Will You Kill or Be Killed?

Will You Kill or Be Killed?

Is Christianity really a violent religion? And is Islam really a peaceful religion?

By Dan Wiesner

Within the Muslim foundational religious text, the Qu'ran, and in overall Muslim belief is the idea and claim that the religion of Islam is the final revelation on top of Judaism and Christianity. The foundational text of Christianity is the Bible consisting of two main parts: the Old Testament (OT) and the New Testament (NT). The Old Testament is the "testimony" or record of the events of creation and the worldwide flood and then mostly a historical record of the people commonly known as the Jews (their religion is called Judaism). The NT is the "testimony" or record of the life and words of Jesus Christ and the first Christians. The OT is a revelation of the mind of God to a particular people and nation on earth, called the Jews. The NT is a revelation of God in the person of Jesus Christ to the whole world. These Testaments together make up the voice of God calling the race of humans back to a relationship with Him, having been separated and alienated from Him through our sin. The Qur'an (which came about 600 AD, around 600 years after Christ and the NT) declares itself to be the final revelation of the OT and the NT by the prophet Muhammad to sum up and clarify the two previous revelations.

While there are several problems with this claim of Islam, we intend to present what is ultimately a central belief, commandment, and doctrine of Islam effecting practical life that runs totally contrary to the core of Christianity. Given the times and current events, this point is extremely relevant. Christianity claims in its religious text and tradition, to be the final revelation of the Covenant between God and the Jews. Jesus and His early followers as it is recorded in the NT, revealed the purpose of God in choosing the Jews on the way to revealing Himself to all nations. The New Testament of Jesus Christ is the contract of covenant between God and the Jews and all nations, kindreds, and tribes. The NT declares through prophecy (or knowledge given from God of future events) the end of all things seen and the coming of the eternal kingdom of God (i.e. Heaven). The record plainly leaves no room for another "final" revelation. It is written in the account about the end of all things in the NT (called the book of Revelation), that if anyone adds to or takes away from this book, the plagues that are testified of in the book of Revelation will be added to that person. Do the Qur'an and Islam do this? And if so, how?

The hope of the writer here is to declare the excellency of the New Covenant or Testament of the Gospel of Jesus Christ over the claims of the Qur'an and Islam. The major point to be looked at is the commandments to the believers of the respective religions are to obey in regard to violence, self-defense, executing justice (with physical force), and physical force in general.

From an obvious simple reading of the verses in the Qur'an in their contexts, one can see that Islam is not the inherently peaceful religion that was depicted in the media by its non-terrorist advocates in response to the 9-11 incident. One of the saddest things about the event is that from Islam's foundation, and believed to be God-inspired text, there is justification for such behavior. While some would argue that the Qur'an only gives justification for self-defense or engagement in what has been called "just war," the author will present verses from the Qur'an for the reader to judge for him or her self. Even if we look at the Qur'an as only giving justification for self-defense or just war, we can still show how this contradicts the Gospel of Jesus Christ and bring forth the excellency of Christ's commands and thus how God will judge our soul in the end of all things.

One thing to note is that earlier in the Qur'an or early in Muhammad's revelation of the Qur'an, there are verses stated about tolerance and peacefulness. Muslims have told the author that this is true: Islam stated as non-violent and tolerant, and later it had to respond to its physical attackers, its non-violent subverters, and those who would not submit to its standards and rules. This response is not just opposite to the commanded Christian response, but such a response is motivated by theology and purported revelation of future events totally opposed and contrary to Christianity. This is the great warning and indignation that has been the impetus for the author's writing.

Something initially must be said about the Holy Bible and particularly the New Testament--the record of the words and life and Jesus and the first Christians. This is the record or measure, the blue print of what a Christian is to believe, how to behave, and for what the collective whole of Christianity is to look like. It is an objective measure in that it is unchanged from when it was revealed to men by God and thus committed to writing. (The author would like to provide historical and archaeological supporting evidence for this claim upon request.) As the NT is composed of certain letters and accounts that have been chosen and confirmed by God to be inspired by Him, it is closed to addition and subtraction. Its objective is that one can take this measure and line it up to a church or to someone who professes to believe in Jesus and see if what they are saying and doing coincide or are the same. The importance a Christian should hold in the Bible is paramount in this world of many religions and beliefs, particularly amongst those that call themselves Christians.

Now you may be wondering what is all this about self-defense and war, etc. in Christianity that is so different from Islam. Again, contrary to popular opinion and practice, and based solely on the foundational religious text of Christianity, there is not one single verse that would allow a true Christian to do violence to another person under any circumstance. (The author would greatly desire to show why few that call themselves Christians have obeyed these commands of Jesus in the NT and to also relay information on the righteous few that have obeyed these throughout history. It would be helpful for the reader to know what light TRUE Christianity sheds on the "Crusades" and "Inquisitions.") Again, there are absolutely no verses permitting Christians to harm another (individually or collectively). There are, however, many verses against physically harming another. Moreover, Jesus only permitted only type of self-defense for His followers--to flee, or run away. You may think this is cowardly in the sight of men, but it is righteous, holy, and necessary in the sight of God.

Recently, the author has even heard Muslims saying that Islam and the Qur'an have the same principles of "just war" and self-defense as Christianity. Let us see what the text says.

Time and space would not permit an exhaustive explanation of the difference between the Old and New Covenants that make up the whole Christian Bible. There are differences between the Testaments in what is commanded pertaining to physical force. It should, however, be stated that while there are differences, these Testaments are not contrary to one another, but the first leads into or is fulfilled by the last. All who truly believe in God after what is declared in the New, as will become clear. Within the text of the OT, the coming of the New is proclaimed by the prophets. Jeremiah prophesied that the days would come when God would make a new covenant, not as He made with the fathers of the nation of Israel in the days of old, but the He would give them new hearts, a change in their inward parts. (Please see Jeremiah 31:31-34 in the OT)

Furthermore, many prophecies are written in the OT of how this new covenant would come about. They generally are pictures, images, and descriptions of the herald of the New Covenant. This herald or messenger is known as the "anointed one," or messiah, savior, redeemer, or eternal king. This Messiah is ultimately the embodiment of the New Covenant. Isaiah prophesied in the voice of God, "behold my servant, my elect ... my spirit is upon Him ... I give you for a covenant of the people, a light of the Gentiles..." or non-Jewish people. It says that He would bring the truth to the Jews and non-Jewish peoples. It says, "New things I declare ... to open the eyes of the blind, to bring the prisoners out of prison ... who will give ear to this ... who will hearken and hear for the time to come?" (Please see Isaiah 42:1-9, 23 in the OT)

Isaiah further identifies this herald of the New Covenant, calling Him "the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace," and of Him also, "unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: the government shall be upon His shoulders ... of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon His kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice ... for ever." (Isaiah 9:6-7) (The author would greatly desire to present more OT and NT verses about the deity of the Messiah.)

The New Testament is the record of this "elect" or "Chosen one" having come and descriptions of what His kingdom, government, and covenant is life. Let us consider His kingdom and the law of His kingdom compared to verses of the kingdom declared in the Muslim Qur'an.

In this following core teaching of Jesus the Messiah or Christ, once can see the excellency of the New Covenant compared to the Old, as well as specific commandments for His followers to obey pertaining to killing and retribution of wrong done to oneself:

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment ...
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right check, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coast, let him have thy cloak also. (Matthew 5:21-22, 38-39)

Continued:

I'm 57 yo, and raised in a Pentecostal church most of my life. I have never heard anyone teach the principals that Christ gave us in Matthew 5, 6, and 7.

Thanks for the article and am looking for the second page. Don

Will You Kill or Be Killed?

Is Christianity really a violent religion? And is Islam really a peaceful religion?

By Dan Wiesner

Continued:

Let us now consider some of the teachings of the Qur'an:
2:190 And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits,
2:194 Fighting in the sacred month is for aggression committed in the sacred month, and for all violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with them that fear him.

The previous statement in 2:194 of the Qur'an is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. Jesus said, "It has been said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, BUT I SAY unto you ..." With these previously mentioned verses in mind, the next will further show how Christ commanded His disciples to respond to enemies, persecutors (physical or otherwise).

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, but hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you love your enemies, bless them that curse you, pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven, for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth his rain upon the just and the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans (sinners) do the same? 48 Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:43-48)

Consider here as well the only means by which Christ permitted His followers to defend themselves:
22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. (Matthew 10:22-23)

What does the Qur'an say about persecution and whether it permits its followers to kill?
2:191 And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
2:193 Fight them until there is no more persecution, and until religion (worship) is acknowledged to be for Allah. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression (assault) except against the oppressors.
9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and his messenger have made unlawful and who don't adopt the religion of truth (i.e., Islam) from those who were given the scripture, fight until they give tax, willingly while they are humbled.

If it is not apparent by now that Islam puts forth a doctrine contrary to Christianity, the author will quote more of what the NT says. In the following verses, Christ reveals a completely different God and a completely different future and kingdom than what the preceding Qur'anic verses presented. Jesus said:
9Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. 10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (Matthew 5:9-12)

And not just Jesus, but the Apostle Paul said, 14Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not... 17Recompense to no man evil for evil... 18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 12:14,17,18-21)

And also the Apostle Peter: 12Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 14If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 15But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. 16Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. (1 Peter 4:12-16)

So we can see that Christ and the Apostles Peter and Paul definitely didn't say that killing is better than persecution, but on the contrary, the followers of Jesus are explicitly forewarned and encouraged to joyfully accept the lot of suffering persecution for Christ's sake since it shall yield a blessing! They said not to do evil or violence to any man, even if he's done evil to you first!

Islam and Christianity do have in common the intent (or commandment) to propagate. And with the intent to propagate would come the need to defend against the resistance to propagation. Paul spoke wisely by God's Spirit to comfort the early Christians, "you can do nothing against the truth." (1 Corinthians 13:8) It is manifest that Christ and His ways are the truth, in that only God can increase a group of people that are continually being killed. The human mind does not comprehend nor desire this. Surely the early Christians walked in obedience to these commands through much of their own bloodshed. An early Christian writer from the late 100s (who also believed that Christians were to abstain from violence and military service) said, and thus summarized the first two and half centuries of Christianity, "the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church."

Jesus Christ told the truth about this life and things to come, and what is required of man to stand aright with and be reconciled to God. Things that run contrary to this or take away from it are lies. The author has found a great wisdom in God to send such a one as His Son, with meekness, gentleness, and love to bright the truth -- the truth that can set a person free from sin and death or if one rejects it, condemns him or her to a most fearful reality. Christ's truth is proclaimed by His followers without compromise, with utter boldness, yet in the meekness and love and gentleness with which He walked. Persuasion by violence of force has no place in Christ's commands to spread His covenant nor would that type of persuasion be coherent with God's desire in the Gospel message. "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17) If a man is forced to partake, his heart, will, and all is not in the partaking. His heart remains unchanged.

Man will have to use violence to promote man's plan. In this sin-corrupted world, God could use, has used, and does use (but never by the hands of Christians) war and violence to bring forth His will and plan of reconciliation, just as God uses all events and decisions in time and history to fulfill His plan while allowing for free will. He used war with the Jews in the Old Testament times, but God's fullest intent was, in His timing, to make manifest the most excellent way. With the coming of God's only begotten Son came a new and greater understanding and responsibility for those who will truly follow God. Indeed, "it has been said of old," God once gave the blueprint for an earthly, temporal kingdom (as a shadow or foreshadowing of the heavenly, eternal kingdom to come), then gave Christ as the king of the eternal kingdom, with its order and statutes. For Muhammad to come 600 years later after Christ and put forth a sort of Old Testament place using the typical human means of strength, wisdom, and might is moving backwards. It is reported that the Qur'an and the doctrine of Islam, which was to be the culminating revelation on top of Judaism and Christianity, was given to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel. Paul aptly warned us 600 years prior, "if we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:9) Again, it was also prophesied by the LORD ahead of time in the OT by the prophet Zechariah, "Not by might (or force), nor by power, but by my Spirit." (Zechariah 4:6) One can see that in the most excellent way, God proclaims His truth on earth, not by those who kill, but rather by those who are killed, who do not resist evil but are like sheep led to the slaughter, as the Savior, Jesus Christ was.

Final note: some may say the verses quoted from the Qur'an here only justify reactive or self-defense type violence or war. While we have seen that Christ and the apostles did not permit even that, let us consider a few more verses from the Qur'an that appear to be proactive, or command violence in the absence of any previous attack, or command violent reaction to non-violent propagation of Christianity or non-Muslim beliefs:

5:33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
5:36 Surely those who disbelieve, even if they had what is in the earth, all of it, and the like of it with it, that they might ransom themselves with it from the punishment of the day of resurrection, it shall not be accepted from them, and they shall have a painful punishment.
2:244 ... fight in the cause of Allah
47:4 ...when you meet the unbelievers smite at their necks...
9:5 So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,
9:12 And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist.
9:14 Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.
4:34 ...and those [women] on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them;

May one be so encouraged by your God-given ability to reason and by the provocation of your own conscience to consider these things from an honest heart. The author encourages all to look at the context of verses from the Qur'an and Bible.

Bible quotes are taken from the King James Version. Qur'an quotes from Holy Qur'an, translated by M.H. Shakir and published by Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an, Inc., 1983.
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Marching to Zion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei_Hu1hcsa4

Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlBA2zp992c

To all saints,

My emphasis above is 'to all saints', yet my appeal is to those who'd consider themselves to be of the "reformed faith" as part of what follows is from a "reformed" document.

I'd also appeal to any who may be of a zionistic (Zionism) mindset, which would include many who hold to Dispensationalism. They may go under many names but some which come to mind are those of the "moral majority" or who fight under the banner of "God and Country". These often believe in a "Christian America".

The sixth commandment

EXOD. 20:13 Thou shalt not kill
DEUT. 5:17 Thou shalt not kill

From the "Heidelberg Catechsim "
Approved January 1563

Question 105

What does God require in the sixth commandment?

Answer 105

That neither in thoughts, nor words, nor gestures, much less in deeds, I dishonour, hate, wound, or kill my neighbour, by myself or by another: (Matt.5:21,22; Matt.26:52; Gen.9:6) but that I lay aside all desire of revenge: (Eph.4:26; Rom.12:19; Matt.5:25; Matt.18:35) also, that I hurt not myself, nor wilfully expose myself to any danger. (Rom.13:14; Col.2:23; Matt.4:7) Wherefore also the magistrate is armed with the sword, to prevent murder. (Gen.9:6; Exod.21:14; Matt.26:52; Rom.13:4)

Question 106

But this commandment seems only to speak of murder?

Answer 106

In forbidding murder, God teaches us, that he abhors the causes thereof, such as envy, (Prov.14:30; Rom.1:29) hatred, (1 John 2:9,11) anger, (James 1:20; Gal.5:19,21) and desire of revenge; and that he accounts all these as murder. (1 John 3:15)

Question 107

But is it enough that we do not kill any man in the manner mentioned above?

Answer 107

No: for when God forbids envy, hatred, and anger, he commands us to love our neighbour as ourselves; (Matt.7:12; Matt.22:39; Rom.12:10) to show patience, peace, meekness, mercy, and all kindness, towards him, (Eph.4:2; Gal.6:1,2; Matt.5:5,7,9; Rom.12:18; Luke 6:36; 1 Pet.3:8; Col.3:12; Rom.12:10,15) and prevent his hurt as much as in us lies; (Exod.23:5) and that we do good, even to our enemies. (Matt.5:44,45; Rom.12:20,21)

Question 101

May we then swear religiously by the name of God?

Answer 101

Yes: either when the magistrates demand it of the subjects; or when necessity requires us thereby to confirm a fidelity and truth to the glory of God, and the safety of our neighbour: for such an oath is founded on God's word, (Deut.6:13; Deut.10:20; Isa.48:1; Heb.6:16) and therefore was justly used by the saints, both in the Old and New Testament. (Gen.21:24; Gen.31:53,54; Jos.9:15,19; 1 Sam.24:22; 2 Sam.3:35; 1 Kin.1:28-30; Rom.1:9; 2 Cor.1:23)

To question and answer #101 I'd add the following:

DD FORM 4/1 and 4/2 are authentic government documents which all are required to swear to and sign when contracting with any branch of the military for the U.S Government. These forms may be found online in their entirety if anyone is interested.

All enlistees before their acceptance into the U.S. military(any branch) are required to make/take an oath of allegiance to the state and its officers with their signature upon said document.

Here are some of the exact words which are written in said document, I quote:

"FOR ALL ENLISTEES OR REENLISTEES: Many laws,
regulations, and military customs will govern my
conduct and require me to do things a civilian does not have to do. The following statements are not promises or guarantees of any kind. They explain some of the present laws affecting the Armed Forces which I cannot change but which Congress can change at any time.

My enlistment is more than an employment
agreement. As a member of the Armed Forces of the
United States, I will be:

Required to obey all lawful orders and perform all
assigned duties...Required upon order to serve in combat or other hazardous situations.

Laws and regulataions that govern military personnel may change without notice to me. Such changes may affect my status, pay, allowances,benefits, and responsibilities as a member of the Armed Forces REGARDLESS of the provisions of this enlistment/reenlistment document.In the event of war, my enlistment in the Armed Forces continues until six (6) months after the war ends,unless my enlistment is ended sooner by the President of the United States.

I, (NAME) , do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of
Military Justice.
So help me God.

I CERTIFY THAT I HAVE CAREFULLY READ THIS DOCUMENT.ANY QUESTIONS I HAD WERE EXPLAINED TO MY SATISFACTION.

SIGNATURE OF ENLISTEE/REENLISTEE
DATE SIGNED

ENLISTMENT/REENLISTMENT OFFICER CERTIFICATION

The above oath was administered, subscribed, and
duly sworn to (or affirmed) before me this date."

The truth is that the christian is not as those who cried,"We have no King but Caesar",who had Christ the King crucified. Rather,the christian has no King but Jesus. Consider just these few of the many words in Scripture which address this vital issue of swearing and oath-taking:

Leviticus 19:12: "And you shall not swear by My name falsely, neither shall you profane the name of your God: I am the Lord."

Matthew 5:33-37:
Again you have heard that it was said to those of old,"You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord." But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem,for it is the city of the great King. Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair
white or black. But let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No," "No." For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

James 5:12: "But above all, my brethren, do not swear,either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath.But let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No," "No," lest you fall into judgment."

Ecclesiastes 5:2 "Do not be rash with your mouth, and let not your heart utter anything hastily before God.For God is in heaven, and you on earth; therefore let your words be few."

Matt. 12:36 "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

The above ought to be enough to at the least cause one to re-think what the will of God is regarding U.S. military service.

Please meditate upon both the questions and the answers which are given with Scripture references.

Above all hear [heed/obey] God in His Word.

NOTE: I myself do not hold to Anabaptist,Mennonite,Amish or the like,in regard to their doctrine of 'Non-Resistance'.

If memory serves me, I believe God set the ruling body's in place to keep order.
Like law inforcement and the like, and God used these forces to bring judgment on people that needs to be judged. He did this multiple times in the old testament, and mentioned in the new.
If your neighbor is getting murdered, would we not run over and save them, even if it meant to kill if that is what it took to save them.
Would we not run to save Israel if she were attacked by hateful, evil, people?
If our Government is taken over by Satan himself, then it would be a judgment of God on us.
And if were martyred for our faith then were martyred for our faith, we don't kill then to save our own skin, because were being judged or tested for a greater testimony for God.
I believe God uses military to judge rogue nations who need to repent and convert or just show them who he is.
Almost never in scripture, but in some very few cases God did the judgment with his own hand without mans help.
But almost always God used military's to judge nations.
If christians did nothing during WWII, I think we would be considered in the eyes of God worse than the worse reprobate who watched his neighbor die and pull down the shades of the window so that we couldnt see what was happening and turn up the t.v. so we couldnt hear them screaming.

Dear Brothers in Christ,

This is such a hard topic. I've read the thread many times, and I've prayed for the Spirit to enlighten me on this, for I know deep in my heart that, although I would not desire to kill anyone at all, there could be situations where I would do it.

I appreciate very much all the posts on Christ's admonition not to kill, but to run away as a defense to evil, and I will try my best to do exactly this when possible.

My guiding verse for situations where one might have to kill or be killed is this:

Ro 13:9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Possible scenarios:

a) If an evil person attacks me physically, I will try my best to subdue him. However, I would rather embrace death myself rather than kill him. I would rejoice that my salvation is secure, and since my attacker might not be saved yet, I would embrace death myself.

b) If an evil person attacks a fellow Christian in front of me, I would try my best to defend him/her without killing the attacker. If it then comes to a life-or-death choice, I would die rather than kill for the reason cited in a)

c) Given the same situation as b), but it becomes a life-or-death choice for my brother/sister and not for me, I still would not kill the attacker for the reason that my brother/sister would go to God, while the attacker still needs salvation.

d) However, if an evil attacker attacks an innocent person in front of me and, as far as I know, neither of them is saved; and it is not possible to subdue the attacker without killing him, I probably would defend the innocent victim by killing the attacker.

My comfort in the above action is God's command to love my neighbor as myself. For if I allowed the evil attacker to kill the innocent victim, I would have violated that same command of God. If one would argue that I did not treat the evil attacker as myself, my only response would be: choosing between an innocent person and an evil one, I would defend the innocent. I believe that is what God would want me to do.

Thingsabove,

I will ask a couple of favors from you before I say anything further. Please do not demand anything from me and do not expect a speedy answer to any question you may ask in our discussions.
Though I’m retired from regular employment it does not apply to the Lord’s service, so I do not spend much time on this forum. I volunteer at our local mission, at the veteran’s hospital and have many other responsibilities in service to our Lord, thus my time here is limited and your questions, though important, are not my top priority.

Please do not think in your haste there is some speedy solution from man to the questions you pose, for much greater minds than ours have struggled with them for centuries. Maybe the solution simply comes from obeying the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ with no what if’s allowed.

Ok, to start with if you were not happy with the answers you received from hmmhmm and appolus then I’m sure you will not be happy with mine.

I believe it is the words and life example of Jesus Christ that we are called to obey and follow. Jesus makes it very clear that all will be judged by his word.

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

John 14:24
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

We find it very clear in 1 Peter 2:18-23 that we are to follow his example.

“Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. [19] For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. [20] For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. [21] For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: [23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:”

In light of these I can only tell you what I believe the Lord has given me to follow.

We are told in 1 Cor. 11:31
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

What do we use as a standard to judge ourselves by? I believe it is his word and his example. He sets the standard we are to live by and judge ourselves by.
He did not say I should judge you or someone else and I should not be judged, he said we are to judge ourselves.

Thus I cannot answer your questions because you are asking me to judge you and others.

If you after prayerfully studying the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ are led to put yourself in the position to take the life of others for what ever reasons, you will be judged by his word, as will we all.

Thank you for your patience.
lee

Someone has asked,

"...how does your statement "I myself do not hold to Anabaptist,Mennonite,Amish or the like,in regard to their doctrine of 'Non-Resistance'" differ from the one held by these groups?"

I reply to all,

These groups mentioned hold to the "doctrine of non-resistance" also known as the "doctrine of non-retaliation". These doctrines in their purest form are rightly defined by the term pacifism. Therefore such adherents of said doctrines may justly be called pacifists.

Christians are not pacifists nor followers of doctrines of men,whether said doctrine be pacifism,humanism,or or any of the many other 'isms'. Although all doctrines of men are equally doctrines of men not all are equal in import,detriment,delusion or destructiveness to soul or body.

In my post(militarism and the christian) I attempted to address that very subject in brevity, 'militarism and the christian'. I purposely avoided the argument (non-violence) which is most commonly used although I agree that such argument has its strengths. I attempted to show that the military for a christian is not an option for said reason, and could not be categorized legitimately under Romans 13.Whereas there may be positions that are optional for the christian elsewhere in that sphere addressed in Romans 13.

In Romans 13 and other places is proof of civil government and the powers that be, that they are of God. We'd all desire God-fearing men to be in positions of authority to govern righteously according to the will of God as stated in Romans 13. Therefore I attempted to show that military service for the christian is categorically disloyalty to Christ Jesus our LORD and King. The argument I gave ought to be the primary one as Christ Jesus alone is our King. Whose banner alone we fight under. Not a physical warfare but a spiritual one.

To comment briefly on the 'Non-Resistance Doctrine' of said groups who wrest the Scriptures here on this as well as on many others:

Non-Resistance doctrine ignores,refuses,and denies the possibility of overcoming evil with good in many a case. They appeal to and enjoin on their followers, in the name of God, never to resist injury to self or others. They make the word resist synonomous with evil as well as the word force to be equated with violence.

There are cases in which it would not only be allowable, but in the highest degree commendable, to restrain human beings by force.The common meaning of the term force is "strength, victor, might," whether physical or moral.

As moral force may be either good or evil, according to its kind, its object, its spirit, or its manner of application, so may physical force be good or evil, according to the same considerations. For this the 'Non-Resistance Doctrine' does not allow.

When an immoral person corrupts the mind of an innocent youth by bad examples, bad counsel,and other evil influences, in which there is no physical force, he exerts a moral force. When one influences another from the error of his ways, by good examples, counsels,and other purifying influences, he exerts a moral force.So when a man by physical force destroys or does harm to the life of another he exerts physical force. But in restraining a mentally deranged person from harming another,or exerting physical force to prevent a rapist or a murderer , or any similar act, is to use a gospelly lawful physical force.

Passivity in such cases and numerous others would be most evil in the sight of both God and man. We are commanded to love our neighbor as ourselves. The command to resist not an evil person does not cancel out the command to love our neighbor. Passivity in such and many other cases would be disobedience to the command of God.

Without a qualification of the words resist not an evil person, and not taken in its context many have concluded what was never intended. Therefore under the guise of christian doctrine harm is done to others while many passively look on calling it a christian virtue as they follow this false doctrine of men. Consequently God is disobeyed by not loving our neighbor.

It is personal revenge which is at the heart of this Gospel truth which our LORD forbids.

Matt 5:39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Rom 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.

1 Thess 5:15 See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone.

savannah, none of those groups are pacifists, they fight, just not with a sword against men, flesh and blood, they fight on their knees against the real enemy, that is the doctrine of non resistance.

another thing, when Paul speaks about government he is not speaking of a democratic people elected government, most likely he is speaking of the murderer and madman Nero who murdered thousands of christians, so when we say for example things about our government and military, that we can serve there, we need to recognize even serving saddam husseins government or stalins or hitlers can be used of Pauls words in romans 13. Not just ours.

I think many forget who and what kind of government Paul was speaking of, he was speaking of a christ persecuting hating antichrist government that God uses for his purposes and he controls. And he still does. No christian joined neros army, and no christian should join our military either. Enlist in Gods army! that is the call we should cry out.