The elect

I have been reading a lot about predesination or election. It seems to go like this from what I can understand...

Being born again is the work of the holy spirit, which leads to faith, but God saves who he will save, and hardens the hard of those he will harden.

If we are born into sin, if we can't not sin, because we were born radially depraved...

Is it loving of God to not lead all men to be born again? Why would he harden the hearts of some so they are desinated to hell?

John 6:37 If you go to Christ in faith, you won't be turned away.
Rom 6:23 One is earned. One is a gift.

A true understanding of grace is one of the hardest doctrines to handle. We always want something to merit our way in. Grace is a fearful thing. I believe that's why John Newton wrote in his famous hymn, 'Twas Grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved...' Like the prodigal coming back and being fearful of the union, and then relieved.

God is not like us. We'd give salvation to those who earn it. So my friend, if you come to Christ for His righteousness, for all of it, as a child with empty hands, you too can be adopted.

It's good to look into these things. But God will do what He does, and we will do what we can. Who are we to talk back to God? If you come to Christ, you will not be cast away.

And lastly, we in the church have been given the ministry of reconciliation, not condemnation.
2 Cor 5:17-21

We don't judge God, nor those outside the church.

Knowing the terror of the Lord, Please be reconciled.

Greetings agnostic:

First of all, predestination is not election as some have mistaken. Go to the Lord in true sincerity and ask him to show you the difference between the two, and then do a separate word study on them. I believe that it will become evident to you that there has been an unlawful amalgamation of these two concepts in order to buttress a false teaching dominating most of what is called, "evangelicalism."

Concerning election there is a key thing to keep in mind when studying the scriptures. Election is Christocentric and not particular men. Only Christ is the true sinless God/man and therefore the election of God is in him, not in me or you. Election is only in the Son. Eternal life is only in the Son. Therefore he that has THE SON has life, and he that has not THE SON of GOD has not life. It's all about Jesus and to him alone be all the glory, honor, power, and dominion both now and forever.

In light of this is clear that the election of God only encompasses individuals as they bow in repentance and faith in the finished work of salvation accomplish by the Son on the cross. The election of God does not encompasses individuals unconditionally as some postulate. In fact the election of God encompasses all men potentially, no man unconditionally, the "Israel of God" efficiently.

agnostic wrote:
Being born again is the work of the holy spirit, which leads to faith,

but God saves who he will save, and hardens the hard of those he will harden.

He will harden those who get offended at the Gospel and resist Him.

If we are born into sin, if we can't not sin, because we were born radically depraved...

Is it loving of God to not lead all men to be born again?

Why would he harden the hearts of some so they are desinated to hell?

Here is the answer to your question?

[b]Pro 1:24[/b] [color=990000]Because I have called, and you refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
[b]:25[/b] But you have ignored all my counsel, and would have none of my reproof:
[b]:26[/b] I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes;
[b]:27[/b] When your terror comes as desolation, and your destruction comes as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish comes upon you.
[b]:28[/b] Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
[b]:29[/b] Because they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
[b]:30[/b] They would have none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
[b]:31[/b] Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.[/color]

Quote:

Jimotheus wrote;

""Only Christ is the true sinless God/man and therefore the election of God is in him, not in me or you. Election is only in the Son. Eternal life is only in the Son. Therefore he that has THE SON has life, and he that has not THE SON of GOD has not life""

In other words Election is not being predistinated to heaven or hell, but to be in Christ conformed to His image.

Romans 8:29-31 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

All this before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4-9 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

This mystery, Paul says, "it is Christ in you the hope of Glory". This is our Election, to be in Christ, Him being made unto us and in us by the Father, "wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.

Not predestinated or elected to heaven or hell, but to be in Christ and conformed to His image.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Elect; God's favorites, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased and it is Him that is now birthed in us and makes us His Elect in Christ.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1588. eklektos
Search for G1588 in KJVSL
eklektoV eklektos ek-lek-tos'
from 1586; select; by implication, favorite:--chosen, elect.

In Christ: Phillip

Why would he harden the hearts of some so they are destined to hell?

This concept of God hardening hearts has troubled me for years - and I was raised on the WORD, went to parochial schools, Bible Schools and presently am 62 years old - until just recently. (Some truths take years before its meaning finally makes sense.)

We read about it first (I think) when Moses wanted to lead the Israelites out of Egypt. Initially Pharaoh would harden his heart against Moses plea for official permission to lead the people out of Egypt. Then later Scripture says the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. Now, how can this be? Is God not merciful? Does he not want all to be saved? Yes. So, how do you explain God's heartening of Pharaoh's heart (and others as well)?

This is the the insight that came to me, really simple, actually.

God is very creative. In his economy NOTHING, NOBODY goes to waste. EVERYTHING is used for a purpose. He will work it out where he can use them to his benefit somewhere, somehow.

(There was an incident which the Lord used to help me understand this truth. I visited a friend who is a professional quilter. She designs quilts and enters them in shows and has won prestigious awards. When I was there she showed me a project she was working on and the problem she encountered. When I saw that, I would have thrown it away and started anew - fixing it would have been too time consuming and maddening. But no, she was thinking how she could fix it in a nontraditional way. Her creativity was at work. She was working to salvage a bad situation and likely then get rewarded for it!)

So it was that Pharaoh was at heart an obstinate man. He thought only for himself, all things had to serve him. He was not about to surrender his authority to anyone else. But even a man like Pharaoh could change his mind so that in a moment of 'compromise' he just might allow the Israelites to go to the wilderness to worship. But he still had a heart set against God. He was not about to change and God knew that. (This point is very important to understand.) Lest he change his mind, God hardened his heart so he could manipulate him better. The Israelites had a few lessons they needed to learn which could not have happened if Pharaoh would have changed his mind. God had a plan in how he was going to deal with the Israelites and he was going to use Pharaoh to this end.

So a fellow that most of us would have discarded onto the trash heap, God used in a very creative way. Pharaoh was destined to hell, was not about to change and God knew all this, hence he could harden his heart to make His work easier.

This incident demonstrates how "all things work together for good to those who love the LORD."

And I suspect God still works this way today.

Make sense? hope it helps...

ginnyrose

So a fellow that most of us would have discarded onto the trash heap, God used in a very creative way. Pharaoh was destined to hell, was not about to change and God knew all this, hence he could harden his heart to make His work easier. This incident demonstrates how "all things work together for good to those who love the LORD." And I suspect God still works this way today. Make sense? hope it helps... ginnyrose

Ginnyrose,

You might also want to consider that Pharaoh's heart was never as bad as it could have been because of God's grace to him and when God chose to, He merely removed the restraining grace he had given to Pharaoh without actually affirmatively hardening Pharaoh's heart at all. HE works that way ( adding restraining grace and removing it ) all the time in people's lives to, as you point out, accomplish His greater purposes for His people. In this way, man's responsibility for his own actions is preserved even where God does the hardening in this sense.

ginnyrose wrote:

Why would he harden the hearts of some so they are destined to hell?

Lest he change his mind, God hardened his heart so he could manipulate him better.

This is how God offended Pharaoh to harden his heart.

The Israelites had a few lessons they needed to learn which could not have happened if Pharaoh would have changed his mind. God had a plan in how he was going to deal with the Israelites and he was going to use Pharaoh to this end

This is nonsense; manipulative deception on God's account.

Pharaoh was destined to hell

hence he could harden his heart to make His work easier.

Pharaoh hardened his heart as he resisted God & denied HIS sovereignty.
If God's intention was to use Pharaoh, no matter what if he obeyed or disobeyed, who then can resist His intention?
Since Pharaoh disobeyed God/Moses, then God used the hardness of pharaoh's heart instead of his obedience.

However, Pharaoh was always able to repent & was expected to, that is why he is guilty. Pharaoh would not be guilty if God wanted Pharaoh to harden his heart, because that would be doing God's will, which is commendable.

Therefore, Stop thinking that God's will was for Pharaoh to harden his heart!!!

Make sense?

You make God deceptively manipulate Pharaoh.

Those are some pretty complex answers to preserve, it seems, man's sovereignty. But didn't God tell Moses that he'd harden Pharoah's heart before Moses even left for Egypt?...

[b]Ex 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.[/b]

In Romans 9 we read that Paul's opponents had problems with this, saying, 'how can God then find fault seeing as none can resist his will?'

God will get him glory through judgement as well as mercy. It's that simple.
I know it's difficult to accept, but as God said, 'This was your mistake, I'm not like you..' He will have mercy on whom he'll have mercy.

God and man can't both be sovereign.

As far as your comment about God never wanting anything but obedience, Logic, how do you explain

Rev 17:17
Acts 2:23

John Piper's sermon on 'The 2 wills of God' is a good read on this subject.

Charles Spurgeon said that there is no tension between man's responsibility and God's sovereignty, for in scripture the two are friends. One can't be sacrificed for the other. They are both doctrinal truths. Man can't be made sovereign to defend his accountability. Even if it is hard to comprehend.

I don't say these things to be difficult. I found them as hard to accept as anyone else has.

I wrote a long and detailed response, but then accidentally clicked the SI banner and all was lost!

At least I was edified.

Here's an article which may prove helpful.

[b]Does God love all people equally?[/b]

As is the case with many terms, the word 'love' has several different meanings as it relates to God's interaction with creatures. Perhaps the most plain definition is that Divine love is God's sovereign and sincere determination to do benevolently towards others [b]to the full extent that doing so agrees with His perfect wisdom and will[/b]. As we shall see, His wisdom and will do not predicate alike benevolence for all creatures. Let us look specifically at two categories, beginning with sinners.

In relation to sinners, the word love is used to describe His patient withholding of just curses. For example, we read that God loved the nation of Israel, and therefore held back judgments for a time. Bear in mind that Israel included many - if not mostly - reprobate idolaters. God patiently extended mercies to them, despite all the while having what is called hatred for them as well. God hates all workers of iniquity. [Psalm 5:5] His ways are not our ways.

We may better understand this apparent duality of Divine intentions by appreciating the relationship between sin, justice, and grace. No sinner deserves for God to withhold judgment and damnation. Not for one minute, one second. The just nature of God may at any time require the recompense of their wicked actions. However, God is innately good; therefore, according to the extent of grace He has determined to reveal in them, He not only preserves the earthly lives of these objects of His righteous anger but gives many blessings such as health, relationships, and pleasure. These gifts are given with unfeigned benevolence even to those who pervert and worship created things in place of their Creator.

No inconsistency of Divine character may be found in God's withdrawing of this kindness from any sinner. To assert otherwise would deny the basic fact that such long-suffering was graciously given in the first place. Sinners cannot make demands of God, nor is God motivated to do sinners kindly for any other reason that He sees fit to glorify His name through the revelation of His patience towards them. When God has finished with His gracious favors and mercies, and they have continued in willful rebellion, then His mode of self-glorification is changed to their destruction. They become eternal markers of holy justice, vessels of wrath fitted to damnation.

There is only one sense in which God's love towards sinners may be thought of as irrevocable and filial. This Fatherly type of love is reserved for the Elect only, as it was given to them from eternity by virtue of their [b]eternal adoption in Christ[/b]. From before time God elected certain sinners to be joint-heirs with Christ, not on virtue of their work but by His free grace. Again, their election was not based upon any foreseen work or faithfulness in them, nor was their choice arbitrarily random, but was made entirely in the good and secret wisdom of God.

It must be remembered that with regards to their sins, God once possessed a just hatred even of those sinners whom He elected, for God is no respecter of persons. But in respect of the death of Christ, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, the Father's covenantal love for the Elect is eternal and proceeds their conversion in time. In other words, before all times God placed His eternal love upon sinners whom He hated justly.

What may be said of those whom the Father did not elect? God has wisely chosen instead to magnify His patience and generosity through His temporary merciful dealings and sincere pleadings, providences and deliverances of them. Alas, none of these wretched persons heed the strivings of God's Spirit to seek salvation by grace through faith in Christ, but willfully plunge onward in love of sin. Therefore they are concluded as objects of His wrath. When and as He determines, God removes these reprobates into judgment, never again to receive expressions of His gracious benevolence upon them.

In consideration of God's various forms and extents of graciousness towards His creatures, we may accept all God does as the most perfect design of His infinite wisdom. There could have been no alternate way, for had there been another, better way, He would certainly have done it. Let us be content to cover our mouths and say with Job, Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Is it loving of God to not lead all men to be born again? Why would he harden the hearts of some so they are desinated to hell?

Exodus 7:3-4 says, “But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my people the Israelites.” It seems unjust for God to harden Pharaoh’s heart and then to punish Pharaoh and Egypt for what Pharaoh decided when his heart was hardened. Why would God harden Pharaoh’s heart just so He could judge Egypt more severely with additional plagues?

First, Pharaoh was not an innocent or godly man. He was a brutal dictator overseeing the terrible abuse and oppression of the Israelites, who likely numbered over 1.5 million people at that time. The Egyptian pharaohs had enslaved the Israelites for 400 years. A previous pharaoh—possibly even the pharaoh in question—ordered that male Israelite babies be killed at birth (Exodus 1:16). The pharaoh God hardened was an evil man, and the nation he ruled agreed with, or at least did not oppose, his evil actions.

Second, before the first few plagues, Pharaoh hardened his own heart against letting the Israelites go. “Pharaoh's heart became hard” (Exodus 7:13, 22; 8:19). “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:15). “But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:32). Pharaoh could have spared Egypt of all the plagues if he had not hardened his own heart. God was giving Pharaoh increasingly severe warnings of the judgment that was to come. Pharaoh chose to bring judgment on himself and on his nation by hardening his own heart against God’s commands.

As a result of Pharaoh’s hard-heartedness, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart even further, allowing for the last few plagues (Exodus 9:12; 10:20, 27). Pharaoh and Egypt had brought these judgments on themselves with 400 years of slavery and mass murder. Since the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and Pharaoh and Egypt had horribly sinned against God, it would have been just if God had completely annihilated Egypt. Therefore, God’s hardening Pharaoh’s heart was not unjust, and His bringing additional plagues against Egypt was not unjust. The plagues, as terrible as they were, actually demonstrate God’s mercy in not completely destroying Egypt, which would have been a perfectly just penalty.

Romans 9:17-18 declares, “For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: ‘I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.’ Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.” From a human perspective, it seems wrong for God to harden a person and then punish the person He has hardened. Biblically speaking, however, we have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23), and the just penalty for that sin is death (Romans 6:23). Therefore, God’s hardening and punishing a person is not unjust; it is actually merciful in comparison to what the person deserves [url=http://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden-Pharaoh-heart.html]Source[/url]

Logic,

The issue here is God's sovereignty. He knew Pharaoh would never yield his life to him. So He used this rebellious person to accomplish his ends. Was God manipulating Pharaoh? Yes. God was in control. He knew the fellow would never repent so he used him to teach the Israelites some lessons about HIS own power and sovereignty.

And there are more lessons similar in the WORD which make no sense at all unless you understand something about the sovereignty of God. None of these things make sense at all unless you have surrendered your need to understand God's ways in life. And I promise you there will be plenty of incidents that make no sense at all and you wonder where God is in all this mix.

And do not forget Romans 8:28. It informs us that ALL things work together for good to those who love the Lord. Notice it says ALL, not some.

In God's economy nothing goes to waste. Don't ever forget that.

Sorry you cannot understand this...

ginnyrose

Mk 10:15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

Does God love all people equally? As is the case with many terms, the word 'love' has several different meanings as it relates to God's interaction with creatures. Perhaps the most plain definition is that Divine love is God's sovereign and sincere determination to do benevolently towards others to the full extent that doing so agrees with His perfect wisdom and will. As we shall see, His wisdom and will do not predicate alike benevolence for all creatures. Let us look specifically at two categories, beginning with sinners.... etc...

The answer to the question: "Does God love all people equally?" is YES!

Jn 3:16 “For GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD that he gave his one and only Son, that WHOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

This is something to embrace, and enjoy, and to trust in, as a child would accept a desirable gift from a loving Father.

No need for marathon discussions, I think. If pharaoh would not believe in God (God is omniscient), then God can and will use him as a prop to strengthen the faith of those who will believe --- and that goes for everyone else.

Thanks for your replies, I guess I might just start by reading the new testament again.

Leo-Grace, it's not simple for me because things not making sense make me think that perhaps it's not true, or if it is, do I want to a God who would send nearly all of my family and friends to hell (none of them are christians). Plus I believe in evolution so I have to contend with which parts are literal which not etc.

Anyway I will keep reading for now!

ginnyrose wrote:
Logic,

The issue here is God's sovereignty.

How is it an issue of God's sovereignty?

He knew Pharaoh would never yield his life to him. So He used this rebellious person to accomplish his ends.

God's will was, as a fact that He wanted Pharaoh to free Israel.
You make it so God's will was that Pharaoh would not free Israel so He hardened Pharaoh's haert so that he wouldn't.

If Pharaoh really did what God wanted (not freeing Israel), that would be commendable.

Was God manipulating Pharaoh? Yes.

God did not manipulate Pharaoh.
God was [b]trying[/b] to manipulate Pharaoh so that he would repent and free Israel, but he didn't and that is why he was being judged.

God uses judgement to turn people to Himself. It had the opposite affect on Pharaoh; even though God knew it would). However, God must judge sin.

Just like Nineveh. God used the news of His judgment to turn the people to repent.

He knew the fellow would never repent so he used him to teach the Israelites some lessons about HIS own power and sovereignty.

As a fact that Pharaoh hardened his heart, God used that instead of his compliance to free Israel.
God used whatever Pharaoh gave Him, which was not God's will (command to free Israel).

If God's intention was to use pharaoh in order to make him see HIS power, and that God's name may resound in the entire earth. (Exod 9:16) no matter what happens (pharaoh obeying or not); who then can resist God's intention?

However, Pharaoh hardened his own heart, so God used that instead of his compliance to His command.
Pharaoh was always able to repent & was expected to; same goes for all of creation.

And there are more lessons similar in the WORD which make no sense at all unless you understand something about the sovereignty of God.

However, you seem to be confused about the integrety of God, deceptive manipulation towards his creation.
What I mean about manipulative deception on God's account is that you say God commands one thing, but realy (secretly) wants another.
So as to command something and make it so that the one being commanded does not do the command but do HIS secret will.

This is what you are implying.

None of these things make sense at all unless you have surrendered your need to understand God's ways in life.

And I promise you there will be plenty of incidents that make no sense at all and you wonder where God is in all this mix.

Sorry you cannot understand this..

Hi i need help. Are you online?

hi asnostic, this is not the question you should ask if you really want answers to life. anyone who claims the full truth on this run from... the question is who is Jesus and is He who He claimed to be or weclaim He is.jimp i pray you find eternal life.

Logic,

I'm confused as to how your view makes sense "in reality".

In reality, God's eternal purpose was to save men through Christ. Certain events in history [b]have[/b] to happen for that to take place, and a lot of these events were sinful. It was God's will that they take place, yet God remains free from being the author of sin. Certain sinful actions (Judas' betrayal, Pilate's condemnation) caused Jesus to be crucified, yet Peter claims it was God's will for these things to happen.