Abiding in Him will allow us to live in victory. Our lifestyle is not built on values, Christian or otherwise. Our life is Christ! As we abide in Him, His righteousness is expressed through our lifestyle. Apart from him, even our "good" deeds are nothing more than empty religion. Jesus said, "Apart from me you can do nothing". We can preach, pray, teach, witness, give, and do a hundred other things, but they all add up to zero in God's eyes if we aren't abiding in Christ. Don't get caught up in living by values. Live by His life. An expression of Christ is real Christianity. Abide in Him!

At the cross of Jesus Christ, the trunk (source) of sin in our lives was completly severed. The flesh patterns of our past may still cling to us like vines, but there is no source of life to sustain them anymore. The cross of Jesus Christ destroyed the power of sin in your life by dealing a death blow to your old nature! Do you want to walk in freedom over the flesh patterns of your past? Appropriate by faith that the cross was sufficient. Allow the life-giving power of Christ's life to surge through you like nutrients from the ground passing through the roots into the tree to produce fruit.

You may recognize old fleshly vines clinging to you that grew over a period of years, but as you trust Christ to express Himself as your very life, you will see those vines wither and lose their grip on you. Keep your eyes on Jesus. By His grace, He will prune away the life-draining patterns that rob you of His life flowing without restriction in and through you. He will free you daily from sin's power and will produce the fruit of the Spirit in your life.

A person can certainly act or behave like something he or she isn't, but that doesn't change his or her true nature. If I got on all fours and started barking like a dog, chewing bones and chasing the mailman, it's not that I'm behaving out of a "canine nature". I'm simply behaving in a way that doesn't represent my actual nature. I don't have two natures. I'm not a human and a dog. I'm a human who's acting like a dog.

But "who I am" is not my body anyway. I am a spiritual being who has become one spirit with God (1 Cor. 6:17). The more I dwell on the reality of this, rather than dwelling on sin that dwells in my body or who I was in Adam, the more "who I am" will work its way out to show on the outside! So, I praise God that I am in Him and He is in me, and that I'm no longer related to "the first man Adam," who "became a living being," but I'm now related to "the last Adam," who "became a life-giving spirit!" (1 Cor. 15:45)

When we were born we where identified as "sinners." Now, after coming to Christ by faith, we have a new identity as saints! We are not "sinners saved by grace." It is grace alone which has saved us, but now in addition to having been forgiven of our sins, we have been made holy, blameless and righteous - saints! That is actually, factually what God has made us to be! He doesn't just "see" us as holy and righteous. He has made us holy and righteous.

If you believe you still have a sinful nature you will act like you do; believe that you are a holy, purified saint who admittedly sins at times, but who hates that life-style, and you'll be highly motivated to act like such a saint." Our new life in Christ is lived by trusting and resting in what God has already done, and in His very life which is in union with ours forever!

Rom. 6:3-7, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Eph. 4:17-23, "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col. 3:9-10, "Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"

Peter 1:3, "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

1 Cor. 6:9-11, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Eph. 2:12-16, "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."

My friend up until a few years ago I would have agreed with all what you have posted.

After falling into sin, I went into a time of prayer and fasting and the end of the fast God started to open my eyes to the depths of sin that where still in me. This sinful nature is so cunning and so engraved into your personality you believe it's you.

Since then God has been teaching me about purity and holiness showing me there is away for sinful nature to be dealt with.

Now many teach what you have posted on here.

Your old sinful self died, and you became a New Creation. Your old sinful nature is totally dead and can never be resurrected back to life again! You were resurrected with Christ and have a brand new life - with a brand new nature.

I find this not to be the case, yes I have changed from what I was but there is still the old evil man in me, it did not die when I met Jesus. So I would go so far to say that there are two stages in your walk with God.

Justification
1. Like Moses and Israel you are set free from Pharaoh and the Egyptian control and you cross over the Red Sea into the Desert. Like the Israel they where given the law, we are given law but its written in our hearts. (Although we are justified by faith, many seek to be sanctified by works by keeping the law this is the working of the evil nature)

Sanctification
2. Like Moses and Israel in the desert we must experience death before crossing over to the Promised Land. In this stage our sinful nature must be dealt the death blow before we can progress to cross over the Jordan River to the Promised Land.

The following quote is by Andrew Murray

The man who sees that self is incurably evil and must die; who gives self utterly to death as he sinks before God in utter impotence and the surrender to His working; who consents to death with Christ on the cross as his desert, and in faith accepts it as his only deliverance; he alone is prepared to be led by the Holy Spirit into the full enjoyment of the New Covenant life. He will learn to understand how completely death makes an end to all self-effort, and how, as he lives in Christ to God, everything henceforth is to be the work of God Himself.

At the banks of the Jordan E. E. Shelhamer Took the “Deathroute

This testimony of Rev. E. E. Shelhamer, very clearly and forcibly, reveals the fact that human efforts of consecration and the divine crucifixion of carnal self are not the same thing.

One may consecrate endlessly and still not have the carnal nature eradicated else one could sanctify himself merely by making a consecration. Consecration will make crucifixion possible by getting one’s consent and making one willing to receive the death blow to the carnal pollution of the heart.

Here is Rev. Shelhamer’s testimony to his sanctification: I well remember my own experience when but a boy preacher. I awoke to the fact that though I had a measure of success in soul-winning, I had doubts at certain times whether all unholy tempers were gone. When I told it to my brethren, they tried to calm my fears by saying it was temptation, or infirmities. They said I had the standard too high. During those six years, I professed to have received the blessing [of holiness] a number of times. But I see now, my advisors side-tracked me. They meant well, but instead of teaching me that holiness of heart was an experience, an inward crucifixion, they held, as many do today, that it was a great blessing. I was instructed to make a complete consecration, lay all on the altar and believe the altar sanctified the gift.

But this was not my trouble--lack of consecration and abandonment to God. No! I was fully given up to God and delighted to do His will. I was not after a blessing. [b]I wanted purity.[/b] My good brethren diverted me from my trouble within, to a blessing and more activity without.

Finally, I heard a mighty man of God tell his experience--how he had preached and professed holiness for twenty-five years without it. But when the Holy Ghost revealed to him his depravity—the depth of pride, self-will and hell (as Wesley taught), he cried out “LET ME DIE! LET ME DIE!” He said he was three days confessing and deploring carnality, when suddenly the refining fire of God purified him through and through. When I heard this, immediately I said, “This is the Bible route--the death-route!”

The Holy Ghost took me through step by step until I came to the end of myself, [b]when the death stroke was given and the clear witness received that the precious Blood did NOW cleanse from all sin.[/b] O praise His Name!

Taken from the book Scriptural Death-Route Holiness By Rev. L. S. Boardman

Greetings and heartpeace to each of you and to all the saints who fellowship there with you.

I have discovered that I have become a "Holiness" person. I began to learn about people involved in the message of Holiness only after God's transforming power in my own life led my wife and I to a singular life in Christ Jesus. By that I mean that my wife and I live for God, and God alone. We have been purchased with a great price and both count it our eternal duty to honor our Redeemer, Savior, and Lord, by the way we live our life and share the truth of His Word.

It is only in the last week or so that I have begun to search out on the internet, information about others involved in the quest for living a holy life. I found this one page document that I think is well worth the read. I share it with you because God is good. And those who focus on His goodness, and how we may be partakers of His goodness will flourish in spiritual prosperity and ministry. To God be the glory, now and forever amen. I have also requested the creation of a Group here that centers on life and ministry in Holiness unto our God.

What Is Holiness

By Lynn Thrush

We derive the meaning of holiness, rather than describe an independent object. The word begins to be defined when we know the source from which it springs, or the entity with which it is identified. Holiness is properly identified with God, “I will show My greatness and My holiness.” Ez. 38:23. Holiness is connected to the very positive terms “majestic” and “splendor.” Ps. 29:2. Holiness is contrasted to that which is profaned, Ez. 36:22-23 and to that which is unclean. Lev. 11:44.

Holiness as a noun is best understood as a gerund (a noun derived from a verb). Holiness is a description of God or a person or thing because of action done, or as the result of a prior action. 2 Cor. 7:1; Eph. 4:24. Thus as a description related to activity/action/behavior, holiness is not static; it resists being defined as a state of being or attainment. Holiness then, is comprehended in the life/behavior/thinking of the disciple.

The opposite of holiness is that which is adulterous/mixed. Holiness is unmixed. God is love, and there is no admixture of anything other than love within Him. God is other-oriented, and there is no admixture of selfish behavior in Him. Jesus everywhere saw an adulterous generation, a culture of mixed loyalties. Jesus wants no admixture of loyalties in His disciples.

Holiness should not fundamentally be described by that which ought not to be present, namely sin. Such a negative, passive and reactionary inversion of holiness assures that holiness is taught in terms of what ought not to be. Rather, holiness is the good character of God unmixed by any shadow of darkness. The love of God and the fruit of the Spirit depicted in unmixed intention and action go a long way in describing holiness. The relational dimensions of Romans 12:1-2 and Ephesians 3:19 call all persons to transformation of life and fullness of God, holiness working out in the disciple’s life as an ongoing journey of yielding to God and growing in grace.

I do not believe that you used these scriptures accurately, due to the common teaching of this subject, to which I also at one time was indoctrinated. And I think the scritures you used were quoted out of context and that the context will show that they do not propound what you have been led to believe, and now teach.

After making your case, you state: In Christ, we have become partakers of the divine nature! (2 Peter 1:4). We have become "one spirit" with Him. (1 Cor. 6:17). God does not co-exist nor dwell in union with sin. If we still had a nature that was sinful, He could not indwell us.

You say that 2nd Peter 1:4 states; "We have become partakers of the divine nature!" But here is 2nd Peter 1:4 compaired with what you said it said, and it dose not say that.

2 Pet 1:4 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye MIGHT BE partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

You say, "We HAVE BECOME partakers", Peter said "We MIGHT BE partakers".

You make it a "done deal".

Peter makes it optional, as in, well you MIGHT and you MIGHT not.

Context of this chapter shows that being a partaker or the divine nature is "optional" and dependant upon certain conditions. First and foremost by gaining a knowledge of God and understanding his promises amd obeying the sayings, words, and commandments of Christ.

2 Peter 1:
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, according as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

It is the knowledge of the Word of God, and specifically the sayings, words and commandments of Christ, that teach us how to live a life of godliness. With this knowledge and only this knowledge do we then have the opportunity to do what Peter states next.

4 Whereby (in this knowledge of Christ's gospel)are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

HOW do we escape the corruption that is in the world through lust? Simply (if not easily) by obeying the teachings of Christ.

Having the "divine nature" is totally dependant on weather or not we came to a knowledge of the truth of Christ, obeyed his commandments, put off the works of the flesh, nd of the mind we had previously. This is not instantainious, but is gradually learned and grown into.

You stated, and I quote: "You have no need to become a better person, because God has already made you into a new person."

This is an out and out falsehood, and will lead people to hell if believed. If this were true then Peter would not have bothered to say what he said next.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue (moral excellence); and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance (self control); and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; nd to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

It is clear by these scriptures, and the totality of what Peter states, that God is not the one who makes you this way, YOU are the one who chooses to put off the old sinful nature and put on the new nature. Peter who was speaking for God definately states that you do in fact hav to improve yourself and become a "better person". In fact every writer in the New Testament states these very facts.

The next scripture you used to propound your false assumption was 1 Cor. 6:17. I will again quote your false statement and show clearly from the words of the writers themselves in context of the scriptures you misuse and misquote,that what you are teacing is not accurate.

Again you stated: "In Christ, we have become partakers of the divine nature! (2 Peter 1:4). We have become "one spirit" with Him. (1 Cor. 6:17). God does not co-exist nor dwell in union with sin. If we still had a nature that was sinful, He could not indwell us.

We have already see clearly that 1 Peter dose not say what you said it said. Now we will see that 1 Cor 6:17 also dose not state what you say here.

You state that 1 Cor 6:17 states, "We have become one spirit with Him."

Yet Paul states:

1Cor 6:17 But he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit.

Of the ELEVEN words Paul used in that sentence, you only used TWO. You used the two words "one spirit", and then took licence to change the rest. Not only did you not quote the scripture correctly, you also made statments taking it totally out of context, to try and prove something completely the opposite of what it states when read correctly in context.

1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners,(Be they Christian or not) shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (WHY, because they QUIT DOING THAT STUFF, AND BECAME "BETTER PEOPLE".)

12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

16 What? know ye not that HE WHICH IS JOINED TO AN HARLOT is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But HE THAT IS JOINED UNTO THE LORD is one spirit. FLEE FORNICATION. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

That scripture that you tried to use to prove that it meant you were just presto chango, one spirit with the Lord, and he'd just automatically given you the divine nature, and your sin nature was gone, deals with Paul waring "born again" believers not to FORNICATE. Now why waiste his breath, if they didn't have the sin nature there would be no temptation to fornicate.

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Again you stated: Again you stated: "In Christ, we have become partakers of the divine nature! (2 Peter 1:4).

We saw the Peter said nothing of the kind.

You said: "We have become "one spirit" with Him. (1 Cor. 6:17).

We saw that Paul was saying nothing of the kind.

You said: "God does not co-exist nor dwell in union with sin. If we still had a nature that was sinful, He could not indwell us.

Oh really? I'd say he's been "co-existing" with sin for quite some time. And ALL of the prophets and men of God in the Bible sinned at one time or another. David was a man after God's own heart, and look what he did. There is no where in the Bible, that it states what you have said here.

The great thing about grace, and about Jesus Christ, was that God chose to come down and dwell with sinful natured man, and take on the nature of sinful man. That is why Jesus hung out with publicans and sinners and said things like "they that are whole need not a physician", and "there is more joy in heaven over one sinner that repents, than over the 99 just persons that need no repentance.

Heb 3:Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels (a DIVINE NATURE); but he took on him the seed of Abraham (A SINFUL NATURE).

17
Wherefore IN ALL THINGS it behoved him TO BE MADE like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18 FOR IN THAT HE HIMSELF HATH SUFFERED BEING TEMPTED, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Christ himself was born into this world with the SIN NATURE. You cannot be "tempted" if you do not have the natural inclination to sin. "Tempted in all points just like we are, but without sin." WHY is that? Because he always did those things that pleased God, he always choose to do the WORD. And he proved that we can choose to DO as he did and be like him.

If Christ was not born with a SIN NATURE, then he could not have been our savior, could not have been a "faithful high priest", who was touched with the "feelings" of our infimities.

His accomplishments, and the words he left, teach us also how to overcome and conquer sin. Christ proved that man could in fact be obedient.

By his perfect obedience and ultimate sacrifice, he paved the way for us, who choose to walk in his steps. It wasn't easy for him and it's not easy for us.

Now some might quote this verse of scripture, to try and prove that it's God that just does it all.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

But again read in context....

Phil 2:12- Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

And if you really want to know exactly how it is that God works in you, then you have to read a bit more.

1 Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, THE WORD OF GOD, WHICH EFFECTUALLY WORKETH ALSO IN YOU THAT BELIEVE.

How dose God work in us? When his WORD is in us. How is his Word in us?

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

We are to abide in, live in, dwell in, his words, sayings, commandments, until those words, sayings and commandments abide in us. Then and only then as we become disciples and become obedient to those words are we partakers of his divine nature, just as he partook of his Fathers divine nature, by staying in His Word. Then and only then are we made FREE from sin.

When we finally get to the place where his Word remains in us, and we act on it in daily living, in the situations we run into in life, then and only then are we partakers of that divine nature.

Eph 4:31. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Again this is something you DO, not that God does for you. God does not make you do anything, nor does his spirit make you do anything. We choose to do or not do according to what Christ taught, because of the same reason Abraham and Moses did what they did, because of the PROMISES.

Heb. 11:By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: FOR HE HAD RESPECT UNTO THE RECOMPENCE OF THE REWARD.

If we did not have the sin nature latent within us till we die, and or the Lord returns and this body is redeemed, then the word would not say such things as follows.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, AND THE SIN WHICH DOTH SO EASILY BESET US, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

"Sin could not so easily beset us, if we were just automatically given a divine sinless nature that takes away any and all desire to sin."

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

"If we just atomatically had a divine nature when we are born again, when we have the holy spirit, if God just does it all and we must not try and "be better people", then it would be foolsih for God to say we were stiving against sin."

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Prov 3:11

"With an automatic sinless nature then God would not need to correct or rebuke us. Again it would be foolish and a waist of words for God to say these types of things over and over and over."

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, THEN ARE YE BASTARDS AND NOT SONS.

Obviously there is a "choice" going on here for the Christian.

Consiquently you have people out there thinking that they cannot repent enough to be saved, or that they don't have to repent to be saved, because they are all looking for some miraculous event in which God just automatically makes them like Christ. Meanwhile, if they were jerks before them came to Christ, then they just become Christian jerks, because they have not been warned sufficiently about how God fully expects them to bring forth fruit meet for repentance.

In Christ you will not be a better person, you will be the "best" person.

El Harris

"ENABLERS". These are Christians who basically never really had a REAL sin problem to begin with, and therefore have no concept or idea of what it really takes to overcome sin.

Blessings to You in the name of Jesus Christ,

You said: "Christ tells us to walk in the spirit to not fulfill the lust of the flesh. You make it sound like I have to do step one...then step two and so on? If I am mistaken, explain this please. I sense pattern of works. You are correct and I agree that it is not instantaneous be learned as we walk with the Lord, since He has promised to accomplish what He has started."

From my research into mysticism in the early Church Fathers and on down through history, I have found that the understanding of what it is to walk in the "spirit", has been intermingled with mystic beliefs.

The scriptures specifically state:

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

First of all THEY...not "WE" knew that the Son of God came and gave THEM an UNDERSTANDING, that they might know him that is true, and THEY absolutely were IN Him. You can I can only claim this is we have the "same" understanding they did.

One of the main things Jesus came to do, was to "reform" those that believed in God, by giving them an accurate understanding of God's will. They had, had this at times, through the prophets, and the writings of scripture, but had lost that understanding. No longer did they believe the Torah, they had what you might call an "anti-Torah"

When ever God blesses men, by giving them an accurate understanding of his will, the devil working in men, comes along and steals that understanding, by bringing in "another understanding", a slightly twisted one. You have the same writings, but a twisted understanding of them. He did this with false prophets in the OT, and false teachers in the New.

Johns whole point in writing 1 John was to warn believers who he knew personally, about men coming in to deceive them and change the original understanding they were given. In fact, Peter, John and Jude are all based on this premise.

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

John had probably taught these people the gospel. He knew they were in the right understanding and or "faith", which consists of the teachings of Christ. They had a right understanding.

But even then when he wrote this, there were "Churches" that were falling away from the true faith, true teachings, true understanding of the gospel of Christ.

3John 1:9I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

Humph...can you imagine??? Not receiving the apostle John or those sent by him. And the truth is today, if he were to come in to any Church on the face of the planet, speaking and teaching his understanding of the gospel of Christ, he would most likely not be received. WHY? Because in truth much of our understanding is inherited from those groups that fell away in the first century.

But then, this was "foretold" to happen, as Jesus warned many would come in his name saying He (Jesus) was the Christ, and deceive many. And as John also stated, that even they had been warned that antichrist shall come, even then at his time, there were many antichrists. And again, that these "antichrists" were Christian believers that WENT OUT from the them, meaning they were in fact true Christians.

They, had another understanding of the gospel. Since the gospel is composed of words, all one has to do, is redefine a word here and there, to begin to give another or different understanding of what Christ and the apostles originally taught.

The truth was that they were emerced in a culture that was infused with Greek philosophy. If you read the Republic by Plato, you find that Socartes loved to argue about the "meaning" of words, and to redefine them. This is how he deceived the youth of his day, into having irreverance for the gods, and was tried for the crime of impiety and corrupting the youth.

These same methods of philosophy, were often adopted by Christians of the first century, and later centuries, and applied to the gospel or words, teacihngs, sayings of Christ. Through this means, men could confuse and turn a believers heart from the truth in Christ, which they had originally been taught. And through this means mysitcisum was infused into the understanding of the original gospel.

Hence why Paul warned the Collosians.

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you (lead you off as prey), through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, and the rudiments of the world and not after Christ.

How did they lead them off? By giving them a slightly different understanding of what Christ taught, by twisting the meaning of words.

Another main way the understanding of the gospel was corrupted, was by men who studied scritpure and then came up with bright ideas that certain prophecies had come to pass when they had not.

An example of this is two believers named Hymenaeus and Philetus.

2 Tim 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings (Greek philosophical methods of interpretation) : for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

A "canker" is ganegrene. Paul is saying these kinds of teachings, would eat away at the body of Christ, till the whole was infected.

What did Hymenaeus and Philetus do? They taught that prophecy had come to pass, when it had not. They taught that the resurrection was "PAST" already. When ever you draw a wrong conclusion about prophecy, stating that something has come to pass when it has not, then that can only lead to having to wrongly interpret another prophecy. If the resurrection had come to pass already, then what would that mean to a believer than was still here? Wouldn't that mean, they just had not quite made it? That would mean they were either living in the "TIME" of the tribulation or wrath. Or that would mean that the kingdom of God was about to come to pass on earth. But when Jesus doesn't show up personally on the scene, then you have to reinterpret a bunch of other things. Like for instance Christ ruling on the earth through the Church, usher in the RCC.

I found it very interesing, after I started teacihng myself to read large portions of scritpure, and take every sentence in context, that this statement about Hymenaeus and Philetus, and what they did, and what the result would be, comes right after a very favorite and often quoted verse in Christianity.

2 tim 2:15 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

This combined directly with what Hymenaeus and Philetus did, showed me, that one of the main aspects to "rightly dividing the Word of truth", was "rightly dividing the TIME or TIMES". And I find this to link into everything in the Word.

So misdefining words, and wrongly dividing the time when prophecy would come to pass, led to a completely false understanding of the gospel. OH we still have the written words, but when you put a slant on those words, or on prophecies, then you no longer have the right understanding.

All it takes is someone who is convinced in a lie themselves and very sincere and in a position of authority, such as a pastor, to show you a verse of scripture out of context, make a fair speach, and a lie is implanted in your mind as the truth. From that point on when ever you read that portion of scripture, that is your understanding.

Much explanation here for a simple question or comment that you made. But we have behind us 2000 years of deceit, with which we have all been infected to one degree or another. And did not the Lord state, "a little leaven, leaven's the WHOLE lump." Straight is the way and narrow the gate, a slight vere off course at the start of the journey, will in the end lead you to the other side of the world.

So you say to me: "Christ tells us to walk in the spirit to not fulfill the lust of the flesh."

I would say, what is your understanding of what the word "spirit" means? Do you or I or anyone in this day and time, have the same exact understanding of not only that word, but that verse and even the word "flesh", that they originally had in the first century? Or has our understanding of those words been slightly twisted and corrupted, to where we are not seeing it as they would have seen it?

I started by stating how Jesus came to give us an "understanding" of the truth. And then how this understnading was being twisted and corrupted, "stolen" if you must, even before the death of the original apostles. And yet we still do have the written words themselves. But what is our "understanding" of those words? And not just "a" word here and there, but of each and every word, and of those words all combined to form a whole picture, a whole understanding.

What is "spirit"? I have to know and understand what "spirit" truly is before I can walk in the "spirit". We know in the Bible, that the word "spirit" or "pneuma" is used in varrious ways, and that there are differnet kinds of "spirit". But what spirit is it speaking of here? How did they of the first century understand this saying?

Paul taught the gospel of Christ.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

It may surprise some that Christ also taught the gospel of Christ. I say this since many seem to think that Paul taught a different gospel than Christ.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luke and Mark traveled with Paul. For what we know Luke did not know Christ personally. What Luke wrote in his gospel is what Paul preached and taught.

Luke 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as THEY delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus (beloved of God), That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been (past tense)instructed.

What Luke and Mark write is the gospel Paul previously taught the Corinthians, the Collosians, the Gallitians et. et. Paul also would have taught was was written by John in the gospel of John.

Paul's letters are NOT "The Gospel", though they contain instruction regarding "The Gospel" he PREVIOUSLY taught those he wrote to. Everything Paul said, must be understood in light of what he would have taught them previously, not in and of itself, alone away from what we call the Four Gospels.

Notice that Luke does not mention Pauls name, but states; "Even as THEY delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;"

Where did this gospel Luke and Mark write come from? From THEY who were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word. Was Paul an eyewitness and minister of the Word? Yes, in that Jesus Christ came to him personally and taught him. But what he taught was the exact same thing, the other apostles taught.

Does Jesus come in person and shine a light on people today and teach them the gospel all over again personally? Some dare to think so, but the word also speaks of "another Jesus" a false Jesus, an impersonator.

Peter who was an eye wittness attests to the fact that Paul and he taught the SAME gospel, even if Paul mainly taught Gentiles and Peter Jews.

2Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

It is only in firstly knowing and understanding what we call "The Gospels", Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, that we can properly understand any of Pauls letters. For everything he said to them is in the context of what Jesus taught previously, and what Paul taught them all long before he every wrote those epistles to them.

For the most part Christians today, understand these letters in the context of what those who "came after" taught. Those who both Christ and all the original eyewittnesses, the apostles warned of. Those who have twisted the words of Paul and bascially ignored and twisted the word or gospel of Christ.

So when Paul makes a statement like: "walk in the spirit to not fulfill the lust of the flesh." It must be understood in light and context of what Christ taught, who gave the understanding of the truth. And it must be understood by us today, in the same way in which those who this truth was delivered to would have understood it. We cannot take it for granted that we have that same understanding, and it is this understanding that we must seek.

So then what did Christ teach about "walking by the spirit". What did he mean? Because Paul would have previously taught these Corintians this, and so when they read it they would have instantly known what he was talking about.

John 6:63 It is THE SPIRIT that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life.

Paul would have known this saying of Jesus Christ, and would have taught it previously to those whom he wrote to. Therefore when Paul said: "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." He meant walk in or learn and obey the WORDS of Christ. "The WORDS I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and THEY ARE LIFE."

Christ continually commanded them to "abide in his Word, to keep his sayings and commandments. He said this over and over and over and over, as many ways as you could say it. Why keep his "words"? Because those words, when implanted in the heart of man, have the ability to convert the soul, and bring forth the power of the spirit of God, the power of the "WORD" of God.

To "believe" in Christ, in the first century, meant to believe everything he SAID, understand it rightly and then practice it. Those who innitially believed after hearing, believed "on" Christ, but as yet did not have his WORD IN them. To have his Word abiding in you, that is REMAINING in you was to have Chirst IN you.

1 John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Obviously if this statement is true, then something is terribly wrong in Christianity. What "word" are they abiding in?

The believers of the first century were taught or delivered the truth by those who were "eyewittnesses" of what Christ did and taught. Yet Peter states that we have something even more precious than having an eyewittness to that truth. That is we have something better than Peter, Paul, or John being here in the flesh to teach us.

2 Peter 1:13 (Writing to people who knew the original truth) I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. (How would they have them always in remembrance? Because he WROTE them down.)

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

They heard the "audible" void of God. They followed the Son of God around and heard his "audible" voice and were taught by him personally. Yet Peter states next:

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

What is the "MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY", more sure than an audible voice of God, who is a "spirit"? What could be better than hearing it from an eyewittness or the spirits mouth himself?

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the SCRIPTURE is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The SCRIPTURE, the WRITINGS are more sure than an audible voice or eyewittness. An eyewittness can later change his mind, or forget. A spirit can decieve and mislead, and impersonate the true God. But the written Word stands and abides forever. Once it's WRITTEN down, it's established and unchangable.

How do we today come to an accurate understanding of the original gospel?

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I WROTE afore in few words, Whereby, when YE READ, YE MAY UNDERSTAND my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Now you may say, "Well see there it's revealed to you by the "spirit". But that is not what it says, it says it was revealed TO THEM by the spirit and then THEY WROTE it down, and now WE understand by READING what they wrote.

What they wrote is as good, in fact according to what Peter said, it is BETTER than them telling us in person, or even the audible voice of God. Peter said, it's like a lamp that shines in a dark place. "Let your lamp or light so shine among men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven". Let that word of Christ so dwell in you richly, that you can ask for what you will and it will be done unto you. For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous and his ears are open to their cry, but he face of the Lord is against them that do (practice)evil to cut of the remembrance of them from the earth. And there is no respect of persons with God.

Chirst committed the Word of reconciliation, the gospel, to the apostles. The taught it and wrote it down. They were then to teach able men who were able to teach others. They were given the "stewardship" of the Word, the Gospel, the teachings and commandments of Christ. THEY LOST THEM, and a perverted understanding of those written words was substituted in it's place.

Jude tells those believers he wrote to that they must earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered unto the saints, for certain men crept in unaware and changed it. Before you can earnestly contend for that original faith, you must RECOVER what has been lost, meaning the original understanding of that faith. Most people who think they are contending for the faith, are simply contending for a false gospel they inherited from generations past.

We got a good start durring the Reformation, but then as usual men began to follow men and their teachings again, rather than pressing on towards recovering the truth. Every time truth is recovered the devil will come in men, or in a spirit impersonating the Holy Spirit, and steal that understanding by false teaching and men receiving false revelations.

Satan does not care where you are OFF, as long as you are OFF somewhere. It takes very little to create a detour away from the straight and narrow gate.

Even Paul stated:

Gal. 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

And:

2 Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, NEITHER BY SPIRIT, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Let no man deceive you by ANY MEANS. One major way people get deceived is by SPIRIT, or a spirit, or an "angel from heaven", which is a spirit. They look for that "spiritual" experience, that "contemplative prayer" thing, what the mystics called exstacy. That is why we are to learn to walk by the WORDS of Christ, which are SPIRIT and life, and change not.

You stated: "You make it sound like I have to do step one...then step two and so on? If I am mistaken, explain this please."

There is an interesting word used here in this scripture.

Heb 6:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one TEACH YOU AGAIN which be THE FIRST PRINCIPLES of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. or every one that useth milk is UNSKILFUL IN THE WORD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

The "FIRST PRINCIPLES" of the oracles of God. Paul states, they were already taught these things, but needed to be taught again, and that by now they should have been teachers of these things. And that these "first principles" were directly related to the WORD of righteousness, which would be the Gospel (as Paul stated: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation, and states that therein is the righteousness of God revealed.)

"First Principles" or "arche stoicheion", first or beggining, you have to "begin" somewhere. And principles or stocheion meaning to stand or go in order, advance in STEPS or rows. first beginning, first principle, element of learning also traslated "rudiments" in Col. 2:8, where we are told to BEWARE of philosphy and it's "rudiments" or principles of learning.

Again this word is used a verse later.

Heb 6:1 1 Therefore leaving the PRINCIPLES of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

What he calls the "first principles of the oracles of God" in Heb 5:12, he names "the principles of the doctrine of Christ", in Heb 6:1.

Then he gives what those first principles, those first "steps", those first elementary rudiments of learning the "Word of righteousness", the Gospel are in Heb 6:1-2

the foundation of
1. repentance from dead works,
2. and of faith toward God,
3. Of the doctrine of baptisms,
4. and of laying on of hands,
5. and of resurrection of the dead,
6. and of eternal judgment.

A true and accurate knowledge of these six first and primary teachings of Chrsit, should have been the foundation that was laid in our lives.

To the extent that we understand how everything which Christ and the apostles taught falls somewhere under, or is built upon this foundation, it the extent that we know the truth.

What was the FIRST thing Jesus said, when he started his ministry?

"Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand".

What was the second thing he taught?

To have faith in God.

In and of itself, is quite a study, research and teaching, in seeing just exactly how what Christ and the apostles taught falls under these elemetary principles of learning.

You said you sense a pattern of works? There are as it may be so kinds of works in the world and in the Word, what kind of works do you sense?

Is it these?

Matt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Or these?

Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Or these?

Matt 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Or these?

John 8:39 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

Or These?

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
(Christians are more than willing to want to do these kinds of works.)

Or these?

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Or these?

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God before ordained that we should walk in the good works of Christ. Not just the "greater" which by the way few if any Christians every really truly do. But as Jesus said "The works that I do, they shall do also."

Christ taught the gospel, we learn the gospel and follow it, and do as he did. For a large extent this deals with moral and heart issues in every day life. When we learn to walk as he walked and do as he did, and speak as he spoke, then we will be IN him. His words will abide in us, because we have been abiding in his word, reading his Word, putting it in our hearts.

However we must recover the original understanding, which is reletivly simple to do if we would but READ everything in CONTEXT, and come to the realization that everything we may hold to be the truth, is suspect to error.

The believers of the first century became called Christians, in a derrogitory sense by the people of that time. This was due to the fact that THEY KNEW they had to get Christ IN them, and this was done by getting Christ's WORDS to live in them, and to be obedient to them.

Faith, or the words of Christ come by hearing, which means to understand and obey the Word of God as expounded by Christ, given to the apostles who then wrote it down.

That "SPIRIT", OR those "WORDS", when understood correctly and put in the heart of man have the spiritual power of God latent within them. This is why the adversary works so hard at corrupting the Word of truth.

Blessings in Christ,
El Harris

(please excuse the fact, that I did not spell check this letter.)

The pattern was set and formed and made by Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of our faith.

Christians tend to lump every thing one might do, under the same catigory the same word of "works".

1 Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Titus 2:6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewin uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

I sense pattern of works. You are correct and I agree that it is not instantaneous be learned as we walk with the Lord, since He has promised to accomplish what He has started.

My sinful nature is most evident when I focus on MY sinful nature.

Diane

elharris:
In reference to the beginning of this post, where you state the following,

[i]You say that 2nd Peter 1:4 states; "We have become partakers of the divine nature!" But here is 2nd Peter 1:4 compaired with what you said it said, and it dose not say that.[/i]

[i]2 Pet 1:4 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye MIGHT BE partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.[/i]

[i]You say, "We HAVE BECOME partakers", Peter said "We MIGHT BE partakers".[/i][i]Peter makes it optional, as in, well you MIGHT and you MIGHT not.[/i]

If I may, when "might be" is used in the KJV, it should be read as "may be able to be", in the sense that what was not able to be done before is now possible and attainable. To assume it means "maybe" or "might/might not" as we now use it is incorrect.
Look up the KJV phrase "might be fulfilled" in your Strongs, particularly in the gospels referring to the prophetic fulfillment of the Messiah Jesus. The term "might be" could certainly not mean what you have assumed it to mean, especially when prefacing fulfilled prophesy.

As for the rest of your post, thanks for taking the time to post it. I think that when someone speaks of a "pure nature devoid of sin" they are referring to what wesley propegated, a second work of grace, "entire sanctification", an event that happens at some subjective point in time after initial conversion.
thanks,
Joe

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