Is man subverting or encroaching on the work of the Holy Spirit?

[b]THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GIVEN TO US BY GOD FOR MANY REASONS:[/b]

[b]A. The Spirit teaches us the deep wisdom of God.[/b]
1Co 2:6-10 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, [i]we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began[/i]. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him” — but [i]God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.[/i].

[b]B. The Spirit gives us understanding.[/b]
1Co 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, [i]that we may understand what God has freely given us.[/i]

[b]C. The Spirit gives us the words to speak.[/b]
1Co 2:13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in [i]words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[/i]

[b]D. The Spirit gives us the discernment to judge things.[/b]
1Co 2:14-15 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because [i]they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things[/i], but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment: “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?”

[b]E. The Spirit enables us to minister with different gifts.[/b]
1Co 12:4-11 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. [i]Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[/i] All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

[b]F. The Spirit gives us power to do the work of God.[/b]
Ac 1:8 [i]But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."[/i]

[b]The Spirit grants us attributes of godliness to make us effective ministers.[/b]
Gal 5:22-23 But the [i]fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control[/i]. Against such things there is no law.

[b]G. The Spirit unites us.[/b]
1Co 12:13 For we were all [i]baptized by one Spirit into one body[/i]—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free —and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

[b]H. The Spirit lives in each and everyone of us, working in each of us to do all the above (A to G).[/b]
1Co 3:16 Don’t you know that [i]you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?[/i]

[b]MY QUESTIONS ARE:[/b]

If we, as Christians, believe all the above, as written in God's Word, how is it that:

1. We choose "man-made" pastors, qualified to serve by virtue of their bible school diplomas, certificates of training, portfolio of publications, etc., rather than the basic spirituality spoken of in the bible? ([i]For example, look at the top of the SI forum's main webpage. The ad shows exactly how pastors are made today - by completing a degree[/i]). Is it still possible for a spiritual man to be elected pastor of a Christian church without a bible school degree? Or is it more likely that the bible-school-educated man will always be chosen over a simple spiritual man for a leadership position?

2. Why do we run around seeking to attend this seminar, and that conference, longing to read this book, or to listen to that sermon? Are these human resources superior to the Spirit's work?

Scripture says the Spirit lives and works in each one of us. [b]Is the Spirit's ministry in us insufficient?[/b]

I know that we can be renewed and inspired by fellow believers through their words, their writings, teachings, etc. - that is why we are encouraged by God to have fellowship. But [b]haven't we gone a bit too far, leaning too much on mere men and not enough on the Holy Spirit who dwells in us?[/b]

[b]Please share your thoughts on this.[/b]

MY QUESTIONS ARE: If we, as Christians, believe all the above, as written in God's Word, how is it that: 1. We choose "man-made" pastors, qualified to serve by virtue of their bible school diplomas, certificates of training, portfolio of publications, etc., rather than the basic spirituality spoken of in the bible? (For example, look at the top of the SI forum webpage. The ad shows exactly how pastors are made today - by completing a degree). Is it still possible for a spiritual man to be elected pastor of a Christian church without a bible school degree? Or is it more likely that the bible-school-educated man will always be chosen over a simple spiritual man for a leadership position? 2. Why do we run around seeking to attend this seminar, and that conference, longing to read this book, or to listen to that sermon? Are these human resources superior to the Spirit's work? Scripture says the Spirit lives and works in each one of us. Is the Spirit's ministry in us insufficient? I know that we can be renewed and inspired by fellow believers through their words, their writings, teachings, etc. - that is why we are encouraged by God to have fellowship. But haven't we gone a bit too far, leaning too much on mere men and not enough on the Holy Spirit who dwells in us?

1. I cannot see the model of "hiring a high powered and educated pastor" anywhere in scripture. It is possible, I guess, for a church to thrive spiritually if that pastor is a man of God called to that position, but I don't think this is God's best for His people. I do see over and over again where God placed equipping ministries in the body that act in concert with one another to bring the body into maturity. Ephesians 4. I see where a plurality of eldership was appointed in most local assemblies by these equipping ministries, usually by apostolic leadership. I see where this eldership placed deacons in charge of specific ministries within the body. All worked together in submission to one another for the edification and growth of the body and for the work of the ministry to bring many more into the kingdom of God. I personally think "electing" a pastor or any other leader in a body is not a good way to choose leadership. I know there is the example of casting lots for a replacement for Judas among the original twelve, but this is not the consistent pattern set forth by the apostles after pentecost and during the laying of the foundation of the church. Actually, the term lots could be interpreted as, "they gave forth their portion or opinion", so I am not sure even about that instance. Maybe someone else has studied this in a bit more detail. However, I see the church built on the foundation of the five fold ministry gifts operating in it.

2. I will "run around" to hear some men of God and I will try to read the books of some men of God, but I am very choosy about who and what books. I agree with you. It seems like the church lives in its own little episodes of Christian Idol sometimes. Some of it is hype, some of it is because genuine men of God who are moving in the power of the Holy Spirit draw a crowd. I think the trick is to walk close to God and allow the Holy Spirit to give us discernment. We live out of the power and anointing of the Holy Spirit. We can be edified, taught, etc. by Spirit filled men and women.

We are meant to walk in the Spirit, be led by the Spirit, be filled with the Spirit, and operate in the gifts of the Spirit. It is only through the power of the Holy Spirit that we can be the dead men walking who have given themselves for the cause of Christ. God has also ordained leadership in the body. We need Godly leadership. I guess there is always a danger of man getting in the way of what God wants to do.

Hi Leo.

Well, for starters:

Is it still possible for a spiritual man to be elected pastor of a Christian church

Elected pastors?

Where do you get that from? Right there we have one of the most commonly accepted instances of man usurping the place that is the Holy Spirit's alone.

...But I agree with you: the man who has no Bible school diploma in hand, yet HAS had a spiritual education under the direct tutelage of the Holy Spirit Himself, won't have the qualifications most churches are seeking.

(Whether he would want such a position in the first place--in the established system, I mean-- is another question.)

AD

Edit: Just read the post by Travis, which he posted at the same time as mine, it appears. And I agree. What they did in casting lots in Acts Ch. 1.26 was not the setting of a precedent. Very insightful post.

Elected pastors?

(Whether he would want such a position in the first place--in the established system, I mean-- is another question.)

Jer 31:31-34 [i]“The time is coming,” declares the LORD, “when [u]I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers[/u] when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, ’” declares the LORD.

“[u]This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “[b]I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts.[/b][/u] I will be their God, and they will be my people. [u][b]No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother[/u], saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because [u]they will all know me[/u], from the least of them to the greatest[/b],” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”[/i]

The above passage speaks of our new covenant in Christ, and I have understood the portions in bold to mean that God (through His Spirit) intends to make himself known to each and everyone of us directly, one-on-one, without need for any intermediary.

Of course, there are men in the church who are called to be pastors and teachers, whose Spirit-given ministry is to help others into a deeper understanding of God's Word. However, I believe God intended such ministry as an aid, and not as the primary means of spiritual sustenance. It is God's intention that each believer should learn from Him directly.

However, what I see at my church (and others are probably the same way) is that many Christians are not learning to seek God directly. They depend too much on sermons, bible-reading schedules, "edifying" books and tapes, publications like "The Daily Bread", online videos, conferences, seminars, and many other well-intended "interventions" that substitute for learning directly from God. This is a weakness in the church that I feel needs to be corrected.

That is why I started this thread - to call attention to the need to depend more on the Holy Spirit, and less on mere men.

hi, who in the world is the head of this awful church we criticize so freely? Jesus... o my my... this is the same God who picked gideon while he was hiding in fear to lead his army to battle. He must know something we dont know... looks like its out of hand and we should take over in our infinite wisdom . jimp

However, what I see at my church (and others are probably the same way) is that many Christians are not learning to seek God directly. They depend too much on sermons, bible-reading schedules, "edifying" books and tapes, publications like "The Daily Bread", online videos, conferences, seminars, and many other well-intended "interventions" that substitute for learning directly from God. This is a weakness in the church that I feel needs to be corrected.

Absolutely Leo. Why aren't the men that God has placed in leadership constantly trying to "work themselves out of a job"? Our churches should be places where man and women are taught to rely on the Holy Spirit and brought to a level of maturity spiritually that they can leave to become the ones doing the work of the ministry, not the ones constantly needing to be fed. Is this the general idea you are getting at?

twayneb wrote:

However, what I see at my church (and others are probably the same way) is that many Christians are not learning to seek God directly. They depend too much on sermons, bible-reading schedules, "edifying" books and tapes, publications like "The Daily Bread", online videos, conferences, seminars, and many other well-intended "interventions" that substitute for learning directly from God. This is a weakness in the church that I feel needs to be corrected.

Absolutely Leo. Why aren't the men that God has placed in leadership constantly trying to "work themselves out of a job"? Our churches should be places where man and women are taught to rely on the Holy Spirit and brought to a level of maturity spiritually that they can leave to become the ones doing the work of the ministry, not the ones constantly needing to be fed. Is this the general idea you are getting at?

Yes. Exactly. Thank you, twayneb.

MY QUESTIONS ARE:

If we, as Christians, believe all the above, as written in God's Word, how is it that:

1. We choose "man-made" pastors, qualified to serve by virtue of their bible school diplomas, certificates of training, portfolio of publications, etc., rather than the basic spirituality spoken of in the bible? (For example, look at the top of the SI forum's main webpage. The ad shows exactly how pastors are made today - by completing a degree). Is it still possible for a spiritual man to be elected pastor of a Christian church without a bible school degree? Or is it more likely that the bible-school-educated man will always be chosen over a simple spiritual man for a leadership position?

I'm trying to understand your question. Are you against having Pastors or just asking why do we choose a bible-educated man over a simple spiritual man for a leadership position?

First Pastors are given to us by God. Eph 4:11 says and "some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body may be built up". God gave us Pastors to equip and build up the Flock. If they were not needed why would God gift and call Pastors.

The standard for a Pastor is 1Tim 3 whether he graduates from Seminary or a Bible educated man. THat is the standard but there are many benefits to going to seminary. 2 Tim 2:15 reminds us to correctly divide the Word of Truth, men are specifically trained to do that in seminary. I do believe that Men can educate themselves and be schooled in the presence of GOd and be able to lead. in my church (a small church) there is no requirement for a degree just as long the man meets 1Tim 3 and is doctrinally sound (2Tim 2:15). I do agree with you that a degree doesn't qualify you for leadership but is a means to train and shape your knowledge of scripture and character.

2. Why do we run around seeking to attend this seminar, and that conference, longing to read this book, or to listen to that sermon? Are these human resources superior to the Spirit's work?
You answer your own argument with an obvious answer that nothing is superior to the spirit's work in one's life. No man's work is superior to the innerant Word of God.
Your concern seems to be why do we look outward when we have all that we need ie Holy Spirit and God's word. You are correct that we should seek God first and have regular personal encounters with him but we should not deprive ourselves from Men who have been greatly used by God to stir the flame already within us. I have been greatly encouraged and blessed by additional readings by Godly men but of course not close to anything I've experienced when I have been taught by God directly.

Scripture says the Spirit lives and works in each one of us. Is the Spirit's ministry in us insufficient?

Your question answers itself again. Of course the spirit's work is sufficient however your argument seems to emphasize that the church doesn't need Pastors or Elders to aid in the believers growth (correct me if I'm wrong) we just need the Holy Spirit and God's word. But to your point what if I got saved yesterday how would I understand the basic and deeper things of the Word unless I was taught. Now I do believe that the spirit can teach you things but God used Men in my life to aid my spiritual growth. Does that mean that th spirit is unsufficient?

I know that we can be renewed and inspired by fellow believers through their words, their writings, teachings, etc. - that is why we are encouraged by God to have fellowship. But haven't we gone a bit too far, leaning too much on mere men and not enough on the Holy Spirit who dwells in us?

Please share your thoughts on this.

Finally here is your whole point for your thread. Yes we have gone to far but your arguments seem to emphasize that there is no benefit in Pastors, books, seminars, etc.. You don't address the balance needed.

Dear TruthNLove,

You said:

Finally here is your whole point for your thread. Yes we have gone to far but your arguments seem to emphasize that there is no benefit in Pastors, books, seminars, etc.. You don't address the balance needed.

Please re-read the paragraph that you quoted from my post before you said the above. I said, and you quoted me:

I know that we can be renewed and inspired by fellow believers through their words, their writings, teachings, etc. - that is why we are encouraged by God to have fellowship. But haven't we gone a bit too far, leaning too much on mere men and not enough on the Holy Spirit who dwells in us?

My point is that we rely on other men too much, and not nearly enough on the Holy Spirit whom God assigned to lead us into spiritual maturity. If people would do as God intended and focus on learning from the Holy Spirit, they would not remain "babes in Christ" for too long.

As twayneb summarized my thoughts very nicely in an earlier post:

Why aren't the men that God has placed in leadership constantly trying to "work themselves out of a job"? Our churches should be places where man and women are taught to rely on the Holy Spirit and brought to a level of maturity spiritually that they can leave to become the ones doing the work of the ministry, not the ones constantly needing to be fed.

Thank you.

Hi Leo,

I agree with the main point of your post that we rely on men too much and not nearly enough on the Holy Spirit.
The reality is that we have evolved in to passive / lazy learners content with the crumbs of God's word. It's much easier to use my pc study bible than it is to get my concordance, bible dictionary, cross reference,etc.. This is reflective of today's society and it has impacted our personal pursuit of God. It is very easy for us to sit and listen to be spoon fed rather than diligently seek the scriptures for ourselves.

Now It's obvious and basic to know that spritual maturity happens when we seek the Lord of the Word ourselves, through personal encounters with God. Sermons or books or conferences can and should just be sparks to stimulate these personal encounters.

The reality is that all Christians will not grow into maturity and will always need Pastors and Teachers. I do not necessarily agree that Pastors should "work themselves out of a job" but do believe that they should multiply themselves by training and discipling other believers thus expanding the scope of ministry in building God's kingdom. Furthermore Pastors can be greatly used not necessarily just preaching and teaching but modeling a life of Christ to the Flock (consistantly over the long haul). This is what the Apostle Paul did so effectively which provided encouragement and a example to his sons of Faith. And lastly there are many churches flourishing where Pastors have served for decades. Pastors who have been faithful preaching the Word of God week in and week out, who have multiplied themselves and given ministry away to expand the kingdom of God.

My point was that Churches can flourish and benefit with a Godly Pastor who teaches his flock, protects his flock, guides his flock to personally encounter our God. To your point do all Pastor's do this, maybe not but I don't believe their work is to work themselves out of a job.

Thank you,

hi, i think we all have too much talk and not enough walk on this site... i am part of a church that wins 30 to 60 a week throughout this city with many outreaches. thats how many we baptize... if your blowing and going in many areas of ministry... unwed mothers... poor... druginfested areas...universities etc. you need to train workers in the kingdom ... you need to wipe a thousand tears... you need to instruct those new in Christ.this is what it is all about...are you saved to serve or be served.jimp
we also have started hundreds of churches around the world...one thing we do not have is critics. the closest church to our south location closed the church service to join us in prayer during the illness of the pastors daughter in law. that church has 7 services a weekend. shut up and get busy loving God and His prople He bled and died for.

Dear jimp,

God is more interested in what you harbor in your heart than in all your "good works".

[i]1Co 13:1-7 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.[/i]

That is why we need to heed the voice of the Holy Spirit first and foremost.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

hi, thank you for your word, my brother ... love will have you weep with intercssion over a lost world... love will have you move into action to aid the lost, the dieing, the hopless,the helpless the blind... love will get you involved in what Jesus wants done on the earth.GO and make disciples of Christ. i remember bro len telling me that love is warning you if you had a lion in your back yard so you do not venture outside. griping and crtisism is why the other chosen people never entered into there inheritance... it is the lion in our back yard...with lovejimp