Hey,my theory is simple. look at a time line. (Past)(Present)(Future)so God, seeing time like this, writes something down, and logically, it is then writen before the beggining. it is free will and predestined. 100% of each. same way Jesus is 100% God and Man. :-o simple huh? :-o
Whilst God is soveriegn, and knows the beginning from the end, I do also believe that we fully have the free choice of what we do. It's a hard thing to truly think about, after all, how could we have free choice and God total sovereinity? I don't know. But God has given us choice, that when he judges he may be just in his judgement and we can blame no one but ourselves. As long as my lungs have breath in them our future is up the air. Only when we pass into eternity will our futures be sealed. -JW
Perhaps this really belongs in Lounge/on the lighter side/ but as this thread is already up and running here is a question."Was I predestined to be an Arminian?" ;-) ;-)
At this hour of my understanding, here is my theory of predestination:1. God knows all things2. I do not know all things3. The bible contains all things necessary for life and godlinessRon - only calvanists are predestined ;-) ;-) ;-)
Without a doubt, one cannot seperate predestination from God's eternal point of view of time (viewing and experiencing all moments of time at once). Could God in all His soverignty forced our hand in every instance of our life? Yes. However, just because God can do something is not the same as God doing something. Also, if one presumes God forces our hand in everything, then one cannot dare talk about us having a loving, intimate relationship with God. Since the Scriptures and experience testify to being able to have a loving, intimate relationship with God, we must then conclude that we are not God's puppets. Puppets are incapable of love.
.so God, seeing time like this, writes something down, and logically, it is then writen before the beggining. it is free will and predestined. 100% of each. same way Jesus is 100% God and ManWayne Grudem uses an example kind of like this of "freewill calvinists." He uses the example of an author writing a book. In the book a man murders someone. Now while the author wrote down the story, theoretically, the murderer still chose to do what he did. This theory falls apart though. Though the man did the deed, it was the pen of the author who orchestrated it. If played out to it's logical conclusion, there is no "free choice" here. The question of predestination and freewill is a supreme mystery to me. I don't believe as Grudem believes that God created evil, and even causes men to sin while being blameless and not responsible for man's sin.(a position held to by hyper-calvinists)I think God's soveriegnty lays in His foreknowledge. As in your example of a timeline, God has already seen all of history take place. And this foreknowledge is to me the greatest proof that God has allowed us a limited free choice. While He is not willing that any should perish, He has allowed us to choose this day whom we will serve. In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey
Is this a difficult question, or what?PERHAPS.....God calls me and gives me faith because He knows how I will respond if He does so. I still could not respond or believe unless He chose me, so could not be saved, but He makes His grace available to me as necessary.The Bible is true, and clearly teaches from BOTH angles, so there is a mystery here that embraces both Calvinism and Arminianism. We are talking about the MANIFOLD wisdom of God - it takes the whole body of Christ and MORE (i.e. God Himself!) to know the entirety of His wisdom. He chose in His wisdom to not spell it out for us, so we would be wise not to try to spell it out too much to each other. It is nevertheless a wonderful mystery, which if treated right, can increase our love for and awe of the Creator.
I don't see how VampireBite's theory supported free will at all, or was even in-depth enough to support predestination. I think I overanalyze too much often times though. :-P I beieve strongly in predestination, but with some tweaks. For example, we're chosen by God to go to heaven. I read Ephesians 1 and it couldn't be clearer to me. But we're given choices in other matters...For example (and I know it's trivial, bear with me), I have a turkey sandwich and a ham sandwich sitting before me. God lets me pick my lunch, but He already knew what I was going to choose.If we have free will in receiving Christ, then it implies risk-taking on God's behalf. The risk is in that He lays everything out before us, and we either choose Him or don't. Where there's risk, there's chance, and where there's chance, there's uncertainty. Does God have uncertainty? By no means; to say so would be to say He's not omniscient, and we KNOW He is.So long story short, I think we have limited free will in some aspects (we choose to disobey Him at times, but He already knew we were going to), but in the matter of who'll be next to me in Heaven...God chose them before time began.
Ephesians 1, being interpreted in the light of the all scripture, I don't believe is speeking of specific individuals. Instead, Paul is glorying in the fact that God has chosen a people from the foundation of the world who would serve Him. This can be accurately interpreted to be saying that all who would repent(make a willing choice based on hearing the gospel and responding to the call of the Father's invitation) at the preaching of Christ by His servants are the ones who have been predestined.How did He choose us? I believe it's by the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. He saw the rebellion, but He also had a way for us to repent. Those of the Arminianist position--which I am--interpret Ephesians 1 to be speaking corprately.Quote: "If we have free will in receiving Christ, then it implies risk-taking on God's behalf. The risk is in that He lays everything out before us, and we either choose Him or don't. Where there's risk, there's chance, and where there's chance, there's uncertainty. Does God have uncertainty? By no means; to say so would be to say He's not omniscient, and we KNOW He is."Reply: Certainly there is a chance. But what if no one chose to follow Christ? Would He have failed in His mission? Most definately not. Did He come for us or for His own sake? Jesus said that He was here to fulfill the will of His Father. He accomplished that to the uttermost ends. And if no one ever followed Him, then the cross would be our judgement instead of salvation as it will be for all who have and who will reject Christ.I believe that God took a chance in the very beginning by giving man and apparently angels a moral choice. True expression of love *always* invlolves a risk. Only by creating us with a moral choice could we freely love God or we could rebell and therefore bring evil into the world.You can't view God as taking a chance like we would. From our vantage point, taking a chance always involves the unkown, but not so with God, taking a chance is tempered with Him knowing the future in advance. I cannot in good conscience think that God has arbitrarily chosen who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. I believe that He has chosen what kind of person will go to heaven and what kind will go to hell. But as I said in an earlier post; this is a mystery. In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey
I found the following article on predestination, written by Greg Koukl, to be thought provoking, I hope you will enjoy it also; http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/theology/badargum.htm In Christ,Ron
InTheLight,You are correct, that was thought provoking. However, he did not correctly represent the position of a true 5 point Calvinist who would, in fact, claim that God is the author of evil. Wayne Grudem's "Systematic Theology" (a reformed theological book) teaches this very plainly.(This would be what I'm referring to when I say hyper-calvinsism)I did see the point in his view about how God would choose some to salvation all though one could even argue about how that would fall apart. He probably hit it on the head the most when he gave the example of the thief. We have free choices that are tempered by the all knowing foreknowledge of God.The only conclusions that I can come to are that clearly we are a moraly responsible creation with a free will and, equally, God is sovereign and in control of His creation.Studying this subject just makes me think about how far above us are the ways of God.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey
Why don't you click here and see The answer I have.
Here are the last two points from a defense of Arminianism by John Wesley:11. Away, then, with all ambiguity! Away with all expressions which only puzzle the cause! Let honest men speak out, and not play with hard words which they do not understand. And how can any man know what Arminius held, who has never read one page of his writings? Let no man bawl against Arminians, till he knows what the term means; and then he will know that Arminians and Calvinists are just upon a level. And Arminians have as much right to be angry at Calvinists, as Calvinists have to be angry at Arminians. John Calvin was a pious, learned, sensible man; and so was James Harmens(Arminius). Many Calvinists are pious, learned, sensible men; and so are many Arminians. Only the former hold absolute predestination; the latter, conditional. 12. One word more: Is it not the duty of every Arminian Preacher, First, never, in public or in private, to use the word Calvinist as a term of reproach; seeing it is neither better nor worse than calling names? -- a practice no more consistent with good sense or good manners, than it is with Christianity. Secondly. To do all that in him lies to prevent his hearers from doing it, by showing them the sin and folly of it? And is it not equally the duty of every Calvinist Preacher, First, never in public or in private, in preaching or in conversation, to use the word Arminian as a term of reproach? Secondly. To do all that in him lies to prevent his hearers from doing it, by showing them the sin and folly thereof; and that the more earnestly and diligently, if they have been accustomed so to do? perhaps encouraged therein by his own example! In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey
The main objection many have to predestination I think is - If God really did choose certain people to be saved and certain people to not be saved, how is that fair? I don't think God could be called unjust if He chooses certain people to be objects of His mercy and grace and not others. Afterall, we are all sinners and all deserving of hell.For God to pardon certain people in Christ is not something He is obliged to do, nor is it something that sinners deserve. God is sovereign and can choose, out of all fallen mankind, who He wants to save.His ways are higher than our ways, and the Bible says that His choosing doesn't have anything to do with us, but it's according to His own purpose - and that purpose is for Him to know and not necessarily for us to know and understand, whether we agree with that or not. God can do as He pleases and doesn't need our approval.Some people might think that's harsh, but that's just the way it is. If we all got what we really deserved and what was really fair and just, we'd all be in hell already. So God is not being unfair when He makes a decision to save anyone, but He's being merciful that He would save anyone of us at all.There are just some things about God that we have to accept even though we might not totally understand them. If we really love God, we will trust that whatever decisions He makes are good and right even if He chooses not to explain to us why He makes those decisions.I believe that God desires for none to perish, but sadly because of the hardness of their own hearts, some will never accept the glorious gospel we believe.Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely. (Revelation 22)Whosoever means any person who chooses to may come and drink of the living water offered by Christ.I believe that God attempts to influence everyone to choose what's right, but some have hardened their hearts, and so God has to give them over to a reprobate mind.John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. And I will raise him up in the last day.John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.Notice that Jesus says no one can come to him unless the Father draws him, but then he's saying that he desires to draw ALL men unto himself.2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.Peter points out that we should give diligence to make our election sure, which shows that although there is nothing we could ever do to influence God to love us any more than He already does, we still have a personal responsibility to play an active part in our spiritual development.Rom 9:18-19 Everything depends on what God decides to do, and he can either have pity on people or make them stubborn.Someone may ask, "How can God blame us for not obeying the gospel, if he makes us behave in the way he wants us to?"If it was not our fault that we disobeyed the gospel, then why should we be punished for this?Rom 9:20 But, my friend, I ask, "Who do you think you are to question God? Does the clay have the right to ask the potter why he shaped it the way he did?I agree that salvation is all of God and has nothing to do with our own merits. Salvation is not of works and it also demonstrates God's mercy.God didn't have to save any of us, but He did! And that's the wonder of it. Why would He be inclined to save any one of us at all? There's no good reason why any of us should be saved.God's ways are higher than our ways, and there are just some things about God we will never fully understand no matter how long we live.
Predestination says that God has chosen certain people for salvation (we do not know why or whom).The people that receive this election receive grace, the people that do not receive this election receive justice.The big problem I have with this is because of a scripture that clearly goes against this:1 Timothy 2:3-43For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.God cannot desire all men to be saved and yet willfully save only some.
Everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved.Ro. 10 v.13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.2 Thess. 2 v.13I just picked out two Scripture verses at random, that could be used to support each of the sides of the "argument" over Predestination and free choice. There are plenty more which can be piled up on both sides...no shortage of ammunition to keep the battle raging.My understanding is (and, in principle, I'm sure most would agree) that one should not ignore verses in the Bible just because they don't support one's viewpoint. I would go further, and say that we have no right to maintain a dogmatic viewpoint over any issue where there is such obvious support for the other side of the argument, and that we impoverish ourselves by doing so. There is no benefit to be had in holding fast to one opinion if it closes me off to an appreciation of the awesome wisdom of God. No honest Calvinist could deny the existence of Scriptures that support the Arminian argument, and vice-versa.I cannot see a problem with reconciling the two sides. God chooses. That is Bible Truth.People respond and are saved. That is also Bible Truth.I have been involved in street outreach over the years, and have seen people soundly saved as a direct result. The reason I went out on the street was to bring the gospel, as best I could, to those who don't believe. Those who respond to the message do so out of their own free choice, but could not do so without the enabling of the Holy Spirit to convict them of sin, righteousness and judgment, and of the Person of Jesus.I do believe God chooses people, because the Bible says so, but that doesn't stop me wanting to deliver the gospel to those who need it.how can they hear without someone preaching to them?Ro. 10 v.14I am glad I don't feel the need to fully understand this issue, but I do know I cannot hold to one side without accepting the other.
Sorry if I post some things that have already been said. I tried to go through the old posts and can see you’ve been talking about this for a while.I’ve been reading and writing and listening and talking about this subject for a while too.Pardon the bold and underlines. I am most certainly not yelling. I am just pointing with my cyber finger to key passages.Maybe I can be of some use….[First of all… John Calvin didn’t die for my sins. Neither did James Arminius. I could care less if what I say disagrees with anything they wrote.]I see in the Bible that everyone is headed for hell.Romans 310 as it is written, "there is none righteous, not even one; 11 there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; 12 all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one."The question is not “Why does God chose some but exclude the rest?”It is “Why does God choose anybody?”Ephesians 14 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, “…according to the kind intention of His will”.Out of the entire dregs of humanity, none of which were coming to Him or willfully “choosing Him”, He chose some out of the heap to be, not only saved, but His family.2 Thessalonians 2:13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: The next statement that’s said is, “That’s not fair.”” The main objection many have to predestination I think is - If God really did choose certain people to be saved and certain people to not be saved, how is that fair?."I agree.I don’t want what’s “fair”. Do you want what’s “fair”?Sorry but that’s how Paul responds…Romans 914 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? "I believe that God attempts to influence everyone to choose what's right, but some have hardened their hearts, and so God has to give them over to a reprobate mind. John 6:44-4544 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.I’ve usually seen people understand this as a “wooing”. An enticement of their “God shaped hole”.Jesus isn’t really speaking of it being very subtle.“Draw” helko {hel'-ko} Strongs #16701) to draw, drag off 2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impelThe same word is found else where but not translated so softly…James 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court? “Drag” in the NASB. Same word as John 6:44 translated “draw”.John 21:6And He said to them, "Cast the net on the right-hand side of the boat and you will find a catch." So they cast, and then they were not able to haul it in because of the great number of fish. “Haul” in the NASB. Same word, helko, as John 6:44 translated “draw”. The fish were not “wooed” into the net.But what about…John 12:32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."He drags and hauls everybody to Him?I don’t think God means everybody every time when He says “all”.For instance…John 6 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. He “draws” all that are given to Him.And the ones the Father “gives” will come to Him.But what about “Free Will”?”God doesn’t want robots. He wants somebody that willingly chooses Him.”I see choices in the Bible.I even see God holding people accountable for making the wrong choices.Acts 1730 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." But will they?How can they?I remind you of Romans 9.Romans 918 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?We are accountable for our wrong choices.And we all willingly choose wrong.I don’t see Mans will as being all that “free”.Romans 310 as it is written, "there is none righteous, not even one; 11 there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; 12 all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one."Man is a sinner. He is corrupted by sin.He is entirely corrupted. His soul, his body and his mind. (Total Depravity)(By this I don’t mean individuals are as bad as they could be but they are tainted throughout.)A crack addict is free to make choices too.If given a hundred dollars what will he willingly “choose”?He needs help.Man is not splashing at the top of the pool desperately reaching for a life preserver that Christ is holding out. He is floating at the bottom of the pool. Two lungs full of water and unconscious. Christ needed to plunge in and get us. Not just offer us a rescue.Wow. This is pretty robust forum. Look at all it allowed me to say. (Other forums cut you down to so many words.)Again, sorry if I went over what’s already been said but I thought I might toss in some more “chapter and verse”.
It is the election of His grace. What He uses for criteria in that election I know not.But that is why He is God and not you or me.
what about Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved? or the hundreds of other verse's that mention free will. I still hold firm to my beleifs and will accept yours as yours. however, i do ask you try and be a little more open-minded to other theories for the sake of evangelism. (for instance why send us out into the world to preach to all living things, if they are saved anyway?)well gotta go. continue to pray and medatate on His word.
The two men who could most represent the differing views on this subject are George Whitfield (predestination) and John Wesley (freewill). The two exchanged letters arguing for their view against the other for a while and it seemed like they would become enemies. But the love of Christ prevailed for these two brothers.While they didn't work directly together, one would endorse the other's work and would recomend the other to people in the villages and towns throughout England.They even had an agreement that the one who survived the other would preach the funeral of the one who died. George died first and John Wesley was true to his pledge. After the message a lady asked John if he would see George in Heaven to which he replied, "no." She began to fly into a rage when he finished with the statement, "I will not see him because I will not be able to get that close to the Lord's throne."In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey
This discussion is locked.
