1 Timothy 2:1-4

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Is there any hope for those who rule this world? Paul teaches:"For you see your calling, brethren, that not wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called, but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty, and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presencel.. 1 Corinthians 1:26-29What is Paul teaching here? Is it not that God put down those who glorify the ways of the world? Does not Paul teach that most, according to the flesh, are not called by God? Jesus said, "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet, because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." John 15:18-19Does not Jesus teach that if one is of the world, that person will hate the brethren? Is this not a promise of God? "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed, He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heal." Genesis 3:15Does not Scripture teach that if one disobeys the commands of Christ he is a hater of Christ?With this point made, Paul encourages us in 1 Timothy 1-4 to pray that the brethren may be able to live in peace and quietness, living godly lives. In "1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." Does not Paul point to the only solution for which we must pray? Is it not that the kings be born from above? Can anyone who is of the world please God? What does Scripture say?In ChristJeff

In "1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." Does not Paul point to the only solution for which we must pray? Is it not that the kings be born from above? I would say off hand that the context of why he urges us to pray is so that we can have an environment in which to dwell that is condusive to peaceful living and all men being able to come to the knowledge of the truth.Can anyone who is of the world please God? What does Scripture say?In the context of kings, Cyrus was raised up for the very reason to let the Israelites go and build the temple. It is more that they fulfill his sovereign purpose than actually please him. Gods dealings with the Pharoah of Egypt is another example of him using a king to accomplish what he wills.The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. Proverbs 21:1

Hey Jeff Quote:Can anyone who is of the world please God? What does Scripture say?I believe that there is definitely a clear difference between those who are the elect according to the will and foreknowledge of God. Along those lines are not those who are of the world still in his will anyway? As it is written, when God spoke to Moses (elect according to God’s will):Exodus 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.And when God spoke to Pharaoh (who was “of the world”):Romans 9: 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.So in that context at least, it seems that people can either please God directly or indirectly. No doubt God is grieved by sin but God is also looking at the bigger picture. In other words, the war has already been won on the cross by Jesus Christ, no matter what the outcome of the battles we see everyday is.Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.So with that I would say that it does not matter who is “in power” or not, for even he is serving God’s will, if only indirectly. The exhortation from Paul is to pray FOR them and not against. For all things even them work together for good.James

Brother ZekeO wrote:In the context of kings, Cyrus was raised up for the very reason to let the Israelites go and build the temple. It is more that they fulfill his sovereign purpose than actually please him. Gods dealings with the Pharoah of Egypt is another example of him using a king to accomplish what he wills.And God raised up King Nebuchadnezzar to destroy Israel and many of the surrounding nations. Then God raised up Cyrus to destroy the kingdom of Babylon. What I see in Scripture is that many times God uses the kings as a means of judging the unrigtheousness of a nation. Being used by God to destroy another nation does not make the tool righteous. James 1:20, "For the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God." Even though a nation is allowed to bring about the plan of God it does not equate to that nation being righteous. I am on a rant on this subject because I see many wanting to trust men. They crave to prove that one nation is above all others. They willingly remain blind to the evil around them. The very center of the Bible says this: "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man. It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in princes. Psalm 118:8-9In ChristJeff

Paul characteristically piles words on top of each other, words describing by what manner one ought to pray for rulers. He puts dramatic focus on this task by stating that prayer is first priority, praying for the rulers is absolute priority – 1 Tim 2:1-4.This is a task many of us dare to try to escape because of the innate enmity due to various reasons. Party politics, all kinds of hurts and distrust, various reasons for rebellion to show up and so on. The first thing praying for rulers does is changing the one praying so that he will be able to overcome bitterness and various other forms of enmity so that he or she will become able to love enemies, also political enemies, and to produce priestly prayer along the lines of the praying our high priest always presents.This belongs to the New Testament priestliness which is ready to pray life into every situation where sin is committed – 1 John 5. Prayer is our tool to change the spiritual climate in a society by covering preaching unto conviction and conversion, establishing relations to the rulers and by living as a testimony.Lars W.

Brother Lars wrote:The first thing praying for rulers does is changing the one praying so that he will be able to overcome bitterness and various other forms of enmity so that he or she will become able to love enemies, also political enemies, and to produce priestly prayer along the lines of the praying our high priest always presents.Prayer is the means of removing the products of the flesh from one's soul. Prayer is essential. And I confess that I have not sought diligently to overcome the products of the flesh in terms of praying for the rulers. Thankyou for your exhortation Lars.In ChristJeff

Every blessing as you move on together with us all unto greater maturity.We are all missing the mark as to prayer.Lars

In general response to the comments of God working out His will in believers and nonbelievers, I would like to share this thought. As I have quoted from 1 Corinthians 1:26-29, God deliberately creates situations that cast down the wise, mighty, and noble of this world. Look to the sited story of Moses and Pharaoh. Did not God make foolish the wise, mighty, and noble Pharaoh of Egypt? Why did God do this? Scripture says that so no flesh shall glory in His presences. King Nebuchadnezzar experienced the same treatment did he not? There are many examples given to us in Scripture that outline the foolishness of the kings of this world. We have the books of 1 and 2 Kings to glean from interms of how we as believers are to discern between good and evil. This doctrine of supporting the kings because they are appointed by God has been interpreted wrongly. This doctrine of following men who are of the world will not bring peace and godly living to those who believe. What does Jesus say?In terms of religious leaders:"Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." Matthew 15:7-9"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in." See Matthew 23Do the shepherds of today dare speak out against the Pharisees? How does Jesus view the kings?"...What do you think Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, for their sons or from strangers? Peter said to Him, "From strangers." Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free?" Matthew 17:25-26Don't we see this timeless circumstance in the news this morning? Jesus says: "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Santify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. John 17:14-17"...My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but, now My kingdom is not from here." John 18:36So when does Scripture says that Jesus' servants will fight? Is it now? Has He come with the sound of the trumpet?In ChristJeff

I hope you will forgive the length of this post…but felt led to share some things with youBrother JeffI think I see what you are saying here. I am not quoting this to refer to any particular leader, but just to bring out one point of view:Mathew11:12From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. That is to say that from the time of John the Baptist we have been at war but the bigger picture is one, which you know well brothers and it is almost facetious to quote this:Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.David Ravenhill has a “must hear” sermon on spiritual warfare. He alluded to the fact that we are not fighting some town clerk, mayor, prince, or king, but that the forces of spiritual darkness will exert their influence on all those who are not in the light. On the question of fighting, if we fight against the vessel through which evil flows we are by no means affecting the evil, we must aim our efforts directly at the source, which is spiritual. We have been given authority and power over ALL the works of darkness, but whether we exercise this power entirely in our hands.The works of evil here in the west are usually more subtle, possibly, because if they were more obvious it would awaken the great sleeping giant, the Church. There are literally more Christians in the west then anywhere else in the world. It is my opinion that the strategy is different here than it was back home in Africa, especially around the area where there were few Christians.I have a multitude of stories I could tell you; stories of people being physically brutalized and stoned by unseen forces. People being lifted and thrown across rooms, stories of great spiritual darkness and strongholds, where whole heard of livestock disappear and human beings are lost forever; stories of mountains, which, when you point at them, a great curse falls upon you. The list is almost endless.When I came here when of the things that struck me was how subtle the evil was here, but it is still just as powerful if not more powerful and just as binding. It appeals more to the “free will”. I myself was bound by these powers of wickedness when I fell into the pornography trap. Spiritual evil stirred up the sinful nature, which was in me already. I gradually became desensitized to the light to the point where I could be listening to a sermon and at the same time be deep in pornography….On the surface I was fine, attending church, going to bible studies and prayer meetings, quoting scriptures, posting replies on the forum, listening only to church music; fasting for as much as three days in a row, studying the bible, praying, singing hymns; making plans to go to seminary school. All of it was useless. I was still leaning on my own strength. The outside activities could never change my heart. It did occur to me at some point and I was convicted of my sin by the grace of God. I exchanged some PMs with brother Rahman and they began me on my road to spiritual enlightenment. Moreover, would begin to cry when I was praying and I was compelled to stop because of my guilt. I would feel like crying at almost any church sermon. In addition, I was moved to confess my sins before the church and I broke down and cried. Still I was the same man, being entangled and constantly trapped. I decided to stop the charade, I was not reading my bible anymore nor praying nor singing nor any other thing…I was well aware that I was not filled with the spirit because of the sermons I hear on this site and the testimonies of those who where filled with the spirit…including my mother, who had been praying for me for a long time, and feeling a great force when praying for me. She arrived in America from to visit my sister and me and when she came to my house, her righteousness reflected on my corruption. She prayed for me with great fever, groaning and with tongues and laid hand on me, needles to say…I was still unchanged!It did awaken me to the problem in my life…a distinct lack of God. My frailty was all too clear and my lack of power was never more obvious. When she returned again we had a long spiritual discussion about the state of the church and the like and my desire to go to seminary, when no clear conclusion could be reached we decided to sing some hymns and pray…I began to pray and I felt the Spirit come upon me. I was convicted and broken down to the ground and left shivering. When I got up I felt peace for the first time and I sang out to the Lord Jesus. I was no longer a slave and moreover I started to realize how trapped I truly was, and to feel a real anguish for the church. For now this story must end with an exhortation and a reminder to anyone who can relate, that God is no respecter of persons, if he did it for me, he can do it for you.Yours in ChristJames

Thankyou Brother James for sharing your heart. I thankyou for also pinpointing the source of the evil and where the true battle exists. As I have asked how should we pray, you have identified clearly what we should pray for. "We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one." 1 John 5:19In ChristJeff

Here is an example of a king who leads his nation astray."But King Solomon loved many foreign women, as well as the daughter of Pharaoh; women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians, and Hittites, from the nations of whom the Lord had said to the children of Israel, You shall not intermarry with them, nor they with you. Surely they will turn away your hearts after their gods." Solomon clung to these in love. And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines; and his wives turned away his heart. For it was so, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not loyal to the Lord his God, as was the heart of his father David. For Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord, and did not fully follow the Lord, as did his father David. Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, on the hill that is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the abomination of the people of Ammon. And he did likewise for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods. So the Lord became angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned from the Lord God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods, but he did not keep what the Lord had commanded." 1 Kings 11:1-10The Lord came to him twice and warned him about his unfaithfulness. Solomon rejected God. And thus a nation grew apostate because of the king. Here is the thoughts of King Jeroboam: "If these people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will turn back to their lord, Rehoboam king of Judah, and they will kill me and go back to Rehoboam king of Judah." Therefore the king asked advice, made two calves of gold, and said to the people, "It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, O Israel, which brought you up from the land of Egypt." And he set up one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan. Now this thing became sin, for the people went to worship before the one as far as Dan. He made shrines on the high places, and made priests from every class of people, who were not of the sons of Levi." 1 Kings 12:27-31The examples found in books of Kings and Chronicles are filled with examples of the foolishness of the kings. We hear that this foolishness cause the people to sin as well. If you want to find the works of Satan read through the OT. As brother James pointed out, these are only men, our battle is spiritual. The word of God will teach us to discern between good and evil. But we must cast away the traditions of men. In ChristJeff

But we must cast away the traditions of men. Please excuse my ignorance if indeed it so, but what has this got to do with the whole idea of kingship?

"We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one." 1 John 5:19That raises a a knife edge of application between a mans personally accountability for his actions and being under the sway of the evil one.it is interesting that in Ephesians Paul says this: As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. At that time I would not have even thought that it was because of some spirit working in me that I would be disobedient. I was more like brute beast than anything, following my sinful nature. So as James was saying there is a pressure that is brought to bear upon us that will cause us to move from our position in Christ. The scripture that comes to mind is heb 6:19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. That we are able to stand in that day because we are kept by the power of God.Some thoughts,

Brother ZekeO My point in this thread is to focus on a doctrine that many have followed probably since the days of Calvin. In that we are to obey the authorities over us because they are ordained by God to rule over us. God chooses those who rule over us. Yet does this mean that we as believers are to blindly follow those rulers? Does submitting to authority automatically place a believer in God's will? Is one who submits to the authority ordained by God declared righteous?My argument is that this doctrine is the tradition of men. And one who submits to this doctrine is in danger of being led astray. God clearly chose Solomon to be king over Israel. Yet Solomon led the nation of Israel into sin. Brother James pointed out that the source of this evil is of satan. Man who is not born from above, is subject to the devices of Satan. So when we pray that we might live a peaceful and godly life, we should pray that God remove the influence of Satan on the kings of the world. In ChristJeff

Brother JeffMy friend (Albert) always says to me that this is man’s system. We have really discussed the life out that topic and I hope I am able to convey some of the things we have come to in our mini church (when two or more are gathered in my name). I think that this is relevant when considering what affects our leaders. To set the stage consider the following verses:Genesis11: 1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. The collective will of man was of one accord. Before the fall of man this was desirable as man would be able to work collectively for good, but after the fall their collective will still had power, but this power was being used for evil.The system of man has a definite hierarchy and chain of command and it works in a definite direction. Evil has its influence on this system two fold: first, there is the innate sin, which is man and secondly the kingdom of Satan, which two has a hierarchy, exerts its influence on our system. No doubt, Satan observed that the system of man was powerful and that he could use this power for his own purposes (which are debatable but not relevant at this point). He has over the years, become exceedingly efficient at his deception.The most efficient way to influence a system is to influence the head, which is the person highest in the hierarchy. Kings pass laws and the citizens must conform…with one accord, and if that accord is that of Satan, then he has succeeded in imitating the ideal of the Church of Jesus Christ. On that point, the Church is the only efficient way of countering the works of spiritual darkness. If our efforts and prayers are fragmented then the true power is never realized. All you have to do is to look at the strongholds and how evil is propagated in collectives in gangs, bars etc. whether they know it or not they are subtly being influenced and drawn to work in one accord against all that is pure.One of the defenses we have is to protect our leaders from evil by praying FOR them. Do you believe that the Church can be effective against this, and if so, what can we start doing now.James

My argument is that this doctrine is the tradition of men. And one who submits to this doctrine is in danger of being led astray. I think that it was this doctrine that allowed many German soldiers to do what they did and feel that they were not violating Gods moral law during WW11. I do feel however that for the sake of balance I will put this scripture in : 18Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. 20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 1 Peter 2:18-21So if according to moral choice you say don't agree that killing any person is right and forgo joining the military, you would in all likelyhood be treated harshly. It would be a decision based upon personal conviction. Some things you have a choice in and others are beyond your control. I also think that sometimes God allows authorities to come into power to see what his church will do. An example of this would be the church in China. Would there be such a dynamic blaze for Jesus if they hadn't experienced such persecution. I remember hearing a story about Michael Cassidy going to see PW Botha during the 80's challenging him about the apartheid laws and the PM pulled out the bible and opened it up on Romans 13. So he certainly new where he was coming from. I think it something where the spirit of the individual man needs to be weighed, by man I mean the followers of kings. Certainly the three in Babylon were not in submission to the the king, but before God that had set him apart as Lord. They were submitting their lives to the discretion of their ultimate master, so would Peters admonishment apply? I wouldn't think so because it wasn't disobedience based upon holding onto there own rights. It was disobedince based upon the conviction that obeying would cause be an even greater degree of disobedience. it would be disobedience against the ruler of the universe, not that of a king with a big ego. And that I believe is the line that needs to be drawn in our attitudes to those in authority.An example would be your Presidents support of stem cell research (open to correction). He is leading the nation that way, how do you as an individual disobey that decision? Seems like there is not much you can do except vote for someone else. If the president commanded you to be involved in it, you could disobey based upon truth from the word.Intersting topic ;-)

An example would be your Presidents support of stem cell research (open to correction). He is leading the nation that way, how do you as an individual disobey that decision? Seems like there is not much you can do except vote for someone else. If the president commanded you to be involved in it, you could disobey based upon truth from the word.The walk of faith is not always the most practical one. I think we can learn a lot from Daniel:Daniel6: 5 Then said these men, We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel, except we find it against him concerning the law of his God. 6 Then these presidents and princes assembled together to the king, and said thus unto him, King Darius, live for ever. 7 All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, F48 that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions. 8 Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.9 Wherefore king Darius signed the writing and the decree. 10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.As we know, he suffered persecution for his decision to serve the Lord above all other things but that is to be expected, in fact if you suffer no persecution it is proof that something is wrong with your walk. And also to be noted is that he was not harmed but the Lord protected him. As our Lord said:John16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye SHALL have TRIBULATION: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. James

Brother Zeke quoted:it is interesting that in Ephesians Paul says this: As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Thankyou for this insight Zeke. This thread is not something that I have previously thought out. It grows in focus as we share. According to Paul's teaching here, all men who are not born from above are subject to the ways of this world. And the rulers of the air hold these men in bondage. We know that Scripture warns that in the last days the kings of this earth will be under the power of Satan. We know from Scripture that past kings have been under the power of Satan. This brings to mind another thought from the book of Daniel.Daniel had prayed that God would give him understanding of a vision that he had had. And God did send His angel and this is what he said, "Then he said to me, "Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty one days; and behold Michael , one of the chief princess, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.... And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come." Daniel 10:12-20.So here we see that as Paul has pointed out in the beginning verse of this post that there is a power over the kings of earth, those who are not born from above. We also see a spiritual battle that rages all around us. So thus far I know that I should pray to the kings salvation and also pray against the works of Satan. How esle must we pray?In ChristJeff

So thus far I know that I should pray to the kings salvation and also pray against the works of Satan. How esle must we pray?It is easy to see now how the teaching of territorial spirits and the like gained acceptance in the church. To be aware of what is happening certainly helps us with understanding how things work, but I think the focus of any prayer is the Godhead and not the powers at work in the air. It is the proclamation of the word in prayer that causes our prayers to have power. Judson Cornwalls book ‘Praying the scriptures’ is a good guide as to how we go about praying Gods will.

I think the focus of any prayer is the Godhead and not the powers at work in the airAmen and amen.