Israel Set in Their Own Land

Brothers and Sisters

I have been doing a verse by verse study through Isaiah. One of the things I have noticed is the many promises to Jacob and Israel. Many of these seem to be aimed more at the New Testament body of believers rather than the physical present nation of Israel.

I was curious if any of you or any Bible scholars believe that many of the Old Testament promises are not necessarily to be fulfilled toward Jews who live in the country of Israel, but rather more towards the spiritual Israel; the Church.

I know that the physical nation of Israel was regained and so forth, and have always heard what I thought was all the Old Testament promises being applied to them. I have never heard that when Jesus comes back He will rule a nation of Christians who will be assembled from the four corners of the globe, but rather almost like He will being an Israeli king. But I would think that Christ would rule a nation of blood-bought believers, rejecting Jews and Gentiles alike who have trampled His blood under foot.

Curious of your thoughts and about what you have heard or been taught on this.

Dear letsgetbusy,

I was curious if any of you or any Bible scholars believe that many of the Old Testament promises are not necessarily to be fulfilled toward Jews who live in the country of Israel, but rather more towards the spiritual Israel; the Church.

I hope this helps.

Leo

Curious of your thoughts and about what you have heard or been taught on this.

I'll give you a little hint at something wonderful ;)

Look at Matthew 2:15 and see who Matthew is applying it to. Then go back and look at who the original passage was about.

Also consider that Christ was "the true vine" which was a name for Israel.

Christ is the true Israel, the one who truly obeyed perfectly, kept the Law perfectly etc.

Have fun with this and be amazed at God's grace to us in Christ.

Oh yeah and don't think Replacement, but rather Expansion.

If Christ is the true Israel, then who is the true Israel today? "Seated with Christ in heavenly places"? Who are these? If Christ in you is the hope of glory, where is our glory? In heavenly places? Who is preparing a place with many mansions and for who is He preparing this place for? The True Israel, that is The, "Christ in you the hope of glory", ones? True Israel is Christ in you the hope of glory, a spiritual realm of living. Not an earthly realm which is for earthly Israel on this earth in the millennial reign over this whole earth with earthly Israel being what they were intended for in the first place, to evangelize the whole world, which they failed the first time, but won't the second time with Christ on David's throne.

The heavenly kingdom and the earthly kingdom. The Born Again in Israel, that is Christ, is the heavenly and The earthly is Jesus Christ and His whole heavenly kingdom ruling and reigning from David's Thorne in the new Jerusalem.

The heavenly kingdom was already presented to earthly Israel and they rejected Him, but they will receive Him in His earthly reign for 1000 years, Israel as the Nation of God, The Children of Israel already chosen for their earthly kingdom. They rejected their heavenly kingdom, that is Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

As I don't believe in a literal 100 year reign, I can't really reply.

God has been after a people, He has redeemed them in Christ and given them the righteousness that was required of Israel in the OT. They were to be a "city on a hill" in a sense, declaring the glory of God to the nations.

Those who are rebirthed into Christ, are one people, one community who are to show forth the glory of God to the nations.

As for natural Israel, they are just as lost as any unsaved person or group of people, and from them some shall be saved. They don't have any special line to God at all.

I think that John makes it clear to all people that whoever does not honor the Son, does not honor the Father(John 5:23) and since that is true, no one has any special road to the Kingdom apart from Christ.

I'd like to get your take on Matthew 2:15 and its application to Christ by the NT as in the OT is was clearly a reference to Israel, as was the vine.

We can't just write these off(not saying you are at all)because they might not fit in with what we have held as truth.

Either way, let love be what marks our words, as this is not an essential to Christian faith.

Most Christians who have had any Bible training at all know the theme of the in Christ position.
But not many know the Christ that is in them. This is essential to know what God's plan before the foundation of the world is all about.

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Any saved person that is in Christ has Christ the person in themselves, Romans 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

"None of His", harsh words, but this is the essential part of the in Christ position Paul speaks about in all his epistles. This is the heavenly realm the born again live in. The earthly promises to Israel must be fulfilled and they will be, as stated in Revelations many times.

So anything before the foundation of the world is God's positional plan for those in Christ and Christ in them. Any time God's chosen people of Israel are mentioned, they are from the foundation of the world.

Mt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Lu 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

All these pertain to earthly Israel and their promises that God will not repent of. These are not those that enter into His rest, as He swore.

Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

These are those that were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the World, without Law, no condemnation, born again son's of God, birthed by Incorruptable Seed of the Father, which is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". Only rebirthed when the Corn of Wheat, Jesus Christ fell into the ground and die, then those are produced by much fruit of Christ's resurrection and life being birthed in the believer, "That Jesus Christ is the Son of God".

1 Peter 1:18-23 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

This is our life before the foundation of the World.

In Christ: Phillip

Matt 2:15
Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Matthew 2:1

CHAPTER 2

2. The King Worshipped by Gentiles; Jerusalem in Ignorance of Him; the Child Persecuted.
1. The Visit of the Wise Men. 2:1-12.
2. The Flight into Egypt. 2:13-18.
3. The Return from Egypt. 2:19-23.
The authenticity of the story of the visit of the wise men seeking the new-born King of the Jews has been doubted, because no other Evangelist reports this incident. It belongs properly into the Gospel, in which our Lord is portrayed as the King. This is the reason of its being reported only in Matthew's Gospel. The wise men were not three persons, nor were they Kings. It must have been a larger company, for it troubled Herod and all Jerusalem with him. Nor did the visit take place immediately after the birth of our Lord. The correct rendering of the first verse is, "But Jesus having been born," that is, some time after and not immediately after. The pictures which portray the wise men worshipping the child in a stable are unscriptural, for it says they found the young child in a house. It was most likely a year after His birth, that the wise men from the East appeared. Lu 2:41 shows that His parents went to Jerusalem every year; they must then also have visited Bethlehem again.

The promised King is unknown in His own city, Jerusalem. His own people are ignorant of Him. Gentiles come first to do Him homage. The ecclesiastical authorities are indifferent to His claims, the civil ruler, Herod, the King, hates Him, and as Satan's instrument seeks His life. The history of the King and His Kingdom is outlined in this story. His own are not going to receive Him. The indifference of the chief priests and scribes points to their coming antagonism. But Gentiles seek Him first. Simeon's prophetic song is seen here in its coming fulfillment, "A light to lighten the Gentiles," but in the end also, after God's purpose in this age is accomplished, "the glory of thy people Israel" (Lu 2:32). They bring gold, typical of divinity; frankincense, indicating the fragrance of His life and worship; and myrrh, that which is used in burial, a hint as to His death. Note that this is not a fulfillment of Isa 9:6. That passage refers to the time when the Kingdom is set up on earth. Myrrh in Isaiah is not mentioned.

Throughout the chapter the child always occupies the first and prominent place. It is never "Mary and the child," or "the mother and the child," but "the little child and His mother"--The child is above the mother. What a rebuke to the Romish church, which in idolatry puts the mother above the child.

See Ho 11:1 on the flight to Egypt and the return. All indicates what is to be done to Him, who is the King.

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Hosea 9:10

CHAPTER 9:10-11:11

Retrospect, Israel's Failure and Ruin

1. Israel once beloved, now fugitive wanderers (9:10-17)
2. Their guilt and punishment (10:1-11)
3. Exhortation and rebuke (10:12-15)
4. The mercy of a merciful God (11:1-11)
Verses 10-17. Like a wayfaring man who finds grapes and figs in the desert and delights in them, so the Lord found Israel in the desert and they were His pleasure when He led them out of Egypt. But they requited His love by going after Baal-peor, one of the filthiest gods of heathendom. To this they consecrated themselves and practiced their vile abominations. Therefore the glory which He had given to His people will fly away like a bird and their licentious worship of unnatural vices would avenge itself so that there would be no pregnancy and no birth, the promised increase would stop. It seems verses 14-17 are an outburst of the prophet. How literally the sentence has been fulfilled. "They will be wanderers."

Chapter 10:1-11. Here is another retrospect, Israel once called to be a thriving vine (not empty), called to be fruitful; but Israel did not bring forth the expected fruit. As the nation abounded and prospered they increased their idol altars; as the land yielded its increase in the same measure they made their images. Their heart was smooth, or deceitful, for this they will now have to suffer. "Their heart is smooth; now will they make expiation." They will have no more king. The smooth or deceitful heart is described in verse 4, while in the verse which follows the judgment upon their calves they worshipped is announced. It, the calf, will be carried to Assyria to be made a present of to the king. The high places will be destroyed and thorns and thistles will overgrow its altars. Then they will say to the mountains, "Cover us!" and to the hills, "Fall upon us!" Well, it is to read In connection with this prophetic statement what our Lord said about the judgment of Jerusalem in Lu 23:30 and what is written in connection with the breaking of the sixth seal in Re 6:16.

Gibeah is mentioned (verse 9). The corruption of Gibeah is also noted in chapter 9:9. The horrible abomination of Gibeah is recorded in Jg 19 in consequence of which the tribe of Benjamin was almost wiped out. And the people had become as wicked and guilty as Benjamin at Gibeah. The nations are now to be used to punish Israel. "And the nations will gather themselves against them, when I bind them for their offenses" (verse 10, literal translation).

Verses 12-15. Here is a break in the judgment message. If they would return to the Lord and would sow righteousness, they would reap mercy. But such sowing is impossible unless the fallow ground is broken up, that is, true repentance and a heart return unto the Lord. "For it is time to seek the Lord, until He come and rain righteousness upon you." In what infinite patience He waited for the repentance of His people! But while He would save them, they would not! Still God's gifts and calling are without repentance and the day will come when a remnant of Israel will seek the Lord; then He will come and rain righteousness upon them.

How different was their condition! The Lord rebukes them, for they had ploughed wickedness, and reaped iniquity. The noise of war is now heard; Shalman (a contracted form of Shalmanezer, the King of Assyria) is advancing and shall destroy all their fortresses as he destroyed Beth-arbel. (There is no further record of Beth-arbel and its destruction.) And who was responsible for all this havoc and the impending calamity? "Thus has Bethel done to you, for the evil of your great evil. In the early morning the king of Israel shall be utterly cut off." Bethel was the seat of Israel's idolatry, it drew God's wrath and finally ended the monarchy in Israel and their national existence.

Chapter 11:1-11. This chapter starts with a beautiful allusion to Israel's youth, when in sovereign love He called Israel, His firstborn son, out of Egypt, redeeming them by blood and power (Ex 4:22-23). But this passage is quoted in the second chapter of the Gospel of Matthew: "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called My Son" (Mt 2:15). The blending together of Israel and Christ is very interesting. Christ is the true Israel and goes through the entire history of the nation, without failure and in divine perfection. He was carried as an infant into the land where Israel suffered in the fiery furnace; and finally He died for that nation and in some future day through Him, the true Israel (called such in Isa 49), Israel's great future and glory will come to pass.

But while the Son of God, the true Israel, was perfect and holy in all His ways, Israel was unfaithful. This record of Jehovah's faithfulness and mercy is here unfolded. He sent them prophets who called them, but they turned away from Him and gave themselves over to the Baalim and the idol-gods. How loving He had been to them! He led them, took them into His arms and healed them. He drew them with cords of love and was towards them "as those that would raise the yoke-strap over their jaws, and I reached out to them to eat" (verse 4). It is a beautiful picture of His great gentleness with them. Perhaps some of them were anxious to turn to Egypt and find a home there and thus escape the cruel Assyrian. But the Lord declares that they shall not return to Egypt, but Assyria is to be their king, because they refused to return. The sword of judgment would do its work completely (verses 6-7). Then follows a most wonderful outburst of deepest sorrow over the stubborn nation:

How should I give you up, Ephraim?
How shall I surrender thee, Israel?
How should I make thee like Admah?
Or set thee like Zeboim?
My heart is turned within me;
My repentings are kindled together.

It is the same Lord who speaks here, who centuries later stood before the city and broke out in loud weeping when He beheld the city: "If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes" (Lu 19:42). "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, ye shall not see Me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mt 23:37). How He loves His people! And though He has punished them, He does not forsake them; He will not be angry forever; He is a covenant keeping God, "For I am God and not man" (verse 9). "For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed" (Mal 3:6). And so here, this chapter of Jehovah's mercy ends with the assurance of their future restoration and blessing. "They will follow the Lord." That will be "when like a lion He roars." That is the day when He appears again as "The lion of the tribe of Judah." Then, in that day, like a bird from Egypt they will hasten back and like a dove from Assyria. "Then will I make them dwell in their houses, saith the Lord." Here is another prophecy of their restoration to their own, God-given home land.

Israel’s regathering spoken by/recorded in the prophets are fulfilled as written by the apostles in the New Testament by Messiah through the gospel.

See Hosea's prophecy Hosea 1:9,10; 2:23; see Romans 9:25,26; 1 Peter 2:9 for it's fulfillment

Again, see Isaiah's prophecy Isaiah 10:20–23 and it's fulfillment in Romans 9:27,28

Who are Jews?

Not ethnic Israel Rom.9:5–6 but the true Israel

See Gal. 6:16,3:26–29 and Romans 2:28–29

One is a Jew by faith not flesh

See Gal. 4:26 and Acts 3:22,23

Compare John 1:11-13 and Luke 21:20–22

RE: THE LAND

SEE Joshua 21:43–45 and 1 Kings 4:24,25

It's fulfillment in Hebrews 11:13–16; 12:22–23

1948 may be of some consequence, but it is not found in the prophets, nor is it the fulfillment of any promise by God.

I have been doing a verse by verse study through Isaiah. One of the things I have noticed is the many promises to Jacob and Israel. [b]Many of these seem to be aimed more at the New Testament body of believers rather than the physical present nation of Israel.[/b]

Well brother I would say that you are right on the money! Peter agrees with you, and that's always a good sign.

1 Peter 1 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Now pay close attention to what he says next about this salvation of "ours".

[b]1 Peter 1:10

Of which salvation [b]the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:[/b]

This is talking about old teatament prophets, and not just Isaiah. What did they do?

The prophesied of the GRACE that should come unto you.

Who is "you"? According to the address of he letter it is the "strangers scattered abroad". To a Jew like Peter, "strangers" are Gentiles. I believe Peter is addressing the Gentile believers.

So Peter is saying that the Old Tesament prophets prophesied of the grace that should come unto the Gentiles. Therefor could their prophecy be mainly about the Gentile church?

Now again notice closely what it says these Old Testamant prophets also did.

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

As you were seeing and stated, that as you went through Isaiah verse by verse, you saw that; "Many of these seem to be aimed more at the New Testament body of believers rather than the physical present nation of Israel."

Much of theology teaches that those prophecies were to Old Testament Israel and were fulfilled. However when you really check many of them out historically, what theologians have taught as being fulfilled never actually happened.

Well then theologians came up with another interpretation, that those prophecies were to the physical present nation of Israel.

But Peter would know more than any of them, because these same theologians have also taught that no one, could have the "spirit of Christ" in them BEFORE the day of Pentecost. AND they teach that what we know of as "the Church" today, which is mainly a gentile Church, is a "special" church, with a "special" gospel, that is totally seperate from the congregation and church of believers of the Old Testament.

But ask yourself this question. Is what we call the Old Testament, meaning all those books before you get to Matthew, REALLY Old Testament?

How does our mind work on that? It's something like this.

When we think "Old Testament", we think "The Law" subconsciously. Now we have been taught that we are not "under the Law". So therefore when we think "Old Testament" and all those books before Matthew, our brain also says NONE OF THAT IS WRITTEN TO ME OR ABOUT ME.

But now ask another question, WHEN did what we know of as "The Law", start?

Didn't it start sometime in Exodus? If so then is GENESIS "The Law"? And here is another question. Was Abraham a JEW? And look at this strange scripture.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

WHAT????

It says that, "God before preached the GOSPEL to Abraham. And the main part of that gospel was that God would justify the heathen (that's you and me, Gentiles) through faith. So then Abraham was the first one to ever hear the gospel. When God told Abraham, that in him would all the nations be blessed, it was said in a "mystery", and it meant that God would justify the heathen through faith.

So then all of what we call and know of as "The Old Testament" or "The Law", is not actually the "Old Testament" and it is not all "The Law". But if that is where you mind has been led, will you actually ever read it much? No.

So we see from Peter, that what we also call "The Old Testament Prophets", also did not prophesy to or about "The Law" and those under the Law, but about the same thing that God spoke to Abraham, that God would justify the heathen (Gentiles) through faith. This was the "grace" that would come unto them. And even Moses himself prophecied of the coming of Christ and the glory that would follow.

And Jesus also said: "Search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life, and they are they which testify of me."

Yet we read those prophecies and our mind kinda flips around. Because you read them and at first you may say, for sure, that it is referring to the Isreal, then. But then you read them and you say no, it's the Isreal in the future, but then you read them and you say, But no, this is the Gentiles. Your mind flips around. Why is that?

Because what you are reading is A MYSTERY. How is it a "mystery"?

Again what did Peter say?

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation [b]the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:[/b] Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Peter is talking about "The Mystery", the mystery of the gospel of the Kingdom of God was hidden in the prophecies of what we "call", the Old Testament, which is not ALL "Old Testament", and not ALL "The Law".

1 Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

2 Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

3 Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

4 1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

5 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

6 Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

7 Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

8 Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

9 Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

11 Ephesians 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

12 Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

13 Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

14 Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

15 Colossians 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

16 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

17 1 Timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

18 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

AND what did they preach this "mystery" out of?

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

Acts 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Romans 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Well what is one of the ways they have twisted the scriptures? By teaching us that all those books before Matthew are OLD TESTAMENT, and therefore THE LAW, and therefore not written to or about you.

Let me tell you that it was not GOD that put that divider page in your Bible, and called everything from Genesis to Malachi, "The Old Testament", and everything from Matthew through Revelations "The New Testament". That purely an addition of MEN! To Jesus, and the apostles and disciples of the Lord it is all simply "THE SCRIPTURE".

So all these men, Jesus, Peter, Paul, John and others preached the gospel OUT OF what we falsely call "The OLD Testament".

When Paul states the followng.

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

What does he mean he received it by revelaton of Jesus Christ, remembering here that Paul opened and alleged as his manner was out of the SCRIPTURES and taught the SCRIPTURES (falsely call the Old Testament)?

It means that Christ opened the eyes of his understanding to the SCRIPTURES (falsely called the Old Testament) EVERYTHING that Paul wrote about, everything he preached is contained in those SCRIPTURES.

Let's look again at what Peter said and follow it to it's conclusion.

First notice that it says their prophesy was a testamony. Like it says in Rev. that the testamony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev 19:10

1. They testified BEFOREHAND

......the sufferings of Christ AND

.......the glory that would follow.

This would mean, not only the coming of Christ, his sufferings and the glory that would follow, but all that was inbetween, as in the apostasy of the Gentile Church whch had not come into being as it now exists. So you have God describing events about an entity that would come into being and be primarily formed through languages other than Hebrew in which the "scriptures" were written.

How do you describe something that does not exist yet? You have to do it in similies or likenesses to what exists at the time. Therefore the Gentile Church, written of in the "scriptures" (falsely called OT), is done in a "likeness" of what was happening and going on with Israel at the time?

WHY is that?

It is because what we think of as the "Gentile Church" or just the "Church" today, was thought of as the following by God.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, [b]being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, [/b]and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 [b]Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;[/b]

20 And are built upon [b]the foundation of the apostles and prophets,[/b] Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

[b]What "prophets"? What we call the OT Prophets. We are built upon the foundation of the knowledge that is contained in the writings of the apostles and THE PROPHETS, like Isaiah, Jerimiah, et. et.[/b]

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

WHO are builded TOGETHER? Those believers from what we falsely call the Old Testament, and the Gentiles, they ALL make up what is called the ecclisia of God, the commonwealth of Isreal. They are not a seperate little organisum all their own, they are adopted INTO ISREAL. They did not as some abominations teach, replace Israel, they were adopted into Israel.

Now, regarding these same Old Testament prophets what does it say they did.

1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

This mystery that the Gentiles would be fellowheirs with Israel, adopted into and also CALLED ISRAEL, was HIDDEN FROM ANGELS.

WHY?

1 Cor 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
hidden Psalms 8:2, Matt 11:25, 1st Cor 1:27, 2nd

1 Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

God had the Prophets, prophecy the way they did, so as to HIDE the understanding from angles. For had they have understood it, they never would have crucified Jesus. Had they not crucified Jesus, then everyone would still be in bondange to sin, meaning in bondange to THEM.

God bless, that's all I have time for.

Regards,
el Harris

The old testament prophets were given these prophecies that seemed to them, at first to be directed towards "themselves", that is their time period and the Isreal then. But they were in truth, the gospel written in a mystery.

I think we have a long ways to go, to truly understand who the gospel fits into these prophecies. I know that the mystery of godliness is there and also the mystery of iniquity.

I also like that part in the verses above, where it says "which things angels desire to look into. Which I believe means that angels also wanted to understand what was being said, and did not.

It was all revealed to Christ, who then revealed it to his disciples, and is now taught in the gospel.

Thanks for all of your comments. The main thrust of my post was that much of the teaching that goes on today has a focus on earthly Israel. From what I am hearing from all of you, you agree that much modern-day teaching on the OT is quite earth-bound, and misses the main point God is trying to make.

El, I agree with you that the gospel was being preached much earlier than most think. I think man has always had access to the gospel; although it was concealed in earlier days. One example is Jude:

"Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints"

... and another earlier from Genesis 3:21:

"the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

I don't know many of the details of tenets of modern theology, as many of them seem to lead to arguments that don't really accomplish much. I do know the basics, I suppose. I am one of those that believe everyone has always been saved by the blood of Christ, and that His people have always been given His Spirit.

It does not bother me that the first 39 books are called "Old," as Christ does speak of a "new" covenant. I would agree with you el, that most people ditch all the OT books as some Jewish rules. I used to read some of those statements in the NT like Christ saying that Moses wrote of Him, and just think to myself, "someone is missing something, here."

Thanx for everyone's comments.

savannah wrote:
Israel’s regathering spoken by/recorded in the prophets are fulfilled as written by the apostles in the New Testament by Messiah through the gospel.

See Hosea's prophecy Hosea 1:9,10; 2:23; see Romans 9:25,26; 1 Peter 2:9 for it's fulfillment

Again, see Isaiah's prophecy Isaiah 10:20–23 and it's fulfillment in Romans 9:27,28

Who are Jews?

Not ethnic Israel Rom.9:5–6 but the true Israel

See Gal. 6:16,3:26–29 and Romans 2:28–29

One is a Jew by faith not flesh

See Gal. 4:26 and Acts 3:22,23

Compare John 1:11-13 and Luke 21:20–22

RE: THE LAND

SEE Joshua 21:43–45 and 1 Kings 4:24,25

It's fulfillment in Hebrews 11:13–16; 12:22–23

1948 may be of some consequence, but it is not found in the prophets, nor is it the fulfillment of any promise by God.

It's refreshing to see the New Covenant perspective being shared by many on this thread. Very encouraging. The post I’ve quoted above is very insightful, and I fully concur.

I'll add the following.

Under the New Covenant, there is now no difference between Jew and Gentile (that is, if you dare to believe the apostles of the New Covenant, who were themselves Jews after the flesh).

"But now the righteousness of God without (ie, apart from) the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all that believe: for there is [b]no difference[/b], For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God..." (Rom. 3.21-24).

“For there is [b]no difference[/b] between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him” (Rom. 10.12).

"And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; and put [b]no difference[/b] between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith” (Acts 15.9).

“…That the Gentiles should be [b]fellowheirs[/b], and of the [b]same body[/b], and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel…” (Eph. 3.6).

Paul shows clearly that Israel “according to the flesh” was given “the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises” (Rom. 9.4). Then in this passage from Ephesians, he teaches that whatever inheritance and promises and covenants God has promised the Jews, the Gentiles are now also “fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel.” In other words, it is to the Jews first that God has given the promises, but by His mercy and grace in Christ Jesus, He has now opened the door for believing Gentiles to enter in and become partakers of it all.

As a Gentile, I’m very glad for that.

God has for the Gentiles as rich a heritage in Christ as He has for the Jews. But perhaps we need to state that the other way around in this day when so many are trying to teach that God is still holding out an earthly heritage for natural Israel. (You mean, if I as a Gentile am now made a fellowheir, God has for me some little plot of ground for an inheritance over there in Palestine? That's the logical conlusion.)

But no, God has in the church as rich a heritage for the Jews as He has for the Gentiles... far, far more than that natural heritage he held out for them in ancient days. Those who are teaching that God is still holding out to natural Israel that old land over there in the Middle East have failed to see what God accomplished in Christ, creating of both Jew and Gentile “one new man” (Eph. 2.15), and holding out for them both (Jew and Gentile alike) a rich heavenly heritage in Christ Jesus.

The Jews are not second class citizens in the Kingdom of God. To say that God still plans to give them their earthly heritage is really short-changing them.

Even Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob of old had better vision than that. Even they, way back then, “looked for a city that hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God” (Heb. 11.10).

After the writer of Hebrews says this, he goes on to speak of many who “died in faith, not having received the promises” (Heb. 11.13). I don’t know who those all were, but obviously they were Israelites, and I read that they confessed themselves to be “strangers and pilgrims on the earth” (Heb. 11.13). The writer of Hebrews draws the logical conclusion, then, that if they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth they were “seeking a country” (that is, a homeland, a fatherland, a native land where they are no longer strangers and pilgrims).

And he doesn’t leave us in the dark as to what the “land” they were seeking is. “But now they desire a better (country), that is an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He hath prepared for them a city” (Heb. 11.16).

Not that old land over there in Palestine. A BETTER. I want to find myself in agreement with these anointed apostles who wrote-- and we are always very quick to defend this-- the inspired words of our Bible.

May the Lord anoint our eyes with eyesalve these days... to see the beautiful significance of the New Covenant of our Lord Jesus Christ for both Jew and Gentile.

AD

There should be room for everyone (who believes), there.

"For the promise, that he should be heir [b]of the world[/b] was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith" (Rom. 4.13)

...Not just that little corner of the earth now called Palestine, but "the world." Abraham and his seed are heirs "of the world."

...I once saw an old map, an antique map, titled The World. It was very interesting to see that it showed the then-known earth, but also the planets! It included in "the world" both the earth and the heavens!

And actually that word "world" there in Rom. 4.13 is the Greek "kosmos." The promise is to Abraham and his seed that he should be heir the "kosmos." The cosmos.

And who is Abraham's seed?

"Now to Abraham and His seed were the promises made. He saith not, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one: 'And to thy seed,' which is Christ" (Gal. 3.16).

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3.29).

"If ye be Christ's." So that includes both Jew and Gentile believers.

...And this-- the "kosmos"-- is not just physical geography: it's the heritage of God in the Spirit. How little we Christians, as a people, as the true seed of Abraham, have entered into and possessed our heritage!

AD

Israel 'will' be set in their own land at His Return.

What "land" would that be? What do you see Israel's own land to be?

Ezekiel prophesied, "For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land" (Ezek. 36.24).

What land is that?

"I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel" (Ezek. 34.14).

Where are the "high mountains of Israel?" Where is the land of Israel?

In my view this is not a prophesy of that natural earthly land over there in the Middle East.

I'm thinking of Heb. 11.16. "But now they desire [b]a better[/b] country, that is, [b]an heavenly[/b]."

And who is Israel? You quoted Paul in Romans 11.26. "And so all Israel shall be saved..."

But who is "all Israel?"

"For they are not all Israel which are of Israel" (Rom. 9.6).

All Israel now includes both Jews and Gentiles who have been brought into covenant relationship with God through the New Covenant of our Lord Jesus Christ. These are (according to the apostle Paul, at least) "the Israel of God" (Gal. 6.16).

In my understanding, it is a principle of Biblical interpretation to seek to see what's written in "the Old Testament" in the light of the New Testament. This way, as one of the previous posters has said, we discover the "Old Testament" to be filled to overflowing with types and shadows and seeds of New Covenant truth.

...I realize that the above post-- as well as the others earlier-- runs counter to strongly held views that treat much of Scripture concerning Israel from an earthly point of interpretation more or less along the lines of C.I. Scofield's dispensational teaching. I strongly disagree with Scofield, and I hope that people who adhere to his doctrine will keep open hearted before the Lord, and rethink things in the Light of the New Covenant, and reconsider.

...And I do hope that all of our exchanges on this topic will continue to be kept considerate and respectful.

AD

the Scriptures you give of the spiritual do not and never will cancel out those promises in His Word regarding the natural olive tree

You're right, they don't cancel them out. But they do bring them into the light God had in mind when He first set them forth. Their true light, New Covenant light.

He will have direct descendents of Abraham - the "natural" olive tree as His own.

He always has had some of the natural branches as His own, and has some even now. Many-- perhaps most-- of the natural branches were broken off of the olive tree, and the wild branches of the Gentiles were grafted in... but He has always had some of the natural branches in the olive tree. Some day, we are told, there will be a great grafting in again of the natural branches, what Paul calls "their fulness," calling it "life from the dead" (Rom. 11.15). Awesome things are ahead of us.

You mentioned the Millenial reign, saying that after that...

'Then' we will be one tree

I say we are one tree now, believing Jews and believing Gentiles in the one olive tree of Christ.

God never did cast away His people whom He foreknew (Rom. 11.2). The church does not replace Israel. It joins the Gentiles in with the believing Jews, creating in Christ a new Israel, "the Israel of God" (Gal. 6.16).

AD