September 11th

How does that work with always forgive? Or is that different on a national level? Obviously we remember the lives that have been lost, their memories, but often with that comes refreshing the sting of pain that took those precious lives.

Hmm, I don't know what I'm trying to ask really...like does the forgiveness Christ tells us to have for each other also apply to nations? Are we supposed to turn the cheek and those sorts of things, or does standing against evil and for righteousness rule at the larger level?

Laviver said:
How does that work with always forgive? Or is that different on a national level? Obviously we remember the lives that have been lost, their memories, but often with that comes refreshing the sting of pain that took those precious lives.

Forgiveness, I believe, is a very personal matter akin to repentance and salvation itself, as implied in the verses below. It is something we should all do individually.

Mt 6:14-15 [color=CC3300]"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."[/color]

At the corporate level, we should remain true to our calling as servants, instruments, and ambassadors of Christ. We must not lose sight of our goal:

Mt 6:10 [color=CC3300]"...your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."[/color]

The events of 9/11 should be taken to heart for they affect the nations, and therefore our work of Kingdom-building. We should not preempt God's sovereign plan by rushing to "turn the other cheek" which, like forgiveness, is (I believe) to be used in cases of personal affront. We should continue to pray and do God's work as the Holy Spirit leads us.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

Leo wrote:

The events of 9/11 should be taken to heart for they affect the nations, and therefore our work of Kingdom-building. We should not preempt God's sovereign plan by rushing to "turn the other cheek" which, like forgiveness, is (I believe) to be used in cases of personal affront. We should continue to pray and do God's work as the Holy Spirit leads us.

Hi Leo,

So how would you explain these scriptures?

Matthew 5:43-44
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

So who do we obey, Jesus or man?

lee

Dear Lee,

So who do we obey, Jesus or man?

Let me quote what I said earlier to clarify.

Forgiveness, I believe, is a very personal matter akin to repentance and salvation itself, as implied in the verses below. [b]It is something we should all do individually[/b].

I cannot forgive a sin if it was not committed against me. For example (this is purely fictional), if KrispKrittr slaps you around and then beats you up because of a doctrinal argument you had with him, I cannot come to him and say "I forgive you for beating up Lee." It is a matter between the two of you, and, as the aggrieved party, it is yours to forgive and to turn the other cheek, not mine.

With personal forgiveness, it becomes possible to follow Jesus' instructions to respond with love to our enemies. Sincere prayer for the Spirit's leading will never lead us away from scripture.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

I think another reminder would be to listen to Carter conlons message he delivered the sunday after the towers fell, i heard a brother say, an american brother, many want to remember what happened, and it is good, but most live their lifes just as they did on 10/11.... they have not let this change their lifes, i would say it is important to remember, if by remembering it changes our lifes and our values from eartly to heavenly. Those who lost a loved one on that day, their lifes will never be the same, so we should all change and not be the same, brother conlon touches on what effects this should have on our lifes in his sermon.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord:

There are many reasons to remember what took place on Sept. 11, 2001 and to remember that there are still some strange and unanswered questions as to the official whitehouse account of that spectacular event still eched in our minds. But a far greater reality to keep in mind when we speak of this nation is found in Psalms 9:17, "The wicked shall be turned into Hell and all nations that forget God."
This nation as a whole is doomed. Unfortunately America will not escape final condemnation. While we may sympathize with those who lost loved ones on that day and lift up our hearts in prayer for them; still we must warn these same people and all others of a far more terrifying destruction to come and that from the hand of God. We must declare, "Flee from the wrath to come." No one person, or nation is "safe and secure" until they are made right with God. If we never experience another "terrorist attack" such as the one that happened on Sept. 11th or worst, we as a nation are still in danger of the wrath of God. Remember, the sun rises and falls on every great empire, or "super-power." We are in the hands of God and those same hands that exalted this nation will cast it into Hell. Therefore, we must cry out to the masses, "escape for your lives"; unless we repent, we will all likewise perish. The end of all things is near. We must seek the salvation of the individuals, not corporate nations. The Bible make it all clear that in these last of the last days, the condition of the world will only get worse and worse. Many shall be deceived by many, and we are currently in the midst of the greatest falling away, or apostasy in all of Church history. In the light of these terrible times, we should remind ourselves of what the holy apostle said:

[u][i][b][size=medium][color=CC0000][font=Georgia]"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless."[/font][/color][/size][/b][/i][/u] II Peter 3:12-14.

Well that is something which is unforgettably, although there are many years now for this incident but to me I am still at that moment, it is really hard to remember that horrible day.

____________________________
Think different; Think credit cards

How does that work with always forgive? Or is that different on a national level? Obviously we remember the lives that have been lost, their memories, but often with that comes refreshing the sting of pain that took those precious lives. Hmm, I don't know what I'm trying to ask really...like does the forgiveness Christ tells us to have for each other also apply to nations? Are we supposed to turn the cheek and those sorts of things, or does standing against evil and for righteousness rule at the larger level?

Act 15:37-41
(37) And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.
(38) But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.
(39) And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;
(40) And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.
(41) And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

I am certain that Paul the apostle forgave John Mark for his offense against him, but he still did not trust him to accompany him again in ministry. In this context he forgave, but he did not forget. I do not hold bitterness in my heart toward those who perpetrated this great act of evil against my nation and in that respect against me as an American. I do not hold bitterness in my heart toward those who are my enemies. I do, however, recognize them as enemies who I should not trust and who I have to guard against. On the national level, that means that we may have to be proactive militarily about protecting ourselves from that enemy. At the same time, I want desperately for them to come out of darkness and receive Christ just as I have because I love my enemies. I should pray for them who persecute me and despitefully use me out of the love that Christ has shed abroad in my heart.

Notice that it seems I am blending what happens on a national level with what happens on a personal level because I think the basic principles are the same. We recently had a formerly convicted rapist repeat his crime in a vicious way in our area. If the first victim were my wife, I would have to forgive the person and release any bitterness or resentment I held toward him. I would pray for his salvation, but I would also need to be proactive in pressing charges through the legal system to see that he was not able to perpetrate the same act again against others. If he repented, was born again, and came to Christ, I might also seek to try to help the man become established in Christ and grown in him.

Well, there are my thoughts on the matter. I don't see any inconsistency in it.

I too think Paul forgave JohnMark as scripture alludes with Paul including him in the greeting party in the letter to the Colossians and requesting his presence in 2 Tim. 4:11 at the end of his life. I think this came only after the forgiveness which took many years. Once he foragve him, he fellowshipped with him again. Which is my issue with the whole thing, until he fogave, he did not forget. Love keeps no record and is essential to forgiveness. For if a memory is kept and a vow (or at the very least reactive behavior to avoid the person in whatever capacity) is made, then I'm not sure if true, biblical forgiveness has transpired. And thus, my initial question.

1 Corinthians 13:5 says literally in the greek that love does not keep an inventory evil. I believe this to be a personal "you did me wrong" list. When I forgive, I release the person from any obligation they owe to me because they have done wrong to me. I no longer hold their wrongs against them. I don't believe this means that I must purge my mind of any memory that they once did me wrong. I don't think Paul forgave after a long struggle. I think he knew better than to try to minister while holding a grudge against anyone.

I'm not sure I am understanding, but it sounds like you are implying that if one remembers a wrong done, then one has not truly forgiven. Since lack of forgiveness on our part shuts the door to forgiveness on God's part, then that implies that my memory of a wrong done to me would mean that I also am not forgiven. Am I understanding your question right??

I guess my point is that it is possible to have released a person from guiltiness and any obligation owed me because of a wrong done, and to truly love them with the selfless agape love of the Father and yet, at the same time not totally blot out from memory what they have done. I also contend that there are times when it is wise to not forget, as in the case of 9-11, and to guard yourself against further harm.

So if person A hurts person B and person B forgives that person, but never trusts that person again has forgiveness occurred?

I'm sorry if my posts seem jumbled. I just thought that if you hold something against someone because of what they have done to you, it's like you haven't fully forgiven them. Perhaps the process has started, but not completed ya know?

Hi Laviver...

Laviver wrote:
So if person A hurts person B and person B forgives that person, but never trusts that person again has forgiveness occurred?

I'm sorry if my posts seem jumbled. I just thought that if you hold something against someone because of what they have done to you, it's like you haven't fully forgiven them. Perhaps the process has started, but not completed ya know?

I used to go to a chicken restaurant where the owner/cook repeatedly overcooked or undercooked my fried chicken. He also had a tendency to over charge my bank cards. While I certainly forgive the guy, my wife and I stopped going to that particular restaurant simply because we no longer trust the way he cooks food.

Another anecdote: Imagine that your daughter has a male friend from school (or Church for that matter) who repeatedly treats her "inappropriately." He might even argue that it is "normal." Now, you might [i]forgive[/i] the guy for doing what he has done (maybe even considering that his behavior is the result of a poor upbringing). However, you probably wouldn't be a very good parent if you allowed your daughter to be around this guy any longer.

I know that these might have little to do with the topic at hand (9/11), but do you see the difference between TRUST and FORGIVENESS? In fact, one might argue that, ultimately, we aren't really supposed to "trust" anyone except for the Lord. I Thessalonians 5:21

:-)

From the Lord's Prayer:

Mt 6:12 [color=CC3300]"Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."[/color]

Forgiving is like stamping a debt "PAID IN FULL". You will no longer seek payment for that debt because your records will show that it has been paid. But that doesn't mean that you now have to feel an obligation to be extra nice to (or to trust) your former debtor because he/she has been forgiven.

Trust is, I believe, a totally different matter altogether. I agree with what twayneb and ccchhhrrriiisss have said.

In the same way I believe that Christ paid for all our sins on the cross. The debt has been paid and is off the books. But that doesn't mean that Christ is now obligated to welcome us into his kingdom because we are "forgiven". Acceptance into God's family is premised on something else ---- faith, not forgiveness.

I think that you can forgive someone genuinely but still not trust them. I have a friend who was abused as a little girl by her older brother. She has forgiven him. She does not spend time with him and I do not think if she ever had children she would leave them in his care, but she prays for him. I agree with what others have said that you can forgive someone and still not trust them.

with care
rdg

So if person A hurts person B and person B forgives that person, but never trusts that person again has forgiveness occurred?

Laviver, what these guys have said is absolutely true. I would say the answer to this question is yes. Trust means that I have experienced your behavior when placed in a situation and have, by means of that experience, confidence that you will continue to behave in the same manner. In other words, I know that you will do A or B and that I can have confidence that you will never do C or D because I have come to know that is how you do things. If I am always forgetting what you have done, I could have nothing on which to base my trust of you. Very different from forgiveness which, as I think Leo said, is like stamping that the debt is paid in full on the invoice and releasing the person from any further obligation to pay.

Remembering what someone has done and being cautious because of it is not the same as holding it against them. Forgiveness is not a process, at least I don't believe so, because until you have completely forgiven, you have not forgiven at all. How can a person halfway forgive someone else. Forgiveness is an act of the will. Often we need God to give us the strength and grace to forgive, but it is still an act of the will toward a person. Trust on the other hand IS a process. If you have failed me in an area in the past, you may have to maintain a pretty good track record of not failing me for a while before I come to the place of being able to have confidence that you will not again fail me in that area.