Did Jesus come already?

sermonindex Sep 21, 2009

Yes another Eschatology thread. We need to always set the record straight.

Waltern your welcome to interact, but I would prefer that you simply state your case and not accuse me of being wrong. If you can't do that, don't post. Thank you

The purpose of this thread is to show that Jesus was truly a prophet in that what He said would happen did happen and the people to whom He was speaking to He was speaking to them and not in some future "generation".

I am going to present two obscure verses that most people glide over and don't take into consideration, and I will leave the rest up to you beloved to study and let the holy Spirit be your guide and not commentaries.

I know that the title is shocking. The very thought of anyone believing that Christ has already come sounds blasphemous. You know, the Pharisees thought Jesus spoke blasphemy when He told them that God was His Father, making Him equal with God. Notice how they put the Son and the Father as one. Ask yourself this question, if God is my Father and I am one with God, what does that make us? I'll leave that answer between you and our Father.

Now on to the subject at hand. Here are the verses to consider.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

I can hear some of you now, "Read in context". Then by all means read it in context, most of us have bibles.

sermonindex Sep 21, 2009

Have you ever believed something for so long and it became a truth to you? We all have. People will quote a verse that their Mother and Father said was in the bible and that verse is not there, but they will swear on a stack of bibles that it's there so that they can hold on to the memory of their parents instead of finding these things out for themselves. Most people who believe like that will never search for themselves. Why? Because they don't want to believe that their parents were liars, they don't want to face that truth. It's a painful journey to discover that what we have known to be truth has turned out to be error. It's a feeling of being undone, ripped apart, the carpet being pulled out from under us. I used to believe in a Post Tribulation Rapture teaching and I am glad that I no longer of that persuasion because I can't find any of the scriptures to support that lie.

H

Heydave Sep 21, 2009

Hi DeepThinker,

I'm not totally sure what your position is here? You seem to give the impression that you believe Jesus did not predict future events and His future return. I may be mistaking you, so please clarify.

DeepThinker said:

I used to believe in a Post Tribulation Rapture teaching and I am glad that I no longer of that persuasion because I can't find any of the scriptures to support that lie

Do you mean you are now pre-trib? :-) Or do you mean you used to be pre-millenial and are now Amillenial in your thinking?

Need to now what you are saying before we can address the question.

sermonindex Sep 21, 2009

Hi Dave, please refer to the first postings 2 verses, that is the question. But as to your question. I am neither, because there is no teaching of any "Great Tribulation period" purported by the "end time" teachers.

But please go back to the first post and comment on the verses.

M

Miccah Sep 21, 2009

Deepthinker, if you have something that you would like to share or teach on, go ahead. Respectfully, no one can read your mind. Although I know where you stand on this subject, many others do not.

Why don't you give us your interpretation of the scripture that you posted instead waiting for others to reply so you can 'correct' them. ;-)

H

Heydave Sep 21, 2009

In Matthew 24:15-31 Jesus talks about 'great tribulation' (v21). This could not have been fulfilled already as He says His comming will be like lightening flashing across the sky from east to west (v27). Sun and moon darkened and stars falling from Heaven (v29). Every one on earth will see His coming in the clouds and the angels will gather the elect together (v30).I don't think we have seen these things yet, unless we missed it!

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 Paul tells them that the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ has NOT come and not to be deceived by people who say it has.:-( Because He will not come until the Anti Christ is first revealed.

So how do I take the scritures you quoted about the Kingdom of God coming in power and glory during the lifetime of those who were there at the time Jesus said that? Well Jesus could not be referring to His second coming, so He must have been talking about the Kingdom of God coming in Power, beginning at the day of Pentecost. The kingdom of God means the rule of God. This is now to be manifested in and through His church.We see this through Acts, in particular in chapters 1 - 5. But this does not take away from the clear teaching we have about Jesus coming back again after a period of 'great tibulation'.

H

humblyD Sep 21, 2009

Who gave you your name? Just curious.It seems to me you need to do much more listening(and thinking)and alot less speaking. I mean you really come off prideful and unteachable. There are many here who would take the time to explain the bible to you.
including myself.
Peace

L

Leo_Grace Sep 21, 2009

Ok - I'll stick my neck out and try to answer Deepthinker's question from the book of Matthew, and please feel free to correct me (kindly).

In the passage that contains the verse in the book of Matthew, Jesus begins by informing his disciples of what he must do...

~~[i]~~Mt 16:21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.[/i]

But Peter, with his mind set on earthly things, saw only defeat in Jesus' impending death and impulsively declared that Jesus should not die...

~~[i]~~Mt 16:22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”[/i]

Jesus rebuked Peter soundly for his earthly attitude...

~~[i]~~Mt 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, [color=CC3300]“Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”[/color][/i]

Then Jesus began to teach his disciples what he expected of them. He said ~~[b]~~they must die[/b] to themselves in order to gain eternal life with him when he returns...

~~[i]~~Mt 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, [color=CC3300]“If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but ~~[b]~~whoever loses his life for me will find it[/b]. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done."[/color][/i]

Then we come to the final verse which Deepthinker has asked about.

~~[i]~~Mt 16:28 [color=CC3300]"I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will ~~[b]~~not taste death[/b] before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”[/color][/i]

I am therefore faced with three possible interpretations of this verse:

1) Jesus was talking about physical death and returned soon after his resurrection before all his disciples died, but no one noticed all that thunder, lightning, and fire falling from the sky, and the final demolition of the earth is taking an awfully long time, or...

2) Jesus was talking about physical death and, by his grace, there are 2,000+-year-old disciples cooling their heels somewhere, waiting for his return, or...

3) Jesus was talking about "death to self", thereby declaring that some of the disciples would not qualify to enter his kingdom when he returned.

I would go with the third option (and he might have been glaring at Peter when he said this). I think you could analyze the passage from Luke in the same way. In fact, the third option seems clearer in the book of Luke.

sermonindex Sep 21, 2009

To Deepthinker:

Matthew 16:28 states, "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Parallel passages are found in Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27.

The key to having a clear understanding of this is found in what immediately follows each of these verses. Jesus calls Peter, James, and John, takes them up to a high mountain and is transfigured before them while Moses and Elijah come down to discuss His coming death. Consider the things that point to this being the event Jesus referred to in Matthew 16:28.

Jesus "was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light" (Matthew 17:2). This matches the glorified appearance of Christ in Revelation 1:13-18 where "his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength" (Revelation 1:16).

Of Moses and Elijah, the Bible says that they "appeared in glory" (Luke 9:31). They did not just appear in a natural way but "in glory." Colossians 3:4 states, "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." This points directly to the coming of Christ in glory (Matthew 24:30).

When the disciples awoke, they looked at Christ and "saw his glory" (Luke 9:32). This is a very powerful statement. They saw the glorified Christ. They saw Him as King of Kings.

A cloud overshadowed them and the Father said, "This is my beloved Son: hear him" (Luke 9:34-35). This too points to the presence and glory of God in fullness and power.

Jesus told them not to tell of the vision until He had risen from the dead (Matthew 17:9). Ths vision was not for the time that Jesus walked on the earth before His crucifixion. It was a glimpse of His coming kingdom.

[color=990000]~~[b]~~Peter, James, and John received a vision of the future kingdom and glory of Christ. They saw Him coming in His kingdom. It was to this event that Peter referred when he said, "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount." (2 Peter 1:16-18).

These three men were eyewitnesses of the majesty of "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." What a glorious opportunity they had! What a glorious testimony they give!

His actual physical return in Glory is very near![/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

DeepThinker wrote:
Yes another Eschatology thread. We need to always set the record straight.
Waltern your welcome to interact, but I would prefer that you simply state your case and not accuse me of being wrong. If you can't do that, don't post. Thank you
The purpose of this thread is to show that Jesus was truly a prophet in that what He said would happen did happen and the people to whom He was speaking to He was speaking to them and not in some future "generation".
I am going to present two obscure verses that most people glide over and don't take into consideration, and I will leave the rest up to you beloved to study and let the holy Spirit be your guide and not commentaries.
I know that the title is shocking. The very thought of anyone believing that Christ has already come sounds blasphemous. You know, the Pharisees thought Jesus spoke blasphemy when He told them that God was His Father, making Him equal with God. Notice how they put the Son and the Father as one. Ask yourself this question, if God is my Father and I am one with God, what does that make us? I'll leave that answer between you and our Father.
Now on to the subject at hand. Here are the verses to consider.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
I can hear some of you now, "Read in context". Then by all means read it in context, most of us have bibles.

D

dab Sep 21, 2009

HumblyD, Not that I don't understand your question to DeepThinker, but perhaps that could be addressed through a private message, rather than through the post? Just a thought. His post appears to have generated some 'thoughtful' examination.

David

H

humblyD Sep 21, 2009

I merely had a moment of weakness and let slip what we all wanted to say.....................................my bad.

M

Miccah Sep 21, 2009

waltern wrote:

Matthew 16:28 states, "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Parallel passages are found in Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27.
The key to having a clear understanding of this is found in what immediately follows each of these verses. Jesus calls Peter, James, and John, takes them up to a high mountain and is transfigured before them while Moses and Elijah come down to discuss His coming death. Consider the things that point to this being the event Jesus referred to in Matthew 16:28.
Jesus "was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light" (Matthew 17:2). This matches the glorified appearance of Christ in Revelation 1:13-18 where "his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength" (Revelation 1:16).
Of Moses and Elijah, the Bible says that they "appeared in glory" (Luke 9:31). They did not just appear in a natural way but "in glory." Colossians 3:4 states, "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." This points directly to the coming of Christ in glory (Matthew 24:30).
When the disciples awoke, they looked at Christ and "saw his glory" (Luke 9:32). This is a very powerful statement. They saw the glorified Christ. They saw Him as King of Kings.
A cloud overshadowed them and the Father said, "This is my beloved Son: hear him" (Luke 9:34-35). This too points to the presence and glory of God in fullness and power.
Jesus told them not to tell of the vision until He had risen from the dead (Matthew 17:9). Ths vision was not for the time that Jesus walked on the earth before His crucifixion. It was a glimpse of His coming kingdom.
[color=990000]~~[b]~~Peter, James, and John received a vision of the future kingdom and glory of Christ. They saw Him coming in His kingdom. It was to this event that Peter referred when he said, "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount." (2 Peter 1:16-18).
These three men were eyewitnesses of the majesty of "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." What a glorious opportunity they had! What a glorious testimony they give!
His actual physical return in Glory is very near![/color][/b]
Sincerely,
Walter

Great post Walter. :-)

L

Lysa Sep 21, 2009

Walter,

I'm wondering if you EVER write anything yourself? You always demand that everyone support their disagreements scripturally. Well, how about you respond with your own thoughts throughout one whole thread?

Without plagiarizing other people or websites. Because all of what you wrote came from the following website... except for a few words in your second paragraph, it matches this website word for word.

~~[url=http://www.learnthebible.org/matthew-1628.html]~~Learn the Bible: Matthew 16.28[/url]

H

Heydave Sep 21, 2009

Great post Walter.

Yes, Thanks Waltern. I think this makes a lot of sense seeing the verses immediately after the one questioned tells us about the transfiguration.

So 'DeepThinker', please tell us how you interpret this and what point you want to make.

sermonindex Sep 21, 2009

Dear Lysa:

The "teaching" that I posted represents my own personal understanding of the Scripture that Deepthinker referred to.

If you disagree with the message, then please say something to me, because I stand behind it.

If you are trying to crucify the messenger (me) because I used anothers study that agrees with my beliefs, but you can find nothing wrong with the message that I quoted, then you are intent on shooting the messenger (me), rather than attacking the message.

That takes place very often on Sermonidex, doesn’t it?

I surely have no problems with anyone posting anything from anyone, as long as they stand behind what they post. How about you?

Sincerely,

Walter

Lysa wrote:
Walter,
I'm wondering if you EVER write anything yourself? You always demand that everyone support their disagreements scripturally. Well, how about you respond with your own thoughts throughout one whole thread?
Without plagiarizing other people or websites. Because all of what you wrote came from the following website... except for a few words in your second paragraph, it matches this website word for word.

~~[url=http://www.learnthebible.org/matthew-1628.html]~~Learn the Bible: Matthew 16.28[/url]

A

ADisciple Sep 22, 2009

Great post Walter.

I thought so too. :-)

AD

L

Lysa Sep 22, 2009

waltern wrote:
If you are trying to crucify the messenger (me) because I used anothers study that agrees with my beliefs, but you can find nothing wrong with the message that I quoted, then you are intent on shooting the messenger (me), rather than attacking the message.

Walter,

No, I am not trying to crucify you the messenger; I am just trying to get the messenger to see that by using references even a simple, ~~[i]~~"I didn't write this but it represents my own personal understanding of the Scripture that you referred to Deepthinker...."[/i] ~~[b]~~only strengthens[/b] his or her position.

sermonindex Sep 22, 2009

Dear Lysa:

What on earth are talking about? The teaching that I posted is taught by Dr. David Hocking, by Dr. Adrian Rogers, by Pastor Chuck Smith, by Ray Stedman, J. Vernon Magee, Dr. Michael Youssef and many, many other Pastors and men of God. It is not a “new” teaching. It is not "copyrighted". I could have posted Rogers teaching, or any of the others, and it would still be the same teaching, and the same meaning of what I have already posted. This is nothing new. Why is that? Because it is sound Bible Doctrine that has been taught since the beginning.

We have the Gnostics with us today, the same type of Gnostics that we had in the beginning. Men and women who have special “knowledge and revelation” and "understanding", something very "special", something “new” and something "deep". These Gnostics are more than happy to draw others into their lair, to share their special “knowlege” and “gifts” of prophecy and understanding with them. The problem is that once you come into their lair, you will no longer want to have a Bible. Why is that? Because now the words you hear and rely on are the Gnostics twisted words. You no longer have a hunger and a thirst for the Word of God, God's Spirit breated Word, that is only found in the Bible.

I choose to post the tried and the true. If you find fault with it, then respond with Scripture, to prove that what was posted is not accurate. Then we will have something to talk about. What you have done so far is throw stones at me, the Messenger.

You are upset at my post because it does not agree with Deepthinkers analysis.

Post what you think it should be and support it with Scripture. I will look forward to your doing that. Attack the message, not the messenger.

Sincerely,

Walter

Lysa wrote:
waltern wrote:
If you are trying to crucify the messenger (me) because I used anothers study that agrees with my beliefs, but you can find nothing wrong with the message that I quoted, then you are intent on shooting the messenger (me), rather than attacking the message.

Walter,
No, I am not trying to crucify you the messenger; I am just trying to get the messenger to see that by using references even a simple, ~~[i]~~"I didn't write this but it represents my own personal understanding of the Scripture that you referred to Deepthinker...."[/i] ~~[b]~~only strengthens[/b] his or her position.

A

ADisciple Sep 22, 2009

I choose to post the tried and the true.

That's fine, Walter, but Lysa is right. Whenever someone else's material is being used or quoted in a post-- or in anything for that matter-- it should be properly referenced.

It's a matter of respect and common courtesy... toward the person who authored the material, and toward those reading it.

...Unless, surely there isn't a hidden motive, and we are trying to get the glory and the credit ourselves for something that is another's?

AD

sermonindex Sep 22, 2009

To ADisciple:

I only post for one reason on the Sermonindex website. What is that reason? ~~[b]~~To post Sound Doctrine—that’s it.[/b] I am not taking “credit” for anything. How can I? It is God’s Spirit breathed Word!

The things that I post are found in the Bible (and the many notes that I have throughout my own Bibles), as well as my Bible study notes that I have kept over the past 40 years. Today much of this same information is found on the internet. If the information is copyrighted, then I site the source.

Sincerely,

Walter

ADisciple wrote:
I choose to post the tried and the true.
That's fine, Walter, but Lysa is right. Whenever someone else's material is being used or quoted in a post-- or in anything for that matter-- it should be properly referenced.
It's a matter of respect and common courtesy... toward the person who authored the material, and toward those reading it.
...Unless, surely there isn't a hidden motive, and we are trying to get the glory and the credit ourselves for something that is another's?
AD