Question

I have a question.

Earlier this evening I listened to a sermon at a church. After the service I talked with the preacher but it was as if he could not hear me. While I was talking he just stared at me and smiled without any change of expression. When he replied it didn't have anything to do with what I had just said. It was all very surreal - as if I was not really there - or maybe it was that he was not really there. While he preached it was almost as if he was a robot. He knew all the verses and had the right inflictions in his voice, but something was missing, and it was something more than the Holy Spirit.

This has happened before when I talked with a different preacher.

Has anyone else ever experienced this or know that of which I am speaking?

Maybe he was on some kind of medication . . .

This world is like a huge minefield. Without the Lord guiding our every step, there is no way of making it through.

Im guilty of that, someone talks to me and im smiling but my mind is elsewhere, due to stress or something heavy on my mind, our minds can only absorb so much, and he was trying to be nice and look attentive yet his mind was probably elsewhere, next time you can ask him questions and engage him in ways that require responses and offer to pray for him, saying you look distracted is everything ok? can I pray for you?
These kinds of questions make the person take his thoughts off that trance state when they are heavy in thought.
One time I was mulling over what I had just said, thinking did I say that right? or man did I just say that?
Some ideas anyway,
If he was looking down at his watch, or over your shoulder he had things he wanted to do or someone who he wanted to talk to, if he turned his body sideways to you or angled he may of wanted to leave to do something, trying to give some signals, like inching towards a door, other things to ponder. The person has many suttle body language signals that they give, knowingly or unknowingly.
But just staring trancelike could indicate tiredness, but there are other suttle body language indicators,
Good luck and God bless.

Another question.

Does it matter who a person is baptized by? If the person doing the baptizing is not of the Lord . . .

While he preached it was almost as if he was a robot. He knew all the verses and had the right inflictions in his voice, but something was missing, and it was something more than the Holy Spirit.

It is sad to see such things happen, but as Greg said:

the devil has many a men in the pulpit with professional pulpitering skills but nothing of the Spirit of God.

Oh that God might purify His Church again from all that defiles in a mighty revival from above.

Does it matter who a person is baptized by? If the person doing the baptizing is not of the Lord . .

It would be very interesting to know what prompted [i]this[/i] question.

I know of a group of Christians who are into apostolic succession. They believe your church must be able to trace its organizational lineage back to the apostles. Only by doing so will your baptism be valid!! This issue provides 1 Timothy 1:4 with a lot of sense.

I do not find any scripture to support this concept. What scripture do these folks use to support their position? and what is their theory behind such a position?

ginnyrose

Another question.

Does it matter who a person is baptized by? If the person doing the baptizing is not of the Lord . . .

I'm not sure if the Bible specifically deals with such an issue. Historically, the majority view of the (Protestant - I'm not sure about Roman) church has been that the efficacy of the baptism is not tied to the virtue or worth of the administrator.

It seems that such a view would create serious practical problems. I can't be 100% sure if the person who baptizing me is a sincere believer. If I can't be sure of that, and the validity of my baptism depends on it, I could never be sure about the validity of my baptism. Such a view would seem pretty absurd, in my opinion.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Oh that God might purify His Church again from all that defiles in a mighty revival from above.

This afternoon as I was reading in John, I noticed this:

John 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

I am taking this to mean that Jesus, and Jesus alone, baptized his disciples - and they were the only ones He baptized.

ginnyrose wrote:
I do not find any scripture to support this concept. What scripture do these folks use to support their position? and what is their theory behind such a position?

Thank you all for your answers. I am not totally clear on the matter but will trust that the Lord will eventually bring it to light.

HeartSong,

I think John 4:2 is saying the disciples did the baptizing of the people who came to them, not Jesus. I don't think it is talking about who baptized the disciples.

[i]"although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were"[/i] (NASB)

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Thank you for pointing this out Taylor. I will have to check further into whether or not Jesus baptized anyone - and who, if anyone, baptized His disciples.

No problem! Let us know what you find.

This is a question that arose in my mind as things did not quite feel right as someone I know was being baptized by the aforementioned preacher.

HeartSong, this issue of baptism can get very controversial, so bad some folks will get all bent out of shape over it. And will say or imply "you are wrong" if you venture to disagree.

Some folks may get baptized and as they grow in their walk with the LORD will ask to be rebaptized because they may think they did not appreciate the previous one for whatever reason. Some will go ahead and rebaptize and others will look at you cross-eyed and know now for certain that you have indeed gone off the deep end.

Then you have folks who get baptized by preachers whom they later discover where hypocrites and they question their baptism or its validity. When this happens it seems to me they are assuming that the ritual imparts some redemptive powers, imparted to them by the baptizer.

But what does the scripture say about baptism? Jesus says one should baptize but gives no details how it is to be done or by whom. As I see it one should enter into it as an act of obedience, method is irrelevant because the scriptures do not detail how it is to be performed.

This is the way I understand the issue and I am certain some will take serious issue with my reply.

I hope this helps.

ginnyrose

In checking into baptism I ran across this:

"Note on Baptism in Ac. Baptism in water (such as John's) is distinguished from baptism with the Holy Spirit (i. 5, etc.). Those who receive the latter, however, may also be baptized in water (cf. xi. 16 with x. 47); and there is one example of people who had previously received John's baptism receiving Christian baptism as a preliminary to receiving the Spirit (xix. 3 ff.). John's was a baptism of repentance (xiii. 24; xix. 4), as was also Christian baptism (ii. 38), but as John's pointed forward to Jesus (xix. 4), it became obsolete when He came. Christian baptism followed faith in the Lord Jesus (xvi. 31 ff.); it was associated with His name (ii. 38; viii. 16, etc.), which was invoked by the person baptized (xxii. 16); it signified the remission (ii. 38) or washing away of sins (xxii. 16); sometimes it preceded (ii. 38; viii. 15 ff.; xix. 5), sometimes followed (x. 47 f.) the receiving of the Spirit." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 98, n. 1.)

This word should not be confused with baptô (911). [b]The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (baptô) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizô) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.[/b]

Source

:-)

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 [b]And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.[/b]

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5[b] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.[/b]

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.

All they did was HEAR and BELIEVE on the NAME of the Lord Jesus.

They were baptized in THE NAME. Cleansed by believing in THE NAME. Which includes believing in who he was, the Son of God, and that God raised him from the dead. This is the bare minium someone has to believe to be "baptised" or cleansed by the holy spirit, and then receive the holy spirit into manifestation.

Notice they all spoke in tongues and prophecied.

This was the "NORM" in the first century, now it's the exception.

Luke in writing about this incident explains what John meant when he said:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: [b]he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:[/b]

There are different ways to sterilize and clean things. One is with water, one is with FIRE. To baptize simply means to "cleanse" or "clean" hence to "wash".

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

And again what did that mean?

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5[b] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.[/b]

Perhaps there is more than one baptism. Say like baptism in the "name" of Jesus Christ, which would be simply believing on the "name".

Then baptism in the "holy spirit", which would be manifesting forth the spirit.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 [b]Of the doctrine of baptisms,[/b] and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

To me, this is simply a basic list of the foundational teachings of Jesus Christ. Everything taught would fall under one or more headings here. You know, like you use to do an "outline" in school. To me this is a "key" to being able to fully understand and catalog everything he taught, as under this outline.

So it says "the doctrine of baptisms", and in the word for word Interlinear translation it says:

"of washings of the doctrine".

The word translated "baptisms" is PLURAL, meaning more than one. And it means WASHING.

Washings of the doctrine or "teaching".

To me this next verse is a clue to that.

Heb 10:Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

And then this:

Eph 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 [b]That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,[/b]

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Sanctified and cleansed by the washing of water BY THE WORD, hence by the doctrine, or teachings of Christ.

This of course would then make this statement by Jesus even more clear.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: [b]the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.[/b]

Hence you are cleansed from not believing or from believing wrongly by the words, teachings, sayings and commendments of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus compaired his word to WATER.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I personally believe that it is the Word of God with which we are both cleansed and baptized, on a daily and continual basis.

That this Word of God IS SPIRIT, and is the water of life that you need EVERY SINGLE DAY.

That it has to be PURE WATER, not adulterated and watered down like most gospel preachers do.

And that this word which is spirit has the power to cleanse and change you from the inside out.

This to me is the original baptism, with the holy spirit working with that Word to help us grow up into Christ.

It is no wonder that the devil through men has successfully corrupted the understanding of the scriptures through his false teachers. For without the truth, we cannot ever truly be cleansed.

This understanding kind of gives us a different slant on "immersing" one's self in the Word.

Regards,
El Harris

T

[b]El Harris[/b] - Thank you for what you have written. It was laid out beautifully. I liked the perspective from which you have spoken.

This understanding kind of gives us a different slant on "immersing" one's self in the Word.

[b]Old Joe[/b] - I can see the problem of which you are speaking.

Blessedly, the day after the baptism the Lord brought forth a situation for restitution that the person that was baptized seized upon - which brought me great comfort. The anger problem, as well as impatience seems to have also fallen off the map.

[b]Taylor Otwell[/b] - back to the question of who was doing the bapizing

I think John 4:2 is saying the disciples did the baptizing of the people who came to them, not Jesus. I don't think it is talking about who baptized the disciples.

"although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were" (NASB)

Everything that I checked indicated that indeed it was the disciples doing the baptizing. But then John 3:22 states - "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized." and also John 3:26 "And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him."

Clearly this is saying that Jesus is doing the baptizing, so why would John 4:2 say that it was not Jesus who was baptizing?

In answer to whether or not the disciples were baptized, John 20:20-22 clearly shows them being baptized by Jesus. "And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"

:-)

After further reflection it is interesting to note that in John 3:23 people came to John and were baptized.

"And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized."

But in John 3:26, Jesus baptized and then the people came.

"And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him."

Therefore these two verses must be talking about different kinds of baptism.

First the anger fell away. Then the impatience. And now - unbelievably - the selfishness.

[i][b][u]BLESSED[/u][/b][/i] be the Name of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!