How to respond to heretics?

It may seem simplistic to some, but I think it best to let scripture talk rather than rely on the wisdom of man.

[i]2Ti 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.[/i]

The only way to respond to heresy is to
confront with the truth of God's Word!!

the Word of God promises mercy only to those who give up their sins.

So what happens if we die without one given up?

For instance, let's say I didn't realize that what is sin to me at this point in my walk was sin five years ago. What if I had been hit by a bus?

Either Christ's death was enough to pay for ALL of my sins(past, present, and future) or it wasn't.

Better yet, God no longer deals with me according to my sin because I made righteous in Christ. Therefore my sin may bring chastening, but NEVER damnation.

That's the Good News, it isn't good advice(i.e. "you better get rid of all your sin") that sounds more like, "you better shout, you better not cry, you better not pout, I'm telling you why".

Something happened two thousand years ago that has dealt with my sin the moment I put faith in Him and His work; "he that knew no sin was made to be sin for me, so that I would be made the righteousness of God in Him" 2 Corinthians 5:21

So either Christ's death handled it or it didn't

roaringlamb wrote:

the Word of God promises mercy only to those who give up their sins.

So what happens if we die without one given up?

For instance, let's say I didn't realize that what is sin to me at this point in my walk was sin five years ago.

IOW, what sin would someone do for years and not know about it until the Holy Spirit puts His finger on it?

What if I had been hit by a bus?

Either Christ's death was enough to pay for ALL of my sins(past, present, and future) or it wasn't.

Better yet, God no longer deals with me according to my sin because I'm made righteous in Christ. Therefore my sin may bring chastening, but NEVER damnation.

furthermore, you don't have to sin.

That's the Good News, it isn't good advice(i.e. "you better get rid of all your sin") that sounds more like, "you better shout, you better not cry, you better not pout, I'm telling you why".

Or does that sound like, "you better shout, you better not cry, you better not pout, I'm telling you why"

Something happened two thousand years ago that has dealt with my sin the moment I put faith in Him and His work; "he that knew no sin was made to be sin for me, so that I would be made the righteousness of God in Him" 2 Corinthians 5:21

So either Christ's death handled it or it didn't

furthermore, You don't have to sin, therefore, you can be sinnless.

Or are you saying that you can't stop sinning?

If you are, you're basically telling God that.
If he "knew" that you couldn't stop sinning, He wouldn't demand it.

However, since He commands you to stop sinning, you should, right now.

In a way, your calling Him a liar by saying that you to stop sinning:
He says that you can stop sinning by commanding you to, and here you are saying that God is wrong, you can't stop sinning.

Why is it you think that you can not do that which God wishes?
God commands us not to sin, but here you are saying that you must sin; saying that you can't help it; saying that His commands are impossible

Or are you saying that you can't stop sinning?

Since this is the main question surrounding the other points of your questions, I will answer it rather than go point by point through the others.

In a nutshell, NO, I cannot.

I say this because I know that the Law demands that I love the Lord with ALL of my heart, and love my neighbor as myself(meaning with the same care and concern that I give myself).

On top of this, there are the sins of omission(the things I know I should do, but neglect) that are just as bad as the sins of commission(the actual sins I commit).

Consider these two verses to see the extent of sin in man-
"For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23 ESV)

"So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin." (James 4:17 ESV)

I don't use these as an excuse to sin as the Holy Spirit is conforming me daily, but the reality is that sin is much more than you are making it.

The Law itself shows that we are incapable of not sinning. For it demands perfect obedience 24/7 365 days a year.

This is why justification is the crucial point of the Good News. It does not so much change the person as much as it changes the view of that person.(Please note that change is inevitable as the person has been made alive and has a new priority and principle driving them).

For example if you say something that I don not agree with, I would ask you to "justify" what you have said. I am not asking you to change what you said, but moreso change my view of what you said so that I would see it differently. This of course is what God has done in Christ. All who have faith in Him are seen differently by the Father. They are loved and are no longer alienated from Him.

As I said before, sin does not rule me, nor does its death have a hold on me any longer, it exists in me as one who would try to overthrow the reign of the King, but it cannot.

I will be chastened, and this will further sanctify me, but I am no longer condemned and no longer subject to God's wrath.

I fear that you may be lessening the Law to make yourself appear righteous(I could be wrong), but once the Law hits home, you will never try to be right by what you do or don't do, instead you will rest in Christ's righteousness alone.

In light of all of this, let me ask you a question, have you sinned today? Not by your standards, but by what God says is sin, things like doubting His faithfulness, feeling better than others, not loving your neighbor in the same way you love yourself(by the way, if you ate today, but didn't feed another without food, you broke this). So have you sinned today?

If so, does this not show that you too sin even though God commands you not to?

don't call your self a sinner

I am, and I am a saint. Or if you like, I am a loved failure.

Better, I am "simul justus et pecator"(simultaneously justified and sinful).

I know we will go round and round about this, because we have differing views of the Fall and its implications, but just so you know, I still value you as a brother and that is more important than our squabbles. :-D

roaringlamb wrote:

Either Christ's death was enough to pay for ALL of my sins(past, present, and future) or it wasn't.

I hear people use that phrase down here in the Bible belt and for once and for all, I'd really like somebody to provide the Scripture reference for our "future sins" being paid for, where it's found.

It is not my intention to argue with you (unless you infer future sins upon an innocent verse!) (huge grin) Naw, seriously... [b]where in the Word of God it actually states that our future sins have already been forgiven.[/b] Because I've yet to find it myself but perhaps I wasn't looking in the right place.

I will thank you ahead of time!

God bless,

where in the Word of God it actually states that our future sins have already been forgiven

You may be right in saying that the wording is not there, but that is what justification is. It is a legal declaration that God for the sake of Jesus Christ no longer holds my sin against me(past, present, and future).

So maybe it is not right to say He died for future sins [i]per se[/i] but the point is clear in the doctrine of justification.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion I have created. Sometimes language is tricky :-)

This is why Paul is so quick to point out that no one who is truly born again will respond by saying, "oh, now I can sin all I want to!" as once the Spirit is in a person, there is a battle as it says in Galatians, the flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary to each other.

It is also why those who are chastened for their sin should rejoice, because they are being treated as true children and not illegitimate children.

Hi Lysa,

1 Peter 3:18 says "Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit",

This means that all our sins are forgiven. That Christ blood has washed the stain of sin and made us as white as snow and righteous before the father (positionally). However we still need to repent and seek his mercy on a daily basis for sins committed against him. This is our daily washing of sin and needed in our pursuit of (practical) righteousness though we are clean. THough we will continue to sin untill he calls us we are assured that IF we repent of our sins we can be forgiven of all sins in the past, present and the future.

Also consider
Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption throught his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance wieht the riches of God's grace

John 1:29 says "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world"!

Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to GOd from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God.

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Christ death on the cross atoned for all our sins and has appeased the righteous wrath of God once and for all. We no longer need to atone (or sacrifice bull, goats,,etc.) for our sin because Christ death is sufficient to cover for all of our sins. We have positional forgiveness for all our sins but like I've mentioned before we need to repent of all sins committed to experience that forgiveness on a daily basis.

Hope that helps a little.

Many of those who Jesus died for will go to hell

Allow me to push on this a little if you will.

Where in Scripture do you find this? I'm curious to see how someone whom Christ died for and intercedes for can end up perishing?

To me that makes Christ's death pointless, as in it didn't really accomplish what it was meant to do and would kind of be in contradiction to Christ saying that He would give His life for the sheep and that none that were given to Him by the Father would be lost.

Can you help me see your position?

Ok so let's start with the Prophets that you quoted. Who were those words spoken to? Was it not people who were part of the Covenant community of God? Was it not calling the people of God to return to Him?

Now granted there are passages in the Prophets that speak of a coming time when the Messiah would come.

It is interesting that you left off this verse-
"Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make [b]many[/b] to be accounted righteous, and [b]he shall bear their iniquities[/b]." (Isaiah 53:11 ESV)

Notice it says "many", and that the iniquities of this "many" will have their sins removed. No mention of all.

The Matthew passage says nothing at all about Christ dying for anyone.

The Luke 2 passage says nothing about Christ dying for the world.

The John passage simply means that the Lamb of God was taking away sin not just the Jews or Israel, but for all nations and peoples.

Romans 5:15 is interesting because it says "many", but not "all" and is referring to those under the headship of the two heads being presented; Adam and Christ.

I'm going to jump down to the 2 Peter passage as it usually gets used in these talks. Please look at the word for Lord. It is not the word "kurios" which is used for Christ. It is "despotes" and this passage is telling of false prophets among you as there were among them. Of course we need to see who the "them" is. Would it not be Israel?

If so, who bought them from Egypt? and were all of those who were bought then saved?

Revelation 3:20 is not written to unbelievers, it is written to a Church, so it doesn't apply.

Now allow me to post some Scriptures for you to think over.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Notice that in these two verses, those who come will be raised up.

But what is even more amazing is this verse in between the two-
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

None that have been given to Christ will be lost. This seems to fit perfectly with Romans 8:28-30

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

Notice those whom He predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ will be called, justified, and glorified. Hence the past tense usage of the verbs.

There are more, but I think these make a good case for discussion.

You believe in limited atonement and eternal security?

I believe that those whom Christ died for will be saved, and they will persevere to the end. I don't believe in what is commonly called OSAS as too many mistake that to mean they don't have to be regenerated or bear fruit to be saved.

I believe that Christ came to purchase a people from every tribe, tongue, and nation, and that those people will make it to the end because He that began a good work in them is faithful to complete it.

I try to stay away from the terminology of Limited Atonement as it is more often a source of argument, and seems to automatically turn the conversation into a Calvinist/Arminian debate rather than glorying in Christ who has redeemed a people for Himself. Of which both you and I are a part of, and in that I rejoice no matter our differences on theological ideas.